- This topic has 339 replies, 44 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
In the past few years im been noticing throwing out alot of invitation without even going to the wedding.. not bec im not in the mood to go or bec it was too far, but rather bec they werent getting marrried to each other>>> in other words THEY BROKE UP!!
What is going on now more then ever..
My thought is that kids are being set up and pushed too much. The parents tell the boy, “we are looking” and then they FINALLY find someone and they feel like “if this is not the one ill prob wait another 3 years for my parents to deceide on the next one”.
And on the girls side, she’s waiting for 2 years for a date FINALLY, she just says like “ok hes not THAT BAD”..
Thats besides the marrying for $$$ issue. (parents say well they’ll support u in learning for the rest of your life)
Anybody agree or disagree, or have any points to share?
IMO (humble as it is), the reson for the numerous breakups is very simple. The couple barely know each other, have not spent any meaningful time with each other before the l’chaim, plan to get married too quickly after the vort, and have never learned how to argue constructively. They are apparently pressured into getting engaged by parents and shadchanim who both have agendas, and are fearful of not having another chance. By the time some of them are breaking up, it is the approximate amount of time for many dating couples who have been seeing each other for a few months, to come to realize that maybe they should not get engaged at all. When a couple starts to feel comfortable with each other, they let their hair down so to speak, and thigs come out in conversation or behavior that might not otherwise have been revealed. This process takes more than a couple of weeks. Couple who become engaged after 4 or 5 weeks are still on their best behavior, and do not act naturally with each other at this point. Right or wrong, this is my opinion, although I realize I give a simplistic reason for an ultimately complex issue.
People often reveal secrets after they are engaged. Sometimes its enough to break up an engagement.
SJS is right about that, and better then than after the wedding.
When the couple lands and sees that restaurants, miniature golf games, lounges, Lexuses borrowed for dating, etc. are all an illusion and they learn that money doesn’t grow on trees, they throw in the towel and call it off.
Better now than when there are more mouths to feed.
Who are we to judge?
True artchill but still sad. Besides, breaking engagements can come from cold feet about something normal, or something they agreed to and got scared of. For example, I know someone who had a minor mental disability and got engaged to a boy from a troubled home. A few days before the wedding the boy called it off because they suddenly realized what they’re getting themselves into even though they knew about it the whole time. It was very hurtful to the girl’s family and a big disappointment to everyone.
Just from my dating experiences… you can feel very lost or confused when in it… So many times feeling not sure. Nice guy and nice girl but how do I know is for me? Thats what ppl feel. And shadchanim push… try again if no reason not to go out. sometimes they are right… and unfortunately sometimes not. Ive been pushed… almost too far but BH was able to suddenly see clearer before it was too late. Others are not so fortunate. BH when I found my spouse it was just right- even with a few ups and downs along the way but I learned never to judge bc it is just hard to know what you need and know who the other psn is!
ppl are very pushy when you are on dates. if their is nothing horribly wrong, ppl keep telling you to give another try and another try. also, girls are always getting the attitude of the shidduch crisis and if you dont take him you’ll never get married which is a whole problem in itself.
I agree with oomis. not everyone can decide after knowing someone for 4 weeks that they are ready to marry them. if you think about it, that means you have spent about 30 hours in their presence. that is not enough time to really determine if you can get along in every aspect and are right for each other.
Each case is very individual and although we like to think we know everything, we really don’t know what’s REALLY going on. although it’s a sad phenomena but lets try not to just jump to conclusions.
i know this sounds quite like nonsense, but in my circles, where it’s common for someone to get engaged after only three or four meetings, until very recently (more recently than in other circles), there was a much lower percentage of divorces/broken engagements. i think that the increase is actually due to increasingly immature people and the influence leaking into our insular commmunities.
