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Wolf, I though the implication from the teshuva’s I cited were clear about abuse. If there is incontrovertible evidence of continuing beatings it is grounds for divorce. Regarding the exact R”T, I’ll have to find mareh makom.
Wolf, I though the implication from the teshuva’s I cited
Ah, but I didn’t see the Teshuva. I only looked up the perek of SA that you cited.
Nonetheless, it’s then obvious that the Mechaber’s list of reasons for grounds for divorce are not exhaustive.
It should also be noted that the Mechaber is obviously only talking about where one of the parties is contesting the divorce. He makes no mention in that perek about where the breakup is mutual.
The Wolf
Nonetheless, it’s then obvious that the Mechaber’s list of reasons for grounds for divorce are not exhaustive.
The teshuvos cited are based on S”A.
The teshuvos cited are based on S”A.
Fair enough. Can you please provide the source of R. Moshe’s teshuva as well?
The Wolf
If you get into technicalities here, you’ll never get finished. I think we need to use the fifte S”A here and that means if there is physical, emotional and verbal abuse in the marriage then a person needs to get a divorce ASAP.
Otherwise, one can try to work things out and if there are no satisfactory results, one needs to realize that that is a challenge from Hashem to make them grow spiritually.
I know someone is going to ask me “what about abuse maybe one can grow spiritually from that situation as well?”
Living with an abuser is not called living, period. Abusers take away the chius from a person so that not only can’t a person grow, but they are not living either.
The only way one can grow from an abusive marriage is to become strong and have the courage to end such a terrible situation.
Apparently the Rosh Yeshiva quoted by another poster earlier in this thread disagrees with you. The R”Y told the wife to stay married.
Halacha is full of “technicalities.” Every technicality is relevant and binding.
Kasha,
Just out of curiosity, by what logic do you come to the conclusion that a wife can force a get if her husband smells bad but not if he screams, yells, rants and raves at her all day and makes her days a living hell?
The Wolf
Apparently the Rosh Yeshiva quoted by another poster earlier in this thread disagrees with you. The R”Y told the wife to stay married
With all due respect, I believe that that poster is not privy to all the details in that story.
I think no one really knows what’s going on in someone’s marriage even if one spouse realys information to their freind because
nobody says to their freinds the whole truth and nothing but the truth about these things, especially if they are the guilty party and don’t want to admit it.
Halacha is full of “technicalities.” Every technicality is relevant and binding
And where exactly did I say halacha is not binding?
Halacha dictates every moment of a Jew’s life, however as human beings Hashem gave us common sense too to know how to go anout our BASIC human reqirements without having to call our dayanim.
Maybe your common sense is different than mine. My common sense tells me that if someone hurts me deliberately on a constant basis, I stay as far away from that person as I stay from a shark.
I agree with clearheaded, there is no black and white in these situations. However, one thing is forsure that when a couple gets divorced it’s usually not out of choice but rather a must. We need to encourage those that are divorced and treat them regularly and not be so quick to judge them in a negative why. We can’t think we are smarter than them and greater than them and give them our ideas that they should have not gotten divorced.
People are so quick to take the honor to be Mesader Kedushin but not so quick to be mesadir a get. People are afraid to encourage people to get divorced when appropriate and if not done it can be detremental to them. Lets stop ourselves from creating any further stigma that there is already and be encouraging to those that need it.
The truth is that I made a mistake in saying that you can’t believe someone when they said they are being abused.
I should really have said that I don’t know about that situation.
In any case, a story where Rabbonim say that the wife should try to stick it out shows how important it is to try to stay in a marriage and therefore I think they are testing the wife to see if it’s THAT bad as she makes it to be. But I have no doubt that if she insists that she is being abused (if she is) and it is having a negative effect on her (and maybe her kids if she has any) the Rabbonim would support her if she insists on a divorce.
Sometimes one can’t say who’s right, right away. It takes some time to analyze a situation therefore it’s important for the abused spouse to gather their courage to do the right thing and insist on a divorce.
