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What’s wrong with love before getting married if one is not blinded only by the chitzonius, but is on the same page on important issues as well?
There’s nothing wrong with that.
I’m asking out of curiosity of those who dated a longer time and also met often during the engagement period if you became conscious of negative character trait(s) (that every human possesses)of your future spouse and if you did, how did you deal with that issue?
I’m asking out of curiosity of those who dated a longer time and also met often during the engagement period if you became conscious of negative character trait(s) (that every human possesses)of your future spouse and if you did, how did you deal with that issue?
Eeees and I dated for over three years before we got married. From about three weeks after we met, we both knew it wasn’t a matter of if we were going to get married, just when.
I think that perhaps, in our case, we were helped by the fact that we both understood that we weren’t marrying perfect people. So, if she or I did something that was out of the ordinary, we would just let it pass. Yes, we both have our faults, but, over the years, we learned to love each other in spite of those faults, to the point where today, many years later, we don’t even notice them anymore.
The Wolf
Why did you continue dating, if you knew after 3 weeks? You should of gotten engaged then and limited contact until the wedding. I needn’t expound on the dangers of an engaged but unmarried couple remaining in close frequent contact.
Wolf, hashkafa was also somewhat important but my husband was more right wing than I was, but we fell in love and wanted to make it work. So we did.
That’s fine. It’s up to each person to decide which hashkafah differences they can live with and which are deal-breakers. Obviously, in your case, you decided you can live with them.
The Wolf
What is the point of dating for 3 yrs? Especially if ur minds were made up after 3 wks! I understand you might date a few months, but years?
Because we were very young at the time. That’s the only reason.
As it is, we got married younger than most other people.
The Wolf
How old were the two of you at your wedding?
Getting married young is the best and healthiest thing to do (in general). This is borne out by the fact that the younger marriages tend to be more successful. They don’t come into marriage with a bunch of baggage and unrealistic expectations and having been influenced by corrupting secular and goyishe ideas.
Would you believe 8 and 5?
No, I didn’t think so. We were 21 and 19.
As it is, I don’t want to turn this into the “Wolf’s long dating thread.” I simply answered because clearheaded asked about couples who dated a long time and personal perceptions and I felt that I had some insight into that area.
The Wolf
You were “dating” her for marriage purposes when she was 16!?! Es shtimt nisht.
You were “dating” her for marriage purposes
I didn’t say that. Not all of us were as frum as you when we were younger.
Nonetheless, yes, we both knew, at 18 and 16 that we wanted to marry each other.
The Wolf
Nowadays they’d probably throw you in the slammer for underage… 😉
Nowadays they’d probably throw you in the slammer for underage… 😉
Not if we didn’t do anything illegal.
The Wolf
Its legal for an adult to date a minor? A 55 year old guy can date a 15 year old girl??
Its legal for an adult to date a minor? A 55 year old guy can date a 15 year old girl??
Two points to make.
1. The only illegality is actual conduct. If there is no actual conduct, then there is nothing illegal. (Note: That doesn’t make it moral or proper, of course, but the cops can’t lock you away for taking a girl out for coffee.)
2. In many areas, it’s legal for an adult and a minor to be involved if they are close enough in age. Most jurisdictions have a “two year rule” (meaning that if they are within two years, they won’t take action). Otherwise, it would be illegal for an 18 year old to date a 17.5 year old.
The Wolf
EDITED
A 55 year old guy can date a 15 year old girl??
And, come on, seriously…. you’re comparing an 18/16 relationship to a 55/15????
The Wolf
“the cops can’t lock you away for taking a girl out for coffee.”
The cops sometimes trap predators by pretending to be a minor, and see if any adult predator tries to take them out. They then charge the guy without any other conduct.
They then charge the guy without any other conduct.
Only if it’s apparent that it’s going further.
The Wolf
my parents got married at 17/23, legally. so i imagine it was probably legal, what wolf did. there are many minor kallahs, especially in the aforementioned ‘ultra-frum’ group…
I’m asking out of curiosity of those who dated a longer time and also met often during the engagement period if you became conscious of negative character trait(s) (that every human possesses)of your future spouse and if you did, how did you deal with that issue?
I have a similar situation to the Wolf. My husband and I dated for a rather long time, in part because we started dating for silly reasons when we were in high school. But once we were old enough (at the age of 18) to realize that we wanted to be married and have a life together, it wasn’t exactly possible to get married right away. We both went to college, and were finishing up our first year , so we had absolutely no means of supporting ourselves. With that, we got very little support from our parents because they thought we were so young. We did get engaged about a year later, once everyone was on board and our finances were figured out. Throughout the engagement period we met often and to be honest, we both felt that we were only growing closer in the excitement for our futures. I think that negative attributes come out once a couple is married and living together. It is only then that you really see all sides of a person.
