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The effort needed to get the ban revocation recognized in all communities he felt would be too overwhelming for him to accomplish. But he said if he could have done so, it would have brought a lot of good to Klal Yisroel.
That’s right. No shidduch crisis in the Litvishe/Yeshivishe world.
Undoubtedly one of the benefits.
Can’t a woman stipulate in her ketubah that he can only marry another wife if she agrees?
I doubt you would find any frum woman who would agree to this. I know there is no way I would stay with my husband if he took on another wife.
The effort needed to get the ban revocation recognized in all communities he felt would be too overwhelming for him to accomplish
That probably means there was a lot of oppostition from other Gedolim at the time.
Also the Baal Shem Tov never spoke about the ban revocation so that definitely souldn’t effect the Chassidim even if it would go through with the Misnagdim (or whatever they were called at that time).
The precise reasons why the ban revocation didn’t go through doesn’t matter. The bottom line is that Hashem guides His world and He was the one that didn’t want the ban revocation to go through.
I know there is no way I would stay with my husband if he took on another wife.
I don’t know if many women would stay with their husbands.
Let’s not make rash assumptions. All you just said is based on your unsupported assumptions. Aside from no one even being close to his stature in his generation, the facts are none of the Gedolim opposed him. The overwhelming effort he referred to was regarding the hamon hoam.
The Baal Shem Tov took no position on this matter.
And many Sefardim, Yemenites, and other fine fully Torah observant Yidden have had multiple wives as recently as even after the State of Israel was founded after WWII, when they brought their multiple wives from their home countries to Eretz Yisroel.
And many Sefardim, Yemenites, and other fine fully Torah observant Yidden have had multiple wives as recently as even after the State of Israel was founded after WWII, when they brought their multiple wives from their home countries to Eretz Yisroel.
Now even the Sefardim and Yemenites don’t take more than one wife.The Baal Shem Tov took no position on this matter.
clearheaded, they don’t out of respect for the civil laws of the states they live in. If the civil law changed, they would have no religious objections to it, and would resume having multiple wives.
The Baal Shem Tov took no position on this matter.
That’s what I said in different wording.
Again, the precise reasons why the ban revocation didn’t go through doesn’t matter. The bottom line is that Hashem guides His world and He was the one that didn’t want the ban revocation to go through.
True. Hashem also wanted the holocaust to occur. The point you are making doesn’t itself indicate either are a good thing.
clearheaded, they don’t out of respect for the civil laws of the states they live in
Wrong, I know of at least one Yemenite with living in America with two wives. But again, that’s phasing out. Yemenite women today in civilized countries would not stand for it.
One can always say the second wife is female freind living in the same house and be married to her according to halacha.
In addition if polygamy would be the accepted practice of frum Jews they would definitely be able to practice it under freedom of religion, as you yourself pointed out yesterday.
There is definitely another religious group in America other than the Mormons you mentioned practicing polygamy. I remember reading about it, I just don’t remember the name of the group.
But again, if it’s not the accepted practice of our times, it’s because Hashem willed it to be so.
Wrong? You are saying that I’m wrong since they still have multiple wives? Okay.
It is “phasing out”, because of civil laws, not any religious objections.
It would be doable, technically, but there would be trouble. Even the Mormons who the government more or less tolerates, the government from time to time starts up with them.
(Other than the Mormons, some African immigrants do it also somewhat underground.)
True. Hashem also wanted the holocaust to occur. The point you are making doesn’t itself indicate either are a good thing.
A believing Jew knows that whatever Hashem does is good.
That is absolutely true. The holocaust was a good thing — we just don’t understand how. When Moshiach comes we will know why the holocaust, all the pograms, the Inquisition, etc. were all good things.
OK, lets get back to the original point of this thread. How do we prevent prevtable divorces? [we won’t debate what is or is not preventable as we’ve hashed at that]
Teaching brides and grooms about communication and not being selfish is priority number one.
Teaching brides and grooms about communication and not being selfish is priority number one.
I totally agree with you on that one.
I’m glad you didn’t include love as priority number one as well, although love in a marriage is ideal.
