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I define stam halacha as the unanimous agreed upon concept. It’s not so relevant to this debate. Something becomes a kula when it is not firmly justified in halacha. It becomes a chumra when there are alternate methods that are justified in halacha yet the practitioner only does this one. [Most minhagim are chumros. Some are kulos.] It becomes yehura when there is firm halacha, yet the practitioner insists on a higher standard for his own version of halachic reasoning.
“I define stam halacha as the unanimous agreed upon concept.”
None of the examples we have been discussing here are “unanimously agreed upon.” Essentially, it sounds like you are agreeing to my description of your take. You go by majority. Unanimous consensus almost never happens.
Do not forget that some of the founders of the Conservative Jewish Theological Seminary were also the founders of the MO Orthodox Union. The idea that those on or between the borderlines of Torah Judaism flirting with the other side of the border eventually go over the border, first tippy-toe but eventually full throttle, has proven itself throughout Jewish history.
Tefillin need to be black.
Dear Neville,
When there are different opinons that are all firmly justified, there is no stam halacha. That is a machlokes. Neither opinion is objectively a kula or a chumra.
“When there are different opinons that are all firmly justified, there is no stam halacha. That is a machlokes. Neither opinion is objectively a kula or a chumra.”
If this were true, nothing would ever be called a kulah or chumra. Give me one example of something you actually consider to be a kulah, and if you really want to show integrity, let it be one that you personally rely upon, otherwise you’re likely just making the standard MO point: “everything I do is the stam halacha, everyone to the right of me is doing chumros, everyone to the left of me is not ‘firmly justified’ (as you put it).”
Even within your current description, you depart from what you actually say in previous arguments. The Bach’s heter for chodosh is openly a limud zechus, not just an alternative opinion in a machlokes. The masses were openly eating chodosh with no existing heter, so the poskim were forced to figure something out. Same thing with cholov stam.
Thanks for so many good reference on cholov. Does this not come to metziyus – how (un)likely is it that a particular goyishe farm will engage in fraud? Surely, this probability decreased from the time we had a Polish peasant v. a modern farm that can lose FDA certification in case of misconduct. How many such cases are recorded by FDA over the years? Surely, you need someone with broad shoulders to put this reasoning into halakha and that is what Rav Feinstein did.
Also, would it help halachically if you mix up 3 bottles of milk from different sources or mix up 3 pieces of cheese, so you would have rov kosher milk?
Unless you live in Medinas Yisroel or in certain enclaves or on a kosher farm, the trade-off of cost and quality should be an issue.
So, especially, if your lifestyle is subsidized by a generous shver, or you rely on kulos to accept communal funds or goyishe welfare or pandemic emergency funds – and spend that money on less healthy amd more expensive foods? Then, H’V spend additional funds on treating health of children who were not eating healthy. I am not saying this is a clear cut issue. Just wondering whether people thought of the issue and have enough health education about this.
references:
R Salanter disregarded pas yisroel when on a health trip to waters, subsidized by a friend.
Alter from Novordok would not let his daughter buy new dress as they were paid as part of yeshiva funds.Dear Ujm,
The USA did not have any Conservative Jews back then. Only Orthodox and Reform. (Or not affiliated = irreligious.) [Or living on their own = slow assimilation.] JTS and OU were both started as Orthodox. There wasn’t a way to make Orthodox Rabbis until a few decades later. It was like trial and error. They didn’t want to make the future Conservative Movement. (The founders in Europe didn’t want to make the eventual Conservative Movement either.)
Dear Always,
It does not come down to a mitzius. The only question is was the process kosher. And do we know that it is so.
And no, such a rov wouldn’t help for many reasons.
Dear Neville,
Almost nothing by itself is objectively a kula or chumra. But when we have two differing statements, there will be a subjective chumra and a subjective kula. If the subjective chumra is revealed to be more than required by the law, then it opens the possibility tht the other statement is not a kula. This is all for me as a simple student. But if a qualified rav states xyz is a kula, then the goal is to ascertain his intention and nothing more. If it is a cohesive work such as the Mishna Berurah than we may put some effort in to understanding what his system of terms is.
Chalav Hacompanies from it’s origins was considered to be chalav yisroel. Rav Moshe’s first teshuvos on the topic seem to be affirming it.
Yoshon/chodosh goes way back and is hard to ascertain. Once the Bach/Rema/Others? were not rejected, it has become precedent. And I would be uncomfortable calling that a kula until it could be demonstrated that the earlier sources were of the opinion to be machmir in such a scenario. This last sentence is very hard to verify what was done. But it is easy to theorize what they held. I don’t rely on such theories.
