- This topic has 49 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 10 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Back in the depression era things were really bad people were hungry and in need of help they were desperate, post depression if you really needed the govt’s help you took it but were ashamed that you could not support yourself, today it is far too easy to get government assistance and people who use it think it is a right.
In the supermarket where i work as a cashier i see tons of people who don’t look to be hard on their luck (have fashionable clothes, fancy phones and handbags) unashamedly using ebt that should only be for the those most in need.
I am not allowed to call it food stamps but must call it ebt lest i shame the customer heaven forfend, yesterday after a customer used their ebt card there was a small balance and she said how much is my cost? and she did not look at all destitute far from it. Why do these people not realize that they are on ASSISTANCE from the govt? why do think it is a right? why do they have no shame???
Not all destitute people look destitute.
I think it is a bad thing to shame people, and it’s a good policy to not make it obvious who is getting assistance. Their feeling bad about it is their business, not mine or yours.
I also agree with RY23. Just because someone has nice clothing and a nice phone doesn’t mean they can afford rent and groceries.
1. It is called “entitlement” programs for a reason.
2. The needy should not be made embarrassed or ashamed to be utilizing help.
3. You should not be judging who is, or is not, needy based upon their physical appearances or dress.
4. Furthermore, the needy need not dress or act needy in public and may and should dress and act as the non-needy dress and act in public. And if they can’t, the non-needy should finance their ability to dress well.
5. Shame should not be brought back.
I’m here to agree with Goq.
And wonder what people think of the following-
Little kids (4-6-8 years old) don’t have much of an understanding of money or basic economics. But these same little ones are often sent out by their yeshiva or cheder with a pushka and/or raffles to collect tzedaka. Even the older ones know they’re going to win a prize, but don’t have much of an idea of altruism or Gemilas Chesed in their minds when they’re out collecting. They do get the idea, however, that asking other people for money is not just ok but praiseworthy (and you may even get a shiny new bike).
Are we raising little shnorrers?
Would we as a community be better off starting out by encouraging them to share their toys and be kind & considerate to others to set them on the right path of doing acts of Tzedaka and Chesed when they mature?
these destitute people-sadly in todays day-need to dress nicer then others in order to avoid embarassment so that their friends & neighbors dont know that they are poor. this is also why “it’s mostly the poor people that make the fancy simchas” (i have been in the Simcha Business for many years) for the same reason.
they have no choice.
on another note: you asked why they think its right. i tell you that lots of people think their allowed to cause they feel like their paying taxes on lots of things etc… so we can take back this way. ITS WRONG & a big chillul Hashem
Apparently, there is more shame in not having fancy clothing and accessories than going on food stamps.
golfer, asking for tzedaka on behalf on the needy or on behalf of yeshivos is more than just okay; it is praiseworthy. The children are taught correctly to collect tzedaka on behalf of others.
MDG, can you define for us what you consider to be “fancy clothing”?
The Goq,
today it is far too easy to get government assistance and people who use it think it is a right.
So is your argument that people/families who qualify for Federal/State assistance should not take it out of pride, unless their food insecurity or appearance exceeds some limit that you deem acceptably poor? These programs are designed to help prevent people and families from getting to that point.
In the supermarket where i work as a cashier i see tons of people who don’t look to be hard on their luck (have fashionable clothes, fancy phones and handbags) unashamedly using ebt that should only be for the those most in need.
1. Clothing from thrift stores does not come complete with tatters and patches, and can often be quite fashionable. For years, I purchased my Shabbos/dress clothes from thrift stores.
2. Now that clothing is mass produced and relatively inexpensive, it is rare to see someone destitute literally in rags, unless s/he is homeless.
3. Fancy accessories could have been purchased before the hard times, or could have come as gifts.
4. Even if the fancy accessories were purchased by the person/family while receiving assistance, it doesn’t necessarily make them morally bad. Poverty is frequently brought on or aggravated by poor financial decisions due to ignorance or other issues, including pride and shame, which you are advocating for.