Clearheaded, I don’t think everyone needs to be in love to make their marriage work. I needed it though. I also recognize that loveless marriages can be hard to live in.
I think selfishness in marriage is also really hard. I know because I am naturally a selfish person. It has taken a lot of work on my part to become a better spouse. My husband is naturally amazing at it. I’ve learnt a lot.
Both spouses should constantly be trying to anticipate the needs of the other spouse in an effort to improve their marriage. The more you give to someone (assuming its reciprocated in some way), the better the marriage. I’m not talking about “stuff” (like jewelry or cars), I’m talking about the entire picture.
We know that what Hashem does for us is always for the good, but that does not mean that is WAS something good. A potch on a child’s rear might also be for his own good, if necessary, but it is not an intrinsically good thing to hit a child, even on a padded spot. The Holocaust was NOT a good thing, but from hashem’s perspective and reasoning, we know it was for a good reason, to which we are as yet not privy.
We know that what Hashem does for us is always for the good, but that does not mean that is WAS something good
…but that does not mean we are AWARE of the good in the suffering.
I think most people nowadays are being brought up as selfish human beings. This causes a lot of friction or divorce in the frum community. When just a generation or two ago most Jews didn’t have the means to spoil their children, so they had much better chidren, which in turn these children had much better marriages.
When just a generation or two ago most Jews didn’t have the means to spoil their children, so they had much better chidren, which in turn these children had much better marriages.
I’m not necessarily challenging you on this, but I think it also needs to be pointed out that people like to wax nostalgic about the past. I’m not necessarily convinced that today’s kids are worse than those of two generations ago.
The Wolf
Wolf -How many teenagers you know that don’t own cellphones or other electronic devices? It’s the “Me” generation and this can affect the person’s marriage!
How many teenagers you know that don’t own cellphones or other electronic devices?
My kids don’t have cell phones — and they’re all teens.
That aside, there are two important points to make:
1. Having a cellphone/electronic device does not equate to being selfish or having an atitude of “me, me, me”
2. It’s an unfair comparison anyway since there were no cellphones/electronic devices two generations ago.
The Wolf
…but I think it also needs to be pointed out that people like to wax nostalgic about the past. I’m not necessarily convinced that today’s kids are worse than those of two generations ago.
That’s true. Before the Holocaust thousands of young Jews abandoned Yiddishkeit for Socialim, Communism, and Zionism.
People make themselves unhappy by thinking that it’s always better out there, whether it’s marriage or Yiddishkeit, but it’s not a new phenomenon.
On the other hand, people today are used to getting whatever they feel is a necessesity, even if it’s not and they can’t afford it, whether it’s material goods (with the swipe of a credit card) or a better marraige.
Wolf -Why do most (not yours) kids have it -because they need it or they want it? I’m not saying as a kid you can’t have things just because you want it, but there has to be a limit. I see very few parents nowadays with the means, saying no to their children. The sky is the limit.
“My kids don’t have cell phones — and they’re all teens.”
Wow. Somethign I can finaly agree with you about.
clearheaded the difference is that pre wwI it was all about ideoligies. People were mamish willing to die for what they stood for. Today its all about comfort and gashmius. Which in a way, america has made its ideology about THAT exactly. (liberalism – have to say it’s ok and put concious at rest so they can do whatever they want, goal and reasoning of everything is for FUN, etc)
Health i agree 100% no matter how much someone can afford there’s no reason to spoil kids with everything they could ever need – (actually – e/th they could ever WANT) i once heard someone say it very well – “instead of saying why not?, how about – why yes? “
or “whats wrong about that?” how about “what’s RIGHT about it!”
“clearheaded the difference is that pre wwI it was all about ideoligies. People were mamish willing to die for what they stood for. Today its all about comfort and gashmius”
And therefore? The end result is the same – when it’s ALL about my wants then a person makes bad choices.
Wolf -Why do most (not yours) kids have it -because they need it or they want it?
In truth, probably some combination of the two.
I’m not saying as a kid you can’t have things just because you want it, but there has to be a limit.