May I be so bold as to suggest that’s it’s because young people feel they need to get “the perfect” shidduch and that doesn’t materialize because as humans everyone has their faults. And when you spend more time together the negative characteristics come up. What is a girl or boy supposed to look away from when they see their chosson/kallah has some anger management issues or not enough sensitivity or is conceited or any other of the myriad negative but human characteristics?
What could a person look away from?
Well, the easiest thing to do is call the whole engagement off.
It’s great to see all those who feel they know the answers to everything.Thanks you know klal yisroel needs more of you-FOR cryin out loud!How can you decide what the issue is?
All we know is that it’s a real “nebach” every time,and someones heart is broken.
Just Daven!
I agree with, Emoticon613;
I think a lot of it is also because of secular liberal influences.
For example Feminism is infiltrating the Jewish communitry and often unless the man is going to push the women into becomming a doctor or lawyer or business executive or some other “high powered” career some of them think these days that he will “think of her only as an object” whereas they USED to think of raising the kids to do Torah and mitzvohs and work on being tzaddikim and bringing Moshiach, rather then their own personal ‘honor’ that they get from their careers.
You can see the Feminism thread for a more full discussion on this aspect since discussing it in detail here, would probably get it deleted.
I definitely agree with oomis. Today, its become the norm to go out for six or seven dates and then get engaged. Someone I know did the quickie-dating thing (divorced after less than a year, not her fault) and she said had she spent more time dating him, she definitely would have been able to see through his act. I do understand that Hashem had the best in mind for her, and that in certain cases dating for longer periods of time wont help the situation at all. But for the times that it will, is it worth not taking extra precautions, especially when they are rather simple in the general scheme of things?
Like someone else said above, communities with shorter dating cycles (i.e. 3 or 4 dates before engagement) tend to have lower divorce rates. Communities where they date for 6 months and even longer, tend to have higher divorce rates than even the communities that are mid-range (i.e. 9-10 dates before engagement.)
So if there is an argument to be made, it is surely that shorter dating tends to work out better.
Kasha, I think the benefit to short-term dating, is that there is very, very extensive research before the couple meets. (I once heard something like 6-8 weeks, but that would be dependent on the specific community) and the families meet before the couple does (and often they know each other from before). In addition to that, the meeting is monitored and kept to a specific amount of time and the mindset for the duration of the meeting is marriage. I’m not sure that everyone goes on a date with the specific purpose of marriage (although there is an overall mindset) but somehow when theres a date for five, six, or seven hours, the marriage part somehow takes a back seat.
kapusta, YOU ARE RIGHT. Before I met my husband my parents did EXTENSIVE research, besides for the fact that our families knew eachother slightly. After that, my mother in law met me and my father met my husband. Then we met to see that we had common grounds. Our first meetings were not longer than 2 hours, so that we were each thirsty for more. Our later meetings were as long as we needed to discuss Hashkafa and our goals for the future. we met 4 times in total. (I was not forced into anything, this was not the first boy I met, but I only met 3 other boys, and the other boys worked the same way, extensive research, parents meeting first and then boy and girl. When either one of us felt this wasn’t it, we didnt continue.) Once we got engaged we spoke minimally during the engagement and did not meet often. How did I feel before my wedding? regular Nervous of course, but excited to get to know my chosson better!
I have never experienced “the other” way, but this seems to work and in my circles, there are rarely broken engagements.
While a lot of you seem to agree that the less chosson and kallah meet before and during the engagement the more likely it it for the engagement to last, the question is why?
And that’s because even the nicest people have negative characteristics, as that is one aspect of being human. And these negative character traits surface and are visible when chosson and kallah meet often.
So should a chosson and kallah meet less or just go for this new kind of pre-marital therapy?
Engagements are very stressful and this can be a reason why people break them. Once you make the decision you chap what a major decision it is and many get cold feet. Engagements are ALWAYs stressful whether its done in a more chassidish way, with very few meetings (sometimes even one) and barely/no interaction during engagement, or when they speak very often and date for long periods of time. I have friends who did both. Both were very stressed out during the engagement and both were happy with the way they did it. (the ones who dated longer didn’t date anywhere near a few weeks, just wasn’t only 2/4 dates that were limited.)