B”H everything has been wonderful, I think that a major reason for this is because when a problem or an argument arises we make sure to take a step back, let the argument happen, but make it a constructive argument where in the end we both feel as if we know more about each other. I think it goes back to the expectations. I won’t say that I didn’t have some expectations of what life would be like once I was married, of course I did. But I knew that it wasn’t going to be a fairy tale. I think that knowing this helps us both make the best of everything and allows for better communication. IMO it is effective communication that makes a great marriage.
One major problem with a couple being in too frequent contact during a long (official or unofficial) engagement is that an engaged couple naturally feels very close to each other, and being they are unmarried and are severally limited in the interactions that are permissible with each other (let us not spell this out), it forces them to act unnaturally as a soon to be married couple, whilst yet still legally unmarried. Unfortunately all too often nature kicks in and their unnatural, but halachicly mandated, detachment becomes weaker and weaker in maintaining. To deny this is to deny nature.
So right, I wasn’t asking for your approval of the situation. I was just giving another answer to the question posed. The question had nothing to do with the temptations of meeting and during the engagement. I am not denying what you are saying, but not everyone agrees with how the situation is remedied.
arosem, I was commenting generally, not on your situation anymore than anyone else’s. I know of no other effective “remedy.” If they are in contact, nature will be nature.
SELF CONTROL
Wow, maybe we can do away with all the tznius and yichud regulations too based on that thunderstorm of an idea. Especially the hiddurim in tznius. Simply urge “self control” and viola! nature will be put aside. Why couldn’t our sages of all the ages think of this…
Thats not really what I am saying. But I am sure you are aware that not everyone agrees that there should be minimal speaking during the engagement period. Its not that they are just throwing things to the wind. They are conscious of what could go wrong and make every effort to ensure it doesn’t, short of stopping all communications.
mosherose, i wasn’t implying c”v that Yaakov didn’t love Rachel for spriritual reasons. You claimed that love can only come after marriage, never before. As proof of that you cited the fact that Yitzchok loved Rivka after they married, not before. I was simply pointing out that love can come before marriage too.
My husband and I met 3 years before we got married. It was our freshman year of college and there was no way we could get married then. We were friends for nine months before we started dating, dated for 1.5 years and then engaged for 9 months. We had originally planned to wait until after graduation, but my mother encouraged us to get married a year before we graduated. I was already living on my own (too far to commute from home) and my husband coming to live with me added negligble costs. I’m glad we waited to get married, but I’m also glad we didn’t wait until we gradutated.
My husband and I noticed each others negative traits and were able to discuss our issues before we got engaged. I think that really helped keep us close but realistic. We learnt that communication is primary and how to effectively communicate (and that we COULD). Since we were both in school together, we spent lots and lots of hour together every day (both in class and out of class). We really knew each other inside and out by the time we got married.
Self control is possible if you would like to. We followed our rabbinic guidelines.
SJSinNYC, arosem, WolfishMusings,
Can you honestly say that during your long dating and engagement, while you were in constant touch with each other that no halachcily inappropriate contact had occurred?
So right, my husband and I hung out in school buildings 99% of the time. People were always milling about.
And yes, we followed halacha.
So I take it no physical contact occurred during the dating and engagement periods?
What part of “we followed halacha” wasn’t clear?
A simple yes or no would suffice. I am simply asking.
I hesitate to say no, because I’m sure at some point we bumped into each other accidentally. Otherwise, no, no forbidden contact.
So I understand your honest statement to mean you had no intentional contact?
Yes.
Why?
I’m not saying everyone who has long dating/engagements abstain from forbidden contact, I’m saying we did.
Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps the others can share their experience on this as well.
So right, I think that just the fact of you asking is a little offensive, lets leave the job of judging to Hashem.
arosem, I’m not judging, I’m making a point. Your reluctance to address the question directly speaks for itself.
Date for as long as needed.
Then…
Get married within 6-8 weeks of engagement.
Dream marriages are more important than a dream wedding costing 150K.
so right, I so agree with you, that we must be from the same circles. Many couples are ashamed to admit. Bumping into you chosson even unintentionally is not allowed, that is just the point. We dont hang around “forbidden men” so as not to come in contact intentionally or unintentionally.
“As proof of that you cited the fact that Yitzchok loved Rivka after they married, not before.”
That does not mean that love does not come before marriage, only that the love that comes FROM the marriage is richer and has more substance. Plenty of people fall in love and then get married. The commitment of marriage deepens those feelings, but it doesn’t mean they are not there on a high level for many of us, prior to the wedding.
