Broken Engagements

I see too many excuses being listed as why divorce is acceptable. No, not even half of those cases being discussed here should divorce be even a speck of thought in ones imagination. And additionally halacha has clear guidelines when divorce is and is not appropriate.

This talk about “love” is pure American shtus, in the understanding it is being discussed. It has no basis in a Jewish marriage.

This talk about “love” is pure American shtus, in the understanding it is being discussed. It has no basis in a Jewish marriage.

Love has no basis in a marriage?! Did I understand you correctly?

The Wolf

Clearheaded,

So what you are saying is that a person should live in a hate-filled marriage because of the path Hashem has given them? Can’t you apply that to abuse as well?

I can’t imagine bringing children into this world into a hate-filled marriage.

****This talk about “love” is pure American shtus, in the understanding it is being discussed. It has no basis in a Jewish marriage.

Love has no basis in a marriage?! Did I understand you correctly?

The Wolf****

You obviously did NOT understand clearheaded correctly. She stated: “in the understanding it is being discussed” here.

Clearly implying that there is a different sense in which love HAS a “basis in Jewish marriage.”

And that’s why I answered 😉

Actually, love is a very important element of marriage. However, the fact is that there are unfortunately people who do not know how do give love.

This has nothing to do with how long a person dates. I’ve seen this happening with Yeshivishe couples as well,where after they’re married one of them realizes that their spouse is simply incapable of giving them the amount or type of love they need and they didn’t realize that spouse would be like that until they got married. Or they both fell an emptiness in the marriage. Even with the longest engagement there are things things that are noticed AFTER marriage.

Now if the spouse that cannot give love, however that’s defined – I say it’s defined for each person differently-but let’s say for example, it’s emotional closeness and a spouse cannot give that, that’s no reason to run out and get a get.

Why not if that’s an ESSENTIAL part of a HEALTHY marriage? Because if that unloving spouse is basically a good, responsible person but doesn’t give what they’re expected to does not mean that that is grounds for divorce.

Do you know how many people did love each other when they got married and the love cooled down? So after 20 years of marriage they should divorce? And even after one year of marriage, that’s not a reason to divorce either. One should try to do hishtadlus and work on bonding to create love, it usually works but not always.

Unfortunately, this generation does not realize how serious a marriage is. As the Yiddish saying goes “vos es goyisht zich Yiddished zich” what is a goyishe concept becomes accepted as the norm by us Jews after awhile. Now there are long lasting marriages in the goyishe world but it’s becoming rarer and rarer to find young married couples that don’t divorce after a few years. The foundation of a strong society rests on strong family ideals of lasting marriages not short and loving marriages. America is becoming a weak, immoral society.

Jewish communities too, are strong if real and LASTING values are upheld, not emotional weakness, not broken families. Again with emotional or physical abuse, yes there definitely should be divorce, (and in other rare cases) otherwise the marriage should stay lasting!

clearheaded- what do you mean by the fact that a spouse cant “give love” and otherwise is a seemingly responsible good person? do you have experience in that? i can definatly tell you that when 1 spouse cannot give love-meaning an emotional connection to the other spouse there are will be many more issues included as well. If a spose feels no love from the other there, and there is no emotional connection there will be a ripple affect into other thing as well ie, the physical connection, and communication.

you can’t imagine how difficult it can be for 1 spouse to feel no emotional connection and love from the other.

Don’t forget, despite what corrupt western values may have unfortunately instilled in some of us, divorce is NOT a right. Just cause one party insists on it, does not indicate s/he is entitled to it. There are certain, specified, reasons why one of the spouses (and it differs for each one) can insist on one. But just cause one wants it, does not mean s/he is entitled to it. The idea s/he is entitled to divorce-on-demand comes from western shtus.

Ironically, there is little love in the CR, yet few of us can divorce ourselves from it.

Why did you continue dating, if you knew after 3 weeks? You should of gotten engaged then and limited contact until the wedding.

So right… I’m curious. Are you married?

The Wolf

B’H yes, why do you ask?

OK, then you might understand.