I am not allowed to call it food stamps but must call it ebt lest i shame the customer heaven forfend,
Umm, no. You’re not supposed to call it food stamps because it is not food stamps.
yesterday after a customer used their ebt card there was a small balance and she said how much is my cost? and she did not look at all destitute far from it. Why do these people not realize that they are on ASSISTANCE from the govt? why do think it is a right? why do they have no shame???
What would have satisfied you, seeing her have to remove items from her cart and not purchase them while blushing and blinking back tears? EBT does not cover a lot of food. As you wrote in all caps, it is ASSISTANCE, so people are going to still have to pay for items out of pocket.
can you define for us what you consider to be “fancy clothing”?
ive seen people pull out their eBT card from their Coach or Michael Kors bag.
Yes, Joseph, I’m aware of what it says about matzdikei harabim. But these little children have no idea what they’re doing.
Are we careful to be mechanech them properly, to do it first without understanding, and then to continue as their cognizance grows?
Are we being mechanech them that they are obligated to be concerned with the welfare of others?
And might we do a better job of that by starting them out sharing and being kind with their own possessions?
Possession, or “MINE”, is something that even very little children understand. And sharing is a good way to start them on the path of being real ba’alei chesed.
I’m not sure what lesson they learn walking around with a pushka. Have you ever tried asking any of them, before you drop your spare change in, what they think will be done with the money? Try it. The results may surprise you. And may prove to you how far removed the endeavor is from any thought of helping anyone.
zahavasdad,
ive seen people pull out their eBT card from their Coach or Michael Kors bag.
So why does that bother you? Do you think they are hiding income from the government and thus receiving the assistance illegally? Do you think that poor people should not receive anything nice as gifts, or if they owned it already before becoming poor, to not continue to use it? And if they purchased it even when they really should not have, are you as unforgiving in the case of other mistakes people make?
As for the OP, I’ve known him here in the CR for a while. I highly doubt he was suggesting that we shame anyone. What he may have had in mind, which is completely different, has to do with people themselves having a feeling of shame that will keep them from doing certain things.
After all, aren’t we all identified as being-
Rachmanim, BAYSHANIM, v’Gomlei Chasadim?
I am sorry if you need Tzdekah you shouldnt be using a coach or Michael Kors bag. You dont have to have rags, but it doesnt mean you should have a luxury item either.
golfer,
“Are we careful to be mechanech them properly, to do it first without understanding, and then to continue as their cognizance grows?”
Yes. You have heard of children being given a candy or prize or a star when they do something correct like davening properly and other mitzvos, haven’t you?
“Are we being mechanech them that they are obligated to be concerned with the welfare of others?”
Yes. By collecting tzedaka for others who need tzedaka, this is perhaps one of the greatest forms of chinuch they can acquire.
“ive seen people pull out their eBT card from their Coach or Michael Kors bag.”
Yeah. I’ve seen people pull up in a Rolls Royce, have their chauffeur open the door for them and their personal assistant gave the cashier their EBT card for their high quantity steak purchase that they were paying for alongside purchases of a diamond ring and high-end stereo system at my local Costco.
The idea of having shame for taking freebies is mentioned in the 2nd perek of Derech Hashem. Hashem could have put our neshamot in Olam Haba, but that would have been shameful. Therefore he put us in this world, with all its tests and travail, so that we can earn that reward w/o shame.
“MDG, can you define for us what you consider to be “fancy clothing”? “
I misquoted TheGoq who said “fashionable clothing”. In any event, I meant clothing that go above what is normal for a person in his circumstances. For a Yeshiva guy, that might be $100 dress shirts. For an inner city youth, that might be a $200 pair of Nike Air Jordans.
Z-dad’s example of expensive handbags is also good (assuming that the bags are real and not counterfeit).
Of course you don’t want to shame them, but why do you want to use the term food stamps if that will shame them?
Goq, so you want EBT customers to show you they are shamefaced? How should they communicate to the cashier that they are really ashamed?
Maybe their Coach or Michael Kors bag or “luxury” items are simply practical. I know a jobless family of 6 who drive a Lincoln Town Car. Wanna know why? The parents understand the concepts of inexpensive, functional, and reliable transportation, which the Town Car provides.