Poster, I was always taught that its only negiah bderech chiba that’s forbidden, so bumping into someone isn’t really a problem. Same reasons I was told I could shake mens hands at work.
If you want to avoid any possible bumping into each other, then you need to do chassidish beshow style dating/engagement. Most yeshivish people I know still see their fiances before the wedding.
“Bumping” into someone most certainly IS a problem. Perhaps you can argue it is a b’shogeg, but you should definitly be taking steps to avoid even such a, ahem, “b’shogeg.”
So right- you are NOT SO RIGHT at all with all your questionning.
While I also think its not right to hang around with a boy for years, I don’t judge anyone who does.
To put it simply, it really isn’t your business.
And if any of them chose not to follow Halacha, do you really think they will listen to your little mussar here, let alone admit their wrongs?
I think I would be very offended if I were them…
SJSinNYC, I did see my chosson while we were engaged. We would never go bowling or to arcades. We met in a hotel type of thing and he came over to my house to visit and we sat in the dining room over drinks. We spoke to keep the connection, but such meetings would never come to touching, even by mistake.
According to your Rav sure. Mine said it was no issue.
so right: Why so cynical? Have you ever been on a train, store, etc where someone accidentally bumped into you? Would you also put b’shogeg in quotes then? If someone is out with their chosson, and as SJSinNYC mentioned is common in yeshivish circles, isn’t the chance of bumping unintentioally quite possible as well?
Thank you for those who answered my question regarding long term dating and frequent meeting during the engagement period.
Okay, I think we can apply the long term dating process in Yeshivishe circles, as apposed to the Chassidishe meetings (beshows) in the same vein as those from non-Yeshivishe couples, (SJS, I know you call yourself MO, but Wolf and arosem, I’m not sure which group you identify with within the frum world)albeit with much shorter dating and engagement periods.
I’m only focusing here on the aspect of if you became conscious of negative character trait(s) (that every human possesses)of your future spouse and if you did, how did you deal with that issue?
I think those who answered basically agreed that they knew each others faults, but worked on communication and to love each other despite knowing their faults.
I think that dating often before engagement as opposed to meeting 3-4 times, (and in a lot of cases less than that) in the Chassidishe circles can have maalos, however the metzius is that there is a major of drawback as well.
The fact is that there are many, many more older singles, broken engagements and divorces in the non-Chassidishe circles because
1. not everyone gets that spark of love that conveys to those in the parsha that this person is the one I can me married to my entire life
2. and the expectations of a happy and fulfilling marriage is higher and therefore harder to achieve
I think that those who expect more from marriage should not get engaged before they are completly mature and know what they are looking for. One should explore and get to know themselves completely and also know what they REALLY want in a spouse(I’m talking about tachlishdige issues, not the shape of one’s face, or whether the girl is a size two or an eight and also not what people are pressuring them to look for).
I also think it’s important to have a mentor to guide a person through the dating and engagement period and sometimes even after marriage.
When issues come up during the engagement, the engaged couple MUST learn communication skills. Breaking up an engagement should not be an option in most cases. This is simply a training ground for marriage.
Also divorce should only be an option for those who have an abusive spouse, finds out about a major issue that was withheld after the marriage that can have a huge impact , or any other MAJOR issue that cannot be corrected such as a husband that doesn’t learn, doesn’t work, doesn’t do his duties, is a shlepper and cannot change.
However not being able to love each other, or that the marriage feels emtpy is NOT, and I repeat NOT an excuse to divorce.
Sorry to sound callous, but life is not a bowl of cherries. Hashem is the one that creates the type of marraige He decides is best for an individual and if hishtadlus doesn’t help (in most cases it does) then is is Hashem’s decree.
Marriage is not something one can just dump for any reason. A bayis neeman b’Yisroel is a very serious thing (with children or not), it is not an object that could be dumped if one feels they have outworn it.
Hashem places each individual in a certain situation for them to grow and change and discover themselves in a way that only pain can lead them to.
I vintch everyone should have sholom v’shalvah, not only between you and your spouse (or future spouse) but also within you.
Amen!
Case Closed!!
Clearheaded, when you don’t love someone, it slowly erodes your desire to do anything for that person and will often turn to hatred.
Lets take a typical example: man puts dirty socks on the floor instead of the hamper (my husband uses the hamper LOL). When you love the person, its a minor annoyance. When you don’t love the person, it becomes a bone of contention.
Sure its a silly example, but tack 1,000 of these type of small things and a loveless marriage turns into a hate-filled marriage. Unfortunately, I know a few of those.
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