Since we all know that everyone has some flaws because there is no such a thing as a perfect human;
Won’t any kind of “pre marital therapy” be counter productive?
It will just bring out the flaws and endlesly analyse them without accomplishing anything just like the president is endlessly analysing the Gulf oil spill without accomplishing anything.
The reason people despite their flaws stay married is because they make it a point to accomplish being together despite the flaws, not to go over them and highlight them and sit and worry about the fact that “my intended spouse has flaws”.
When both people go into marriage with the idea that it is supposed to be forever (at least 999 out of 1000 times) the marriage usually works even if it is not perfect (because nothing ever is).
But when they go into it thinking “well there is always divorce”
There is a much greater chance, there will be one.
If people go into dating with the idea that “even though people all have flaws, I will marry, only once they are all worked out” I think that person will either go into marriage so deluded that it will undrmine the marriage (thinking the flaws are all fixed) or they will possiboly never find ‘the right one’.
This is one reason (not necessarly the only reason but one important reason) why I think there is the ‘shidduch crises’ that has been mentioned in at least one other thread.
If everyone has flaws and must be perfect to marry, or have their flaws fixed by the “flaw repair shop”, before getting married, then who can ever get married?
The so-called extensive research that parents are doing really has no bearing on what type of couple the children will be together. Knowing that a bochur is a good learner, says nothing whatsoever about what kind of husband he will be (other than probably continue to be a good learner). Knowing what seminary she went to says nothing about her chessed, compassion, cooking skills, love of children, affectionate nature, etc. The research usually involves the asking of questions about naarishkeit (type of tablecloth, plastic vs. china, tied shoes or loafers, etc.).
Until two people spend both qualituy and quantity time together, you can ask all the questions you want and everything can look perfect on paper, but the shidduch is still NOT GOOD. A couple needs to spend time having meaningful conversation about their hopes and dreams, the path they want to follow in the future,the kind of family they want to raise. It is less crucial for them to spend that same time discussing the very superficial things that these couples often discuss, because they have (naturally) not as yet reached a sufficient comfort level with each other to make deep conversation.
People who rarely see each other during the engagement period (in order to avoid stress and sniping at each other), are probably also people who have not yet learned how to constructively disagree with someone and still realize they love that person. If they cannot disagree “safely” before marriage, what makes you think it will be better AFTER marriage?
IMO (and I acknowledge I could be wrong), people who date for short cycles (3 or 4 dates) and get engaged, have an intrinsically lowered expectation regarding dating and marriage. And if that works for them, who am I to say it’s bad for them? But when one has lowered expectations and then gets disappointed (because even with lower expectations, there has to be a minimum of something good going on in the marriage), that disappointment is demoralizing and disillusioning, and that’s why there is a rising divorce rate amongst certain groups that normally had a much lower incidence of it.
Engaged couple need to stop speaking to each others too often and definitely should stop meeting.
It doesn’t bring any good.
Of course a good shbbs, and an ocassional phonecall should be, but this whole idea of chosson, kallah spending so much time with each others, just ruins it for so many.
I know it seems unrealistic, we all couldn’t wait for the next phonecall/meeting but it must be changed.
hereorthere: “It will just bring out the flaws and endlesly analyse them without accomplishing anything”
So, do you oppose mussar and cheshbon hanefesh
My wife and I got engaged on the second in person date after having met on an internet dating service. (Can I say which one?) We have been happily married for five years.
I agree with SJS that it is better to break it off before the wedding than after.
hereorthere,
What is wrong with a woman becoming a doctor? I can think of few other careers in which one is constanly performing mitzvah after mitzvah after mitzvah after mitzvah. My wife finished her medical residency shortly before we met.