A young guy meets a young girl and it’s love at first sight. Within three weeks they know they want to marry each other but, at that point, they simply aren’t ready for marriage.

Do you *really* think that at that point, we could have just walked away from each other for three years and then just picked things up right after the wedding? Do you think the relationship would have been the same?

IOW, relationships just don’t work that way. As a married guy, you can understand that.

The Wolf

NB: I’m not necessarily defending the relationship – I’m just answering his question of “why didn’t you…”

Oh and I forgot, what about when a man ABSOLUTELY MUST have a good looking wife. A bacheinte wife (chas v’sholom we’re not going to say that a ben Torah needs a model – he simply needs a good looking wife.) Some men need a good looking woman when it comes to love.

Then the poor wife turns fifty and what happens? No love! Gevald! However , there probably won’t be a divorce because how young could anyone look at fifty years old when you NEED someone who looks like twenty?

I was once been by a shaitle macher and there was a woman there who looked beautiful however even beautiful women who don’t look their age, there’s something there that tells you that they’re older, mabe the way their eyes and cheekbones are set. Whatever it was, I figured that she was at least fifty years old.

That poor lady tried on a shaitel and asked the shaitel macher if the shaitel makes her look youngshe because her husband told her she looks old. She looked beautiful but no she didn’t look like a twenty year old.

If love has to do with how one looks, then you can be sure a fifty year old doesn’t look like a twenty year old.

Divorce?

So you’re going to say well, that’s not real love. Come on, face the fact if you would not find your wife or husband physicaly pleasing would you get married to them? I’m not saying that when you get married no one needs to think about whether their spouse’s looks pleases, however looks do change!

And therefore for a husband who REALLY, REALLY, needs a good looking wife, pushot because that is what he REALLY needs for his emotional health and the wife gets older, nu isn’t that hard for him?

Okay, we need to consider divorce because he can’t love his wife anymore, or rather he can’t love his wife anymore IN THE WAY SHE NEEDS TO BE LOVED. She doesn’t feel that he loves her anymore.

That’s sad but that’s no ground for divorce. And indeed there probably won’t be one as the husband and wife have already established themselves in the community with a family, they certainly won’t consider divorce, but the marriage can certainly not be called loving.

“Well, you said you became frum later, so it is different in your case”

To quote mosherose, there is no reason why it should be different. Just because one is not frum does not mean one is allowed to violate gezeiras chachamim.

Its also important to note that a women shouldn’t be dressing to public beauty, but rather reserving it for the privacy of her husband.

“”you can’t imagine how difficult it can be for 1 spouse to feel no emotional connection and love from the other”

I never said it’s easy, but a lot of people have it much, much worse. What should those paralyzed, but their minds are intact say? What should the childless say? Who said life is easy? We need to focus on doing what is right!

We live in a very spoiled generation. Es kimt zich mir! There’s no appreciation for life, for every breath we take, for all the good that we DO have! “

I don’t disagree,per se, but the fact that someone else has worse tzoros, whatever they are, does not mitigate the pain of someone in a loveless marriage. It is not being spoiled, to want to feel emotionally and physically connected and close with your spouse.

Being paralyzed or childless Ch”v”Sh, has its own set of challenges. BTW, being childless can be a tremendous stressor in an otherwise happy marriage. Halachically, a man can divorce his wife after ten years, if they are childless (hopefully no one does so in this day and age). And while we absolutely SHOULD appreciate every breath we take, that has nothing whatsoever to do with remaining in a marriage that gives no comfort or joy to someone. You call that spoiled to want more out of life????

“Vi shteit that one is either entitled to “comfort and joy” or a divorce???

“You call that spoiled to want more out of life????”