The car is 23 years old by the way, so it’s hardly special anymore, but if all you can see is the luxury nameplate and not the context that’s all you need to judge what people should or should not have! Don’t forget price depreciation! Practical premiums of yesteryear get cheap fast.
One can easily tell a 23 year old Lincoln Town car from a new lincoln.
Coach or Michael Kors bags are not “Pratical” they stand out.
zahavasdad,
You dont have to have rags, but it doesnt mean you should have a luxury item either.
Why not?
Why isn’t anyone concerned with maraas ayin? When a forum person comes to a Medicaid clinic dressed inn fancy clothes and jewelry, it raises eyebrows with the other patients. The clothes and jewelry most likely were purchased in better times, but shouldn’t be worn to a clinic.
You mean v’hiyisem n’ki’im. Maris ayin is actual issur, and we don’t make our own gezeiros, but your essential point is correct.
Funny thing is, I don’t think the OP was referring to frum people in particular (I assume “forum” was autocorrected from “frum” in your post).
zahavasdad: Around 1990 Ford stopped building squares. If it’s not a square it looks pretty modern and some people will see “Lincoln” and trigger their ayin hara.
I also don’t see anything impractical about such handbags.
DY, yep, it was autocorrection.I have to remember to proofread. A good friend of mine had a legal secretary who would manually “autocorrect” his legal terminology. She didn’t last long
Should he take off his white shirt and necktie so he doesn’t look well put together and don a tee shirt and torn jeans so he looks like a pauper?
As someone who is about to get off assistance I can tell you firsthand that food stamps create a dependency on it that you get on food stamps when you need it and then you budget your life based off of it. It becomes very addicting to the point that you try to make less money just to stay on it. It has turned into an idea of “spending money for being “poor”” mostly because there are almost no restrictions and it’s on a card instead of checks
Some poorer people get their clothing from what richer people stop using when it’s still in good condition. So a very poor person could have designer clothing.
Joseph, they are called entitlement programs because the leftists have so defined them. However, according to Judaism the highest form of tzedaka is to create productive jobs. The Schach explains that being that the giver also benefits the recipient feels no shame (Chazal assume that a normal person is ashamed to take charity calling it “bread of shame”). Thus the real social heroes are the entrepreneurs.
In addition, because of the distortion of true tzedaka people with connections prefer to throw money at the needy rather than helping them to stand on their own feet. There is a story about a Jew who knew an evyon but did not tell anybody about his plight because he wanted to be able to give him a mattana every Purim. I also have a sneaking suspicion that some have learned from the socialists that the way to control people is to keep them dependent. They will get used to their programs and thus feel obligated to vote for the party that provides them.
From a different angle:
Rabbi Twerski MD says that some people who have low self esteem will try to put themselves above others to try to raise their self esteem. Arrogant people really suffer from low self esteem.
The Messilat Yesharim says that clothing is a function of Gaavah, arrogance. If people are trying to dress up (fashionable, flashy, etc), it could mean that they are trying to cover up feelings of low self esteem; they make themselves feel better about their lot in life.
Avi K,
Joseph, they are called entitlement programs because the leftists have so defined them.
Originally programs like Social Security and Medicare were called entitlements because the recipients had paid into the system via payroll taxes over the course of their careers, and thus were “entitled” to the benefits. Calling programs like Medicaid and SNAP entitlements can be viewed as derogatory, implying that the recipients feel a false sense of entitlement. So no, I don’t think they are called entitlement programs because leftists have defined them. I think “leftists” would prefer to call them a social safety net.
However, according to Judaism the highest form of tzedaka is to create productive jobs.
To give the poor person a productive job.
Thus the real social heroes are the entrepreneurs.
If entrepreneurship lifts poor people out of poverty through employment, then I agree with you here.
So what you’re saying is that those baal gaavahs walking around with Coach or Michael Kors bags or wearing designer clothing could use a self-esteem boost?