Quoting Oomis “The so-called extensive research that parents are doing really has no bearing on what type of couple the children will be together. Knowing that a bochur is a good learner, says nothing whatsoever about what kind of husband he will be (other than probably continue to be a good learner). Knowing what seminary she went to says nothing about her chessed, compassion, cooking skills, love of children, affectionate nature, etc. The research usually involves the asking of questions about naarishkeit (type of tablecloth, plastic vs. china, tied shoes or loafers, etc.). “
It is obvious that you have never done EXTENIVE research. We are asking things you are trying to figure out ON a date, we are trying to confirm BEFORE the date. Including middos, personality, chessed, compassion, love of children, affectionate nature etc. Everyone knows that a boy and girl on a date are on their best behavior. Dont you think that speaking to a boy or girls roommate, co-counslor, neighbor, etc pple that have seen him through thick and thin would bring you the most accurate info? Dont forget that boys and girls are on their best behaviors on a date. Then of course the boy and girl can meet to “spend time having meaningful conversation about their hopes and dreams, the path they want to follow in the future,the kind of family they want to raise. “
You are right “everything can look perfect on paper, but the shidduch is still NOT GOOD.” that is why we meet and are not commited beforehand. Like I said, even after research we still dont have to marry the first boy we meet.
“hereorthere: “It will just bring out the flaws and endlesly analyse them without accomplishing anything”
hello99 says;
“So, do you oppose mussar and cheshbon hanefesh “
There is a time and a place for evrything which by definition means, for each thing, there are times and places where it is wrong to do.
Charliehall says;
“hereorthere,
What is wrong with a woman becoming a doctor? I can think of few other careers in which one is constanly performing mitzvah after mitzvah after mitzvah after mitzvah. My wife finished her medical residency shortly before we met.”
Did you on another thread complain about being a poker player?
And how much Chazal would disapprove?
I never said there was anything wrong with her being a doctor.
I said that anyone who thinks that if her husband does not PUSH her to do it, that he must be some kind of “woman hater” is someone I think is going off the derech and you would be hard peressed to find any Gadol who would say otherwise.
By the way since you bring it up not everything where someoe can accomplish something is necessarily something that just anyone should do.
For example I think being an astronaut, is a very nobel profession expanidng the frontiers of knowledge about the universe and promoting knowledge of the wonders beyond our own planet, but that does not mean a JEW should be the one doing it because of problems keeping Shabbos and similar issues.
Who says a woman is accomplishing so much by being a doctor and not raising her own kids who then G-d forbid, fry out, or pretend to ‘stay frum’ when in fact they really are far from it and living a lie?
And I personally know someone in a situation where they have no clue as to the fact that their kids are goiong way off the derech because they are not there for them, when they should be.
The reasoning behind the concept of minimal meeting before and minimal (if any) contact after the engagement is because an engaged couple is essentially an unnatural relationship. You have a male and female that have been brought up to keep their distance, and then meet after extensive parental research which has nothing to do with plastic tablecloths, plate stacking or silver/plastic ware. They converse to see whether they enjoy each other’s company, and possibly to see whether they have the same expectations (although this has probably been determined during the research) and hopefully this concludes with a mazal tov. At that point, there is nothing further to be gained by meeting with the constraints that the couple is not yet man and wife, and therefore still have to abide by the standards of modesty in conversation between an unrelated male and female. Such conversation serves no ‘tachlis’, after all they are already engaged, and is only fraught with danger. It is no wonder, then, that there is a much lower rate of broken engagements amongst those who meet less. This is definitely an instance where less is more!
There is a big difference between knowing if the potential Chasson is compassionate and helps other people or if the potential Kallah is careful with Tznius, and trying to “remedy”
someone gettimg annoyed because they ‘clink’ their coffee cup too loudly or too often with their soon.