Wolf, I’m not sure what your hockin in chink about.
clearheaded, the point of the R”Y is clear. Nor is it innovative or a bombshell. Even in abuse cases. You ensure the preservation of a Jewish marriage at all costs. Period. Divorce is an absolute last last resort in all cases, to be avoided. Sometimes that may not be possible, but that is always the goal.
In a gittin case, dayanim always need to be involved. “Your common sense” plays second fiddle to the “technicalities” of halacha.
The truth is that I made a mistake in saying that you can’t believe someone when they said they are being abused… I have no doubt that if she insists that she is being abused (if she is)
Look at the previous page. I cited the Noda B’Yehuda who says rather clearly you cannot accept her word alone that she is being abused. This is halacha l’maasa.
and insist on a divorce.
One cannot “insist” on something they are not halachicly entitled to.
happy123, no one disagrees that once divorced, the couple should receive full community support.
Kasha, if you are married, you must have a very happy marriage, and not know people who are miserable.
I b”h am very happily married but know cases of a few divorces that needed to happen. I am thankful that halacha allows divorce.
If I were in a bad marriage, I would choose agunah over living with a man I couldn’t be with. A woman can rarely demand a divorce, but a man can generally grant one.
Kasha, so if we agree on the point that once a couple is divorced we should give those individuals full support and we are not going to judge them, then what is your point in any further discussion in this forum? There is abvoiusly no room for us to discuss what we think is acceptable as a valid reason for divorce if we are ONLY going to judge those that are divorced in a POSITIVE way and that they did whatever they can to savor the marriage, but it was not possible.
Divorce is an absolute last last resort in all cases, to be avoided.
Kasha, this sentence is contradictory, as I think that is what you are relaying is.
In a gittin case, dayanim always need to be involved. “Your common sense” plays second fiddle to the “technicalities” of halacha.
Exactly. That is why there are so many divorces.
Tehcnicalities of halacha and in this case divorce, have nothing to do whether we apply them in a situation where one has used their common sense in effort to obtain it (the divorce).
One cannot “insist” on something they are not halachicly entitled to.
Sure you can. People going to bais din and losing their cases proves it.
You can insist. Of course you many not get what you’re insisting on. 🙂
The Wolf
“this sentence is contradictory”
No, it is to be avoided. As I stated, sometimes it is unavoidable.
“That is why there are so many divorces.”
No, that isn’t why. The reason why there are so many divorces, is for very petty (avoidable) reasons.
Wolf, I’m not sure what your hockin in chink about.
The Mechaber states that a woman is allowed to insist on a divorce if her husband develops bad body odor.
That being the case, by what logic can you say that we force a woman to stay with a husband who is emotionally abusive and makes her life a living hell, yet allow her to insist on a divorce for something like body odor?
The Wolf
Where did I, or anyone, ever say that?
Where did I, or anyone, ever say that?
Perhaps I misunderstood you.
Is emotional abuse (constant yelling, name-calling, debasing, etc.) grounds for divorce?
The Wolf
That’s a shaila for a Talmid Chochom. I would imagine it is situation dependent and whether it is constant.
One time when speaking to Rav Schach, someone used the common expression, that a posek or rabbi must use the “fifth volume of Shulchan Aruch.” This phrase is supposed to convey the idea that although the S”A only has 4 volumes, one also must apply common sense and logical insight — “the 5th volume” — when issuing a halachic ruling in cases that are not clear cut in the “other” 4 volumes.
Rav Schach objected to the phrase. “Although the idea that underlies the saying is true, one must be extremely careful with his choice of words. We students of the Torah know that this is only a clever idiomatic expression, and that the S”A only has 4 sections. But today, when there are so many people who bend and corrupt the halacha to suit their own individual versions of Judaism, it is not worthwhile to this expression at all, for baalei battim are liable to understand from that there is a license to add or to adopt the rulings of the S”A to one’s own liking. They are likely to form the impression that whenever a dayan or rabbi issues any ruling at all it is all based on his subjective self-devised ‘fifth volume’, and therefore not binding. You see, as a result of the careless use of a witty expression, it is possible to impart a false notion to many people, and it is better to avoid any expression that bears the possibility of having a negative impact.”