Avi K,
In addition, because of the distortion of true tzedaka people with connections prefer to throw money at the needy rather than helping them to stand on their own feet. There is a story about a Jew who knew an evyon but did not tell anybody about his plight because he wanted to be able to give him a mattana every Purim.
There is another story about a Jew who had a lot of money and knew a poor person but gave him nothing because he couldn’t get him a job, and Heaven forbid he stoop to give a lesser form of tzedaka then the best.
I can make up good stories too.
Yes, Joseph.
That’s my understanding based on Rabbi A.J Twerski. Although I think that it might take a trained professional to really get to the bottom of the problem.
OTOH, I have a rather affluent friend who wears expensive clothing, but I don’t think he has a problem. He doesn’t show off, not in clothing and not in attitude. You can’t even tell his clothing brands unless you look for it. And he speaks respectively to all, especially Talmidai Chachamim.
One persons Self Esteem Boost is a Kia and anothers is a Lexus
Avram,
A rising tide lifts all boats. If people who have decent jobs do better they buy more. This creates more jobs.They can also give more to those who cannot work.
Everyone agrees that jobs lift people out of poverty. Moreover, the hero is the free market. Examples” Singapore, Hong Kong (even the Red Chinese are unwilling to kill this goose) and Slovakia. Not to mention Israel. In the early 2000s, Israeli living standards were comparable with those of Western Europe. In 2006, Israel was rated as having the 23rd-highest quality of life in the world by the United Nations Human Development Index. In 2010, Israel was ranked 15th in quality of life. In 2011, Bank of Israel Governor Stanley Fischer said that Israel had a standard of living two-thirds as high as that of the United States. Overall poverty is high because of two very significant sectors that do not, by and large, participate in the job market: Chareidim and Arabs. (Wikipedia – Standard of Living in Israel).
A rising tide lifts all boats. If people who have decent jobs do better they buy more. This creates more jobs.They can also give more to those who cannot work.
Okay, but what Avram is talking about, helping a Jew get a job, is what we normally associate with the mitzvah of “vehechezakta bo”.
Avi K,
A rising tide lifts all boats.
Not always.
I generally agree with everything else that you wrote; however, discussing free market economies does not seem to be related to the subject at hand. Israel has universal health care, child care allowances, and other “entitlement” benefits that the US does not, yet, as you pointed out, the overall economy has grown well over the last 10 years. So the notion that social programs and jobs-based solutions to poverty are engaged in a zero sum game doesn’t seem correct.
Also, I’m not sure that the concepts of tzedaka, which are mitzvos for each Jew individually, would apply on the governmental scale, or even in the case of entrepreneurs. For example, if I started a small business that created 6 jobs, would that count as tzedaka for me? Now, if I knew of a poor Jew, and gave him one of those jobs, that would be tzedaka, but just the general job creation?
For example, if I started a small business that created 6 jobs, would that count as tzedaka for me? Now, if I knew of a poor Jew, and gave him one of those jobs, that would be tzedaka, but just the general job creation?
Perhaps it would depend on your intentions.
To the topic poster…
You asked a good question, and your feelings are understandable.
However…
Because, you are close to fire.
The Chofetz Chaim makes it very clear in his holy seforim you are judged as how you judge others.
This is one of the great secrets of the world. Think and reflect on those words very very carefully. You essentially decide your own judgement.
In your situation, it is very easy. You do NOT judge another person. And if you are easy going with people, the Heavenly Court is easy going with YOU.
Avram, child care allowance (and BTW, the US has allowances in the form of tax credits)s have been cut drastically and health care is semi-private (the National insurance Institute acts as a collection agent for the HMOs and also subsidizes them regarding the basic plan however all offer supplementary policies at extra cost on an actuarial basis). Pensions were privatized and converted from an entitlement basis to an actuarial basis.The phone company was privatized decades ago (and very quickly the time for getting a line went from years – and dependency on who was considered most in need and who had the most protektzia – to a couple of weeks.