Call what I do chumros or kulos, I don’t care. I’m not changing what I do based on peer pressure.
I would say I’m the lowest on the low here, but that spot is already taken.
I’m surprised he didn’t comment on these threads.
N0m: That’s the point. JTS started as Modern Orthodox. With time they became Barely Orthodox. And eventually they are what they’re now, Not Orthodox.
Same as the sub-MO group Open Orthodox did a century later. The OO started within the YU/RCA/OU world, where some are still affiliated.
“Almost nothing by itself is objectively a kula or chumra.”
OK, I disagree, but I glad you finally stated this outright. We just define it differently.
“Chalav Hacompanies from it’s origins was considered to be chalav yisroel.”
People like to say this, but I’ve never heard a real rav claim that this is actually what he meant, and in fact I’ve had several specify that this is definitely not what he meant.
“Once the Bach/Rema/Others? were not rejected, it has become precedent.”
Lack of rejection doesn’t mean it’s not a kulah. Any real kulah is, by definition, accepted. Otherwise it would just be considered an isser (eg. the Conservative “kulah” to drive to shul on Shabbos).
“And I would be uncomfortable calling that a kula until it could be demonstrated that the earlier sources were of the opinion to be machmir in such a scenario.”
I’ll try to provide sources when I get the chance, but it’s relatively widely known. The gemara explicitly discusses chodosh in chutz l’aretz. The Rema’s lashon is clearly that of someone reluctantly trying to be matir something. The reason there is somewhat of a yoshon revivalist movement today is due to how shaky the heterim have always been, and people are just now learning that.
Dear Neville,
To my knowledge pikuach hamamshala was in place for chalav yisroel Before Rav Moshe’s teshuva. It seems that was understood in his teshuva about the milk of a mechallel shabbos. Which was before the first teshuva about chalav hacompanies.
See the top paragraph on the left column.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=917&st=&pgnum=80Dear Neville,
I don’t know why you assume that the difficulties the acharonim were discussing is the practice of eating chodosh. Perhaps the problem for them was how to understand the sugya correctly. That is what they refer to as a dochek. The pnei yehoshua writes that he understands from the sugya that chodos is a machlokes on shel Torah and we must be machmir.
See his words. Starting with the last paragraph on the page.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14635&st=&pgnum=552My point is that it is a lot of precedent. For that alone, I’m uncomfortable calling it a kulah. It’s a machlokes. And since it’s shel Torah we go after the machmir. But in the sugya itself, it would not be a kula to learn that way. If you think this is to much pretzel logic, I cede the debate without taking back my opinion.
The Rema is reluctant to reconcile practice with theory in this manner. Is that enough to assume that his opinion is that it assur according to the law? I really don’t know how to ascertain that in a non-biased manner. So I don’t know. And, not knowing is a lacking in Limud HaTorah. Not a kula in Hilchos Chodosh.
I’ll easy take this back. But I’m really uncomfortable saying that people are learning more today and are more aware of how shaky it is. It’s a befeirushe gemara in kiddushin! There is no way the yeshivaliet of old missed this. The difference is that post war we have come in contact with the Sephardim and others that do not eat Yoshon. Now that it is an option, Yidden revisited the topic. And it changed.
Yavneh is LWMO
@neville-chaim-berlin I have heard b’sheim Rav Reuven and Rav Dovid (YBCLC) Feinstein that Rav Moshe ZT”L’s psak on Chalav HaCompanies (as you put it) is that we can rely on the USDA to make the food Chalav Yisroel and it’s not a heter.
I once asked a Rebbi what the definition of “kula” and “chumra” are in regards to modern halacha. He said that it’s simply a matter of who you hold of. Like in general the klal holds one way, and for whatever reason you choose to go according to a minority opinion. Depending on whether the opinion is more machmir or more meikel that would be a kula or chumra.
Like the Chazan Ish said that the s’chach of a sukkah cannot be held in place by something that itself is pasul for s’chach. He is a very minority opinion on that matter. But if you’re in position to follow it, then kol hakovod to you for making a sukkah that’s kasher according to everyone.
Similarly, if there’s a something that everyone considers assur, but there’s reasonable minority opinions who say that it’s really allowed, then given extenuating circumstances, it may be allowed.
Yserb, did you notice what i wrote earlier regarding rav moshes family? Rav dovid zt”l snd yblch”t rav reuvain are the only people who say that rav moshe held it was basically lechatchila. Every lther talmid in the world will tell you that he said it was bedieved. Every. Single. One.
And it’s corroborated by various igros.
Could be that rav moshe at one point held that it was lechatchila, and then was chozer…i don’t know.
Dear Yserbius,
Welcome back!