I would imagine it is situation dependent and whether it is constant.
Assume it is.
The Wolf
I’m still not a T”C. 🙂
No, that isn’t why. The reason why there are so many divorces, is for very petty (avoidable) reasons.
If a couple got an halachically valid get for petty reasons then are you saying that halacha says that if they did get a divorce it is AUTOMATICALLY a divorce that is for serious reasons?
In other words, all those who got a valid divorce did so for valid reasons, like an absence of love in the marriage?
So then why are we having this debate at all? This trend of a large part of klal Yisroel getting divorced could continue(and probably get worse as these situations usually do) as long as the get is halachicaly valid.
clearheaded, your question isn’t clear.
You mean her question is a kasha.
Kasha, if the basis is how do we prevent unnecessary divorces that’s different than saying most divorces are preventable. The only way I know 100% to prevent divorce is to not get married.
First, I think both spouses need to WANT to have a happy marriage. They need to communicate effectively. They need to have the same short and long term goals. They need to learn to live unselfishly. They need to learn to not take advantage of their spouses weaknesses. They need to learn to prioritize in all aspects: money, time, goals, happiness. And they need to be compatable. If you do all these things for each other, I think love, in most cases, will come.
Kasha my last post wasn’t clear what my question to you was.
If you are saying that if dayanim are involved in the process of get then my common sense doesn’t apply. Haowever, that contradicts with what you are saying that people are getting a get for petty reasons.
So are there divorces for petty reasons they all have a valid get, or not?
A get can be technically valid even though the reason the couple got divorced was very petty and avoidable.
A get can be technically valid even though the reason the couple got divorced was very petty and avoidable.
So if one can obtain and HALACHICALY VALID get for petty reasons (remember an halachicaly valid get for petty reasons) don’t you think Hashem created the amazing tool of common sense to know IN WHICH INSTANCE a get should be an option?
Absolutely.
That being said, one must recognize that their idea of common sense might conflict with halacha.
Kasha, so if we agree on the point that once a couple is divorced we should give those individuals full support and we are not going to judge them, then what is your point in any further discussion in this forum? There is abvoiusly no room for us to discuss what we think is acceptable as a valid reason for divorce if we are ONLY going to judge those that are divorced in a POSITIVE way and that they did whatever they can to savor the marriage, but it was not possible.
Mods, is there s/t wrong with my post? you can edit it if you like. i just want to make a Clear point that we all should not think we can judge those that get divorced and we are not the ones to decide what makes a valid reason because you cannot judge someone unless you are in their shoes, and we never will be!
Okay, kasha if a valid get could be obtained for petty reasons then a valid get could certainly be obtained for abusive reasons.
happy123, there is no judging. We are talking theoretical, not any particular case. Furthermore, we are discussing the future, not so much the past. Meaning, encouraging the continuation and preservation of current and future Jewish marriages, and discouraging unnecessary and counterproductive divorces.
clearheaded, there are two separate issues at hand. 1. Is the GET a valid technical document, 2. Should a GET be issued. They are to an extent distinct issues from each other.
As a technical matter regarding point 1, one may be able to actualize a legal GET document for no reason whatsoever. It is then a halachicly effective divorce. (Similarly with Kedushin. If a 13 year old boy playfully puts a ring on a 12 year old neighborhood girl, and says “Harei At…”, he may have halachicly married his neighbor – although this scenerio is obviously problematic.)
Nevertheless as far as point 2 is concerned, even though such a GET is technically valid in the eyes of halacha, it may have been halachicly wrong to have been done, and there even may be penalties involved for having done so. (i.e. if a husband violates Chrem Rabbeinu Gershom prohibiting him from divorcing his wife against her will. Even though the divorce he gave her was halachicly effective.)