Researching the potential mate, finds out the necessary things before the first date, (and the dating itself helps find that out as long as it is short and intensive) and “therapy” usually just harps on making the less important things, into mountains that are then too big to climb.
“Did you on another thread complain about being a poker player?
And how much Chazal would disapprove?”
Indeed Chazal takes a very dim view of gambling. Not of doctors.
Chazal take a very dim view of not raising children properly by those who think being a good feminist is more important.
If you hate gambling don’t do it.
What do you want from me?
If you are a compulsive gambler I can’t help you.
I am not an addiction counselor and even if I were I couldn’t help you over the internet.
I’m sorry.
oomis1105-
During a phone call in between dates my wife asked if we could have an argument. I picked a topic which had nothing to do with us personally and I knew we wouldn’t agree on (we still don’t). We had a pleasant “disagreement” and at the end we agreed that we can respect each other’s opinions even thought they are different.
I was good to see that we could get along without agreeing on everything.
“It is obvious that you have never done EXTENIVE research. We are asking things you are trying to figure out ON a date, we are trying to confirm BEFORE the date. Including middos, personality, chessed, compassion, love of children, affectionate nature etc. Everyone knows that a boy and girl on a date are on their best behavior. Dont you think that speaking to a boy or girls roommate, co-counslor, neighbor, etc pple that have seen him through thick and thin would bring you the most accurate info? Dont forget that boys and girls are on their best behaviors on a date. Then of course the boy and girl can meet to “spend time having meaningful conversation about their hopes and dreams, the path they want to follow in the future,the kind of family they want to raise. “
You are totally right – I never did ANY research, my husband and I met the boy my daughter was dating (whom she met in college in a very wonderful chevra of frum girls and boys), and saw that HE was a real mensch. I met his family and saw that likewise THEY were real menschen, we spent time together before they got engaged, getting to know him and each other. I didn’t care one whit what type of tablecloth his mom used, whether or not his siblings went to xyz seminary, what the grandparents did for a living, or whether or not they stack their dishes or remove them one at a time. I saw with my own eyes (NOT from hearing about it second hand from friends and family who have a vested interest in showing someone off in the best light) the kind of middos my now son-in-law has. I saw the derech eretz he shows his parents and us, and above all how he treasures my daughter and granddaughter. No one’s friends will say about him anything other than “he’s a top boy,” “she’s such a wonderful girl.” Otherwise, why would anyone give those people as “references,” (I HATE THAT EXPRESSION – it’s not a job interview). People are so worried about loshon hara, do you honestly beleive friends and relatives, roommates, dorm counselors, etc. will EVER say something negative?
Oomis, BTW, those that follow the derech of doing research KNOW that you do NOT call/rely on refernces. Usually we call someone that knows both of us, or like I mentioned a roommate, co-worker, someone that has seen the boy and girl in his/her daily life (not while they know they are being observed). Info we ask doesnt have to do with table cloths or stacking plates…
schlakshammos, I couldnt have said it better myslef.
I think the readers who always want less meetings before an engagement need to understand that their whole lifestyle etc. is very different. And the daas Torah brigade don’t think one needs meetings altogether, just ask a licensed registered “Gadol” BUT the Gedolim, and Rebbes know enough to insist that it has to remain an individual decision. Many breakups could be stopped with proper intervention.
IMHO if there were some consequences applied (monetary and/or the inability to date for a year, the other side keeps all gifts) to those who break engagements, there might be less broken, also people would think more carefully before entering into a Shidduch when there are consequences in place for those who break it.
Hereorthere, I have never heard of a man pressuring a woman into going to a specific career. All the career driven women I know (that you claim are feminists) wanted to do so themselves.
Gitgezungt, there are consequences – there is a black mark on your record.
Some problems that you can’t see on a few dates are verbal and emotional abuse. A friend of mine was dating a guy who seemed awesome for the first 2 months. After that, thigns slowly started to unravel and she broke up with him.