That we “rely on the USDA to make the food” isn’t the correct phrase.
You are correct. It is not a heter. It was halachic norm as is clear in Rav Moshe’s first teshuva. And is consistent with the methods for chalav yisroel in Europe.
I’m sorry to hijack this thread, not really interested in starting a new one and not interested in looking for one that it will fit into better
The shul that I daven shachris in (because it’s near my job) is MO. Today in between the first and second minyan I eavesdropped a little on a conversation that the rabbi of the shul was having with a father and his teenage son, it seems like there is going to be an engagement in the family and the other side might want to do it in a restaurant that’s not so kosher so the son wanted to know what he should do if that is the case. The rabbi said obviously you can’t eat the meat, but the cold food shouldn’t be a problem and that includes the salads
The boy wasn’t comfortable with it
End of story one
A few nights ago I was at a simcha of the Rav of my shul where I live and one of the attendees (who is a big part of the shul) was asking who’s the caterer and found out that it was a well known caterer, so he tells this story that he was at a different simcha a while ago and asked about the meat to the mashgichim over there and they didn’t know, so he goes around to the rabbanim at the simcha and tells them the mashgichim don’t know who gives hashgacha on the meat and everyone just kept on eating
I’m sorry if the point of my stories aren’t clear, but what I’m saying is, is that everyone is judged on his level, the MO kid that will be going to a not so kosher restaurant is giving more nachas to Hashem than the rabbanim that was ok with the meat
Yserb, thanks for the explanation, but then it comes down to who you consider the klal: everyone marginally observant, shomer shabbat, those who keep same humros/kulos as you, went to same yeshiva, etc
Some people decrease this circle 🔵 and think it is a chumra. See discussion between r Yannai and a guy who ate his food without knowing birkat hamazon.
Coffee – very poignant stories. Thank you for sharing.
The strength of individuals should also be noted. My Rosh yeshiva says over a story about a plane he was on, where most of the passengers were charedi. The food being served had a questionable hechsher, but most people were eating it. One passenger, a kippah srugah wearing man, asked the Rosh yeshiva if the food was alright, since he looked like a distinguished rabbinic person.
The Rosh yeshiva said no, and the man(with the rosh Yeshiva) spend the whole flight not eating. Sometimes people can surprise you – but there is a marked difference between MO rabbis and real rabbonim/roshe yeshiva.
The Rosh Yeshiva also said it was important to note that during their conversation on the plane, it became clear that the man possessed some krumeh hashkofos in other areas, but a maalah is a maalah and should be acknowledged.
coffee, interesting stories.
In the first one, Rav may understand better than the kid how important relationship with mechutonim are long-term, so it might be time for the kulos. All concerns about mechutonim kashrus level shold have been addressed before the shiduch.
In the 2nd story, Rabonim may have relied on hazoka – everything from that mshgiach or around them is always kosher. And maybe, also, any sofek could create a medauraite problem of ruining the simcha.
Avira > Every lther talmid in the world will tell you that he said it was bedieved.
If this were about eruvin, your argument has weight. but about milk – no. One might think that the sons, who are Talmidei Chachamim, were exposed multiple times to situations where milk was discussed at home. Even if they did not halav hacampaniesat home, I am sure there was a simcha somewhere where this was an issue.
“The rabbi said obviously you can’t eat the meat, but the cold food shouldn’t be a problem and that includes the salads”
That’s the kind of “rabbi” that would tell someone “obviously don’t eat the pork they serve, since that’s very not kosher, but you can eat the lobster, since that’s less of a problem.”
Joe,
I figured you would nitpick
A pessimist always sees the glass half full and the Mishnah in pirkei avos calls this an Ayin Rah
Btw lobster is a sheretz so it’s six lavin that makes it worse than chazir
I’m not dealing with the older generation they might be a lost cause
And in my case the salad is also sheratzim however it seems like MO has gone away from the shittah that lettuce is a miyoot hamatzoi
Dear Ujm,
You can eat salads from most Barely Orthodox homes. Unless in/from Israel because of terumos u’maseros.
Dear Avira,
I don’t know what you call talmidim of Rav Moshe.
Do they stand by Rav Moshe in everything else?
Artificial insemination. Using wipes on Shabbos. Turning of the gas range on Yom Tov.
The second story comes down to if the mashgiach was just overseeing the food preparation or certifying the caterer.
To add to the Chalav Yisroel discussion, Rav Ruderman ZT”L held that dehydrated milk is l’chatchila Chalav Yisroel and Ner Yisroel would serve OU-D food made with dehydrated milk.