In 99.9+% of the time one will NOT get “more out of life” by divorcing for these reasons being given. Who knows if the next marriage will not be the same or even worse than the first. “

Sorry, but you and I are not on the same page here and never will be. Ivdu es Hashem b’simcha,means exactly that, and one part of avodas Hashem is the mitzvah of Pru Urvu. The mitzvah of being mesameach chosson v’kallah is called exactly that, because we ARE supposed to live joyfully and help others to feel joyful as well (“v’samachta b’chagecha v’hayisa ach sameach” are not just lip service expressions).If Hashem commands us to experience joy from our shloshes regalim which come about only three times a year, kal v’chomer that He wants us to be joyful in marriage which is 24/7. Any Jew who believes itherwise, does not know the meaning of the joy of Torah, and will have a tough question to answer when after 120 years Hashem asks why he did not avail himself of the joy in this beautiful world that He created.

The only thing that I agree with, is that divorce does not always bring a person the happiness he or she thinks it will, because there is not always something better out there. But sometimes there is.

However the development of love between spouses as a process of work, he has said many times, is a very important concept, though not the most important thing, which is developing a partnership to serve Hashem, ideally bolstered by a strong, true, and enduring love between the spouses.

Mod-80, that is the ideal marriage.

However, factually there all kinds of people out there that don’t live according to the ideal way.

Some men? ALL men.and I mean GOOD. Period

A large part of Chassidishe men weren’t educated by their mothers and still believe in “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”.

Depending on where one lives, there are a lot of dowdy Chassidishe women with happy husbands (not saying in all cases, but in general it’s like that).

You’re not married more than a year or two, are you?

smartcookie, how did you guess? I’m married for one year and two months. Oh, and I forgot, plus an additional 10 years as well, b”H.

You call that spoiled to want more out of life????

Wanting more out of life then Hashem gave you? Yes.

If Hashem commands us to experience joy from our shloshes regalim which come about only three times a year, kal v’chomer that He wants us to be joyful in marriage which is 24/7. Any Jew who believes itherwise, does not know the meaning of the joy of Torah, and will have a tough question to answer when after 120 years Hashem asks why he did not avail himself of the joy in this beautiful world that He created.

Nobody is saying that we shouldn’t try to make our marriages more joyful or loving, for that matter. But reality is that there are some who don’t know how to love a spouse in the way they should.

I take it that you are implying that divorce is actually a good thing because it makes a person free to be able to have a chance at a loving marriage and consequently serve Hashem with joy.

That’s a new twist. Hey, divorce is actually a good thing!

Oomis, I definitely don’t agree with you on this. Can one say that there’s riches in this world and since money gives me happiness (honestly it does, one of the most pleasurable things for me is going shopping for clothing and accessories- not grocery shopping!) and I must aquire it even if it means to ask for charity, otherwise Hashem will ask me why I’ve not partaken from the joyous things in life? Puleeez!

mischiefmaker – no one disagrees with that. The point we’re trying to make is that divorce should be a dirty word within a Jewish marriage. It should be strongly discouraged and only resorted to as an absolute last last resort, when there are absolutely no alternatives.

Shimmel,

When you say “abusive” do you mean “physically” as in repeated, regular beatings?

The Wolf

Emotionally abusive. and yes i think has been physically abusive once or twice in the past!

I dont understand your question.

I know because its someone i know well.. and i wrote i think since i dont live in the house to know for sure,but i heard..

Within halacha only under specific and limited conditions is a woman entitled to receive a get. See Shulchan Aruch, Evan HaEzer, Chapter 154.

There are limitations on him as well, though the circumstances he is permitted to give a get are different than the ones where she is entitled to one.

See Shulchan Aruch, Evan HaEzer, Chapter 154.

I’m not convinced that under present-day society, the Mechaber’s list is exhaustive. For example, the Mechaber says nothing about the wife being beaten repeatedly.*

Or is it your contention that a woman has no right to receive a get if her husband is truly beating her daily?

The Wolf

* It may be that such things didn’t happen in the Mechaber’s day or it may be that it was socially acceptable (and therefore not worth remarking about).

Wolf, We don’t rewrite our own S”A.

No, but you can (and must) adapt it to modern-day realities.

Nonetheless, you failed to answer my question. I didn’t ask about standards of proof — I was asking if she was beaten.

IOW, if you do have sufficient proof (however you want to set the standard) that she is being beaten, does she have the right to demand a get? It’s not on the Mechaber’s list of conditions.

The Wolf