Kasha, read my post on how to prevent divorces. Please comment:-)
First, I think both spouses need to WANT to have a happy marriage. They need to communicate effectively. They need to have the same short and long term goals. They need to learn to live unselfishly. They need to learn to not take advantage of their spouses weaknesses. They need to learn to prioritize in all aspects: money, time, goals, happiness. And they need to be compatable. If you do all these things for each other, I think love, in most cases, will come.
Clearly we are dealing with one spouse that is UNWILLING to do anything or cooperate…. Also, Personally I feel that a person in such a marriage should be coaxed and encouraged to leave. Many times you find that the spouse is soo abused that they dont have the strength to demand a divorce when they really should. Nothing good can come out of such a marriage, not for the spouses and not for the kids..
Also, when either husband or wife wants to get a divorce and they are determined to do so, Is a rav able to say halacha recognized your reason as being invalid therefore, you cannot get divorced?
happy123, there is no judging. We are talking theoretical, not any particular case. Furthermore, we are discussing the future, not so much the past. Meaning, encouraging the continuation and preservation of current and future Jewish marriages, and discouraging unnecessary and counterproductive divorces
that being said, I do not understand how you are encouraging the continuation of Jewish marriages,rather i think you are making statements as to why divorce is counterproductive and usually happens over petty things-which means you ARE judging the theoretical aspect of a divorce to be able to say those statements. (and not any particular case, in the past present or future)
Also, when either husband or wife wants to get a divorce and they are determined to do so, Is a rav able to say halacha recognized your reason as being invalid therefore, you cannot get divorced?
That’s what a lot of the discussion above is about. The answer is, depending on the circumstances (and I cannot stress that enough), possibly yes. If the get is being contested (in the sense one spouse doesn’t want it) and the other spouse does not have a halachicly justifiable reason for divorce, the Rav is obligated to say no. A spouse is NOT automatically entitled to divorce-on-demand.
SJS, since I am fond of replying on Kasha’s behalf, I will do so again.
Prevent divorce by avoiding marriage
Prevent financial failure by never venturing into business or finances
Prevent car accidents by not using a car
Prevent loss of property by never acquiring property
Prevent death by abolishing procreation
Nevertheless as far as point 2 is concerned, even though such a GET is technically valid in the eyes of halacha, it may have been halachicly wrong to have been done, and there even may be penalties involved for having done so. (i.e. if a husband violates Chrem Rabbeinu Gershom prohibiting him from divorcing his wife against her will. Even though the divorce he gave her was halachicly effective.)
A beis din is the one that completes the process of giving a get does not only make sure that the get itself is kosher but also that it is halachicaly acceptable to be done.
Btw, Cherem drabeinu Gershom was only valid for 1,000 and I think the 1,000 years are over already.
Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom is still in effect today.
Otherwise you’d be hearing about frum men and their many wives.
Minhug and daas Yehadus. I this status will not change even if the cherem is not valid anymore.
Whatever the reasons, the Cherem is applicable.
Nuch a mazal.
At least in your opinion. 🙂
The Vilna Gaon felt it was time to discontinue the ban on polygamy.
Otherwise you’d be hearing about lots of frum men and their many wives.
I believe per R’ Gershom the cherem would no longer be in effect but it has become accepted nonetheless and besides it illegal to have more then one wife.
“besides it illegal to have more then one wife.”
Try explaining that to the Mormon Fundamentalists in Utah. The authorities don’t pursue this issue (unless additional crimes are committed). Additionally, its only illegal if you civilly register more than one marriage. A religious marriage without a civil marriage doesn’t violate the civil polygamy laws (and in most states the religious marriage wouldn’t even be recognized as legally married without a civil marriage license.)
Well it depends. Chassidishe men generally go to work after 2-3 years in kollel, so it would be a very expensive propostion for them to have more than one wife, so I’m sure most would share my opinion. But I think the Yeshivishe men might takeh have a different opinion.
It was always expensive to have more than one wife. Even in the time of the Gemorah.
Though if expense was a concern to prevent such marriages, that reasoning could logically be extended to prevent marriage even to one wife.
The Vilna Gaon felt it was time to discontinue the ban on polygamy
So why didn’t he discontinue the ban?
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