Most people I know look at marriage as forever unless there are problems. I think its somewhat easier to work on your problems when you are married because you are already committed and divorce is an expensive prospect, especially with children. But some things are better not to be entered lightly.
SJSinNYC I never heard of a feminist who would marry a man who would not say “go do it, get that high career climb the next rung of the ladder, your career is more important then anything else in life” and the like.
I am always amused when people say that you should trust parents to have major input in your choice of a spouse.
Most parents today don’t even know what they themselves need, let alone their children.
“I am always amused when people say that you should trust parents to have major input in your choice of a spouse.
Most parents today don’t even know what they themselves need, let alone their children. “
Most parents I know know exactly what theyre kids need and the kids go along with it becuz they no the parents no best. That goes for everything – who to marry, wehre to send the kids to school, where to go to shul, wehre to move to ect.
SJSinNYC, The black mark on their record is a deterrent but not enough of a deterrent obviously. If people thought more carefully before making their decision, because the consequenses of breaking a Shidduch were greater than the black mark, we’d have less heartache.
Also, with the Shidduch crisis the way it is, I’ve heard of really good and desirable girls getting engaged to guys who broke more than one engagement, so the black mark doesnt affect the guys half as much as it affects the girls.
thank you mosherose! i’ll have to second that.
Hereorthere, clearly a career minded woman needs to marry someone who agrees with that philosophy. But you specified For example Feminism is infiltrating the Jewish communitry and often unless the man is going to push the women into becomming a doctor or lawyer or business executive or some other “high powered” career some of them think these days that he will “think of her only as an object”
I’ve never heard of a man PUSHING the woman into a high powered position.
While we are on this topic, id like to add here the stigma that unfortunatly comes with a broken engagement. its really sad that some wonderful ppl who have a broken engagement are treated like a nebach case. sometimes it just happens that it doesn’t work out. it doesn’t necessarily mean that they were too hasty. especially if it was the other side that neglected to say something or whatever. we have to be really careful and if their name comes up for a shidduch, they should be treated like everyone else.
SJS, I agree. I know married women who are physicians, lawyers, engineers, and other professionals. Not one of them has been pushed into her career by her husband. In fact, nearly all of them began their professional education and training before meeting their husbands.
I know married women who are physicians, lawyers, engineers, and other professionals. Not one of them has been pushed into her career by her husband. In fact, nearly all of them began their professional education and training before meeting their husbands.
Well, in my case, Eeees is currently in the process of obtaining a Master’s Degree for the purpose of following a career. I did not push her into it. I encouraged her to follow whatever path she wants — if she wants to be a SAHM, then I was for it. If she wanted to go for a career, I would support her too.
In the end, she did both. When the kids were younger, she was a SAHM. Now that my kids are all teens and don’t need the full-time attention as much, she’s pursuing a career.
The Wolf
I agree with Here or there.
WHAT? G@W agrees to the whole feminist thing?
No, of course not but it is a truth that bochrim want money, and they don’t realize what goes along with the woman having a job that can make some. Also the parents that come along with real money (who expect you to ask “how high, Sir”). The boys decide they really don’t want the money (enough), and break it off.
The Kollel system pushes the women, not the boys in general.
Each situation is different. All we can really do is be careful not to say no / break a shidduch for a dumb reason – if there’s a question ask daat torah – and pray that Hashem guides us to the right decision.
And I agree – don’t judge! It’s not fair when people automatically “black-list” someone because they were engaged before. Look into it, from a reliable, honest source. In some cases it may be something to worry about, but I believe in most it really was just an unfortunate situation – they were pushed, etc. There are a ton of cases where one or both sides were pushed to continue/move fwd and didn’t realize until it was (almost) too late, that it wasn’t the one for them. We should never know! So please don’t judge.
charliehall
Member
Indeed Chazal takes a very dim view of gambling. Not of doctors.
Ay, toiv she’broifim l’gehennom?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.