As for job creation, whether or not you get the mitzva would depend on the machloket regarding whether or not mitzvot require intent. However, we compel people to give tzedaka so apparently it is more important that the needy are helped. I personally think that it is more efficient and a better form of tzedaka for the invisible hand to do so. The role of government is to pursue policies, both economic and legal (e.g. maintaining the integrity of contracts and property rights), that promote growth without inflation (thus a sound currency is a Tora value – see Shabbat 33b). As I pointed out, it is not only the jobs you personally create but also the jobs that are in turn created. Similarly, when you buy items you have a share in creating all of the jobs that are involved. When you save you also have a share as the bank lends money that creates jobs.
As for job creation, whether or not you get the mitzva would depend on the machloket regarding whether or not mitzvot require intent.
Even for mitzvos bein adam lachaveiro?
Avi K,
child care allowance (and BTW, the US has allowances in the form of tax credits)s have been cut drastically
And do you think this cutting is responsible for Israel’s economic growth?
and health care is semi-private (the National insurance Institute acts as a collection agent for the HMOs and also subsidizes them regarding the basic plan however all offer supplementary policies at extra cost on an actuarial basis).
Still does way more than Obamacare.
Pensions were privatized and converted from an entitlement basis to an actuarial basis.
Pensions!
The phone company was privatized decades ago
“The” phone company? Is there only one?
As for job creation, whether or not you get the mitzva would depend on the machloket regarding whether or not mitzvot require intent.
That seems like a stretch to me.
As I pointed out, it is not only the jobs you personally create but also the jobs that are in turn created. Similarly, when you buy items you have a share in creating all of the jobs that are involved. When you save you also have a share as the bank lends money that creates jobs.
So what I’m gathering is that in your view, the greatest way to perform the mitzva of tzedaka is to amass as much wealth as possible??
coffee addict,
As someone who is about to get off assistance I can tell you firsthand that food stamps create a dependency on it that you get on food stamps when you need it and then you budget your life based off of it.
Of course you budget your life based off of it. That’s why it’s there, to help you make ends meet. In your opinion, would you have been better off without SNAP?
It becomes very addicting to the point that you try to make less money just to stay on it.
Because at the income level considered high enough to be off it it, there is still a risk of food insecurity. The solution to this would be to raise the maximum allowable income.
It has turned into an idea of “spending money for being “poor”” mostly because there are almost no restrictions and it’s on a card instead of checks
Well, according to Avi K that is a great mitzva, because through that spending, you are ensuring that the cashiers and other grocery employees have a job. But given that SNAP generally provides less than $50 per week per person for food, which is not a whole lot, did you frequently have big issues with surplus funds?
lesschumras,
Why isn’t anyone concerned with maraas ayin?
How is this an issue of maris ayin? What aveira is being committed by wearing nice clothing?
When a forum person comes to a Medicaid clinic dressed inn fancy clothes and jewelry, it raises eyebrows with the other patients.
Probably not with the other patients. Maybe with the clinic staff. Doesn’t make it right though.
The clothes and jewelry most likely were purchased in better times, but shouldn’t be worn to a clinic.
I don’t agree with you, but I understand your reasoning in this specific case (Medicaid clinic). Out of curiosity, do you agree with zahavasdad’s more restrictive notion above, that poor people shouldn’t have fancy things at all, not just at the Medicaid clinic? I asked him why not, and he didn’t respond to me, but if you agree with him, I’d really like to hear the reasons articulated.
We live in a very generous society and people have begun to assume they are entiled to things without paying any price. I support Food stamps, medicaid Section 8, but more as last resort. That doesnt mean you have the right to drive your lexus while collecting Tzdekah. Nobody says you can have a car and get Medicaid, but it doesnt mean you should be driving a Lexus either.
zahavasdad,
I support Food stamps, medicaid Section 8, but more as last resort.
How would such a “last resort” condition be evaluated or enforced?
That doesnt mean you have the right to drive your lexus while collecting Tzdekah. Nobody says you can have a car and get Medicaid, but it doesnt mean you should be driving a Lexus either.
That’s just a restatement of what you already said above. I am asking you why you think that way.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.