@AviraDeArah Back? I never left! I think that other Rabbonim only agreed to Rav Moshe’s psak as a heter, and they argued on his view that it’s l’chatchila. I don’t think any of his talmidim claim that it’s a heter.
@coffee-addict I’m not sure what to take from that story. Obviously you viewed things one way, but I don’t know the precise circumstances, nor the people involved, to say that it’s an indictment of MO Yiddishkeit. I mean, there are plenty of very public controversial piskei halacha and hadracha to choose from.“You can eat salads from most Barely Orthodox homes.“
Where do you get that from? You know there are bugs in lettuce that three washes can’t take out
“@coffee-addict I’m not sure what to take from that story. Obviously you viewed things one way, but I don’t know the precise circumstances, nor the people involved, to say that it’s an indictment of MO Yiddishkeit.“
I was saying a compliment to MO (at least to that MO kid) not sure where you got that I was bashing MO
coffee, you do realize that you probably ate some treifa from whatever hashgoha. I presume your shochet checked the lungs, but how about all other possible problems that Gemora mentions?
Did your cow went a full physical? did she have heart problems, high blood pressure, diabetes, covid? Did she eat fruits and vegies and exercised daily according to modern recommendations? Likelihood that each particular cow was already treifa is pretty high. And the more different cows you consumed – the higher the chance. If you ate a hot dog – you probably ate pieces of 100 different cows in one bite.
Aaq – rov behemos ksheros; it’s an open chazal
Aaq,
What are you talking about?
Avira, of course, but so is rov cabbages, at least the ones I buy. But coffee seems to be not aware of all sicknesses cows might have, those mentioned in gemora and the modern ones caused by their unhealthy lifestyle and modern stress.
Dear Coffee,
True. I was focusing on the prep and not the bugs.
If they clean the bugs off their lettuce it’s the same as any other lettuce.
It’s not like even the frummest kitchens are guaranteed to know how to be bug free.
In the above story, are you sure the restaurant and the boys home are using different lettuce?
Aaq, you’re allowed to eat as many cows as you want, as long as you check the necessary treifos, even though some will have a treifah that’s not common, it’s not our problem. We go “basar” rov ((get the pun?)
“If they clean the bugs off their lettuce it’s the same as any other lettuce.
It’s not like even the frummest kitchens are guaranteed to know how to be bug free.”
N0mesorah,
Not sure where you live but the frummest kitchens are somech on a vaad hakashrus and don’t check their own vegetables
Avira, of course, I just had one. I am just suggesting that we need to deal with non-perfect situations. And sholom might indeed override the concerns. And the Rav who suggests it is not necessarily “meikel” but can be simply correct in balancing concerns.
At the end, maybe the kid could bring a loupe and inspect his own salad.
Dear Coffee,
Two points.
1. On your story. If this fellow eats the same lettuce at home as the restaurant serves, it’s all moot.
2. On the frummest. If they use only the clean lettuce. Some are too frum for that.
In addition to bridging the gap with MO, we need to bridge the gap with Larry, Curly and Shemp.
see Sotah 21, Rambam hilhos teshuva 10:2, Netivos Olam, Netiv Ahavat Hashem perek 2, Alei Shur v. 2 p. 152
I have a whole bunch of posts that I’m not sure which thread to put them on. Since this one was hijacked multiple times, I’ll put them here.
See the last teshuva in the Rama that Chodosh is a chumrah and most people aren’t careful about it.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19551&st=&pgnum=136
It also seems like lack of food wasn’t the issue.
Dear Avira,
Rav Moshe’s words on the synopsis of his own teshuva about chalev hacompanies.
מדינה אין להחמיר
Rav Belsky was not a talmid of Rav Moshe. On many kashrus issues Rav Belsky was more machmir. Especially in his personal diet.
Rav Weinberg quotes Frankel in the fourth chelek of his teshuvos.
Sadly, I couldn’t find it online. Many parts of Torah are being cancelled in our day.
The RCA had Gordimer responding to OO.
He wasn’t any good at it, so it is not surprising that they didn’t get in line behind him.
from the opening paragraph of the first teshuva on the matter, it is clear that RAv Moshe was dealing with a known precedent.
I happen to know that such set-ups were already being called chalev yisroel in the early 1900s.
Almost all the non hungarians used chalav hakompanies.
Also, we are ignoring the history of otherwise frum yidden that used cholov akum.
“Larry, Curly and Shemp.”
Don’t you mean Larry, Curly, and Moe? Or, Larry, Shemp, and Moe? Shemp replaced Curly.
N0m: R. Gordimer does not speak for the RCA any more than OO/YCT “rabbi” Nathaniel Helfgot, who is also an RCA member, speaks for the RCA.
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