I agree with you
I see very few parents nowadays with the means, saying no to their children. The sky is the limit.
I don’t believe the problem is nearly as expansive as you make it out to be. Are there spoiled kids today? Certainly – just as there were spoiled kids in the previous generation. But just because someone has a cell phone or an electronic device, or even something that’s completely discretionary does not make them spoiled — nor does it make their parents bad parents for giving it to them.
It’s all in the balance. No parent should say “yes” all the time — but it’s just as true that no parent should say “no” all the time either. You’ve got to find the right balance for your children and your family.
The Wolf
clearheaded – nothing your 100% right. it’s just very sad to see such a great yerida
wolf – WHAT R U TALKING ABT? the previous gen were MUCH less spoiled than we are today. Just a gen./2 older than us – what they grew up with, how hard they had to work, the luxuries and extras we have was probably beyond their wildest imaginations! Someone just told me that their grandmother told them that the toys she had for her kids were the finished spools of thread from the factory she worked in. (they were shaped like a triangle cylinder) We are SOOOOO spoiled! and it’s TERRIBLe chinuch for kids to grow up and get w/e they “need” (today needs are usually wants)yes its a balance
what they grew up with, how hard they had to work, the luxuries and extras we have was probably beyond their wildest imaginations!
It’s not fair to make a comparison between those who grew up in poverty and those who grew up in the middle/upper class.
If you want to make a comparison, compare people who grew up in the middle/upper class two generations ago with those who grew up in that same class today. I guarantee you those in the middle and upper classes two generations ago did not have spools of thread as their main toys.
The Wolf
You also can’t compare this generation to your grandmother’s regarding electronic devices; THERe WERE NONE back then!!!!!!
You also can’t compare this generation to your grandmother’s regarding electronic devices; THERe WERE NONE back then!!!!!!
That’s right. If you look earlier in the thread, you’ll see that I made that very same point.
The Wolf
The previous generation was definitely much less spoiled because there wasn’t that much materialism back then or the means to aquire them. But that doesn’t mean they didn’t have their own unique challenges that each generation has.
Wolf -“It’s all in the balance. No parent should say “yes” all the time — but it’s just as true that no parent should say “no” all the time either. You’ve got to find the right balance for your children and your family.”
And I agree with you! But nowadays, people are more spoiled than previous generations. If you want to say because most people in previous generations were poor -that’s fine.
And I agree with you! But nowadays, people are more spoiled than previous generations. If you want to say because most people in previous generations were poor -that’s fine.
That basically amounts to saying that a higher standard of living = spoiled. I hardly think that’s the case.
The Wolf
There was plenty of materialism in previous generations.
Instead of cars they had fine horses to ride or to pull fancy expensive carriages.
Without referigerators, good food was more expensive to buy and keep and store and prepare so that too, was more for the rich then the poor.
Instead of cleaning equipment they had servants (who back then were more like slaves working for pittance wages and who could be ordered around almost like the families property).
The more servents the more prestige the people who had them had.
They had huge fancy houses on many acres of land, or alternately, top floors of city buildings that were exclusive and only the wealthy could get into.
Instead of doing hard sweaty work they could travel to cooler climates for summer and relax.
They had sailing yachts and fine fancy furniture and chandliers and huge amounts of expensive jewlry to show off.
And of course just like today, there was a very big difference between the clothes of a poor person and the fancy expensive hand made clothes of those could afford to show they “had good taste” in clothes.
Just because they did not have Ipods and high speed internet access, hardly means there was nothing to strive for materially speaking or that there was nothing for a poor person to be jealous of (if he did not have enough bitachon, just like one might struggle with, today).
In some respects the rich had more then we can have today.
They were able to buy vast tracts of land to view and go horseback riding through while these days it is considered
to be “too showy” even for rich people to have that much in a way that everyone can know about it.
It can still be done today, but it often brings on much criticism, even from other rich people.
There is a cherem against breaking an engagement. See Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 50:6) and (Y.D. 236:6) and the Taz. See also the Maharsham (volume 4).
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