Bridging the Gap Between The Torah World and MO

Just “appreciating” the fact that, according to the OP, the MO isn’t considered part of the “Torah world.” I shudder to think what world they do consider them to be in.

The Wolf

No Mesorah:

You are denying and distorting reality and, as in the past, not addressing the clear and specific points mentioned.

“If the commitment is relatively higher by the MO, than that should be applauded and used as an example.”
It isn’t though, assuming you mean commitment to halachah. Is anyone even claiming that to be the case?

“Applies to every group. Otherwise there wouldn’t be different groups.”
No, we had this similar discussion in another thread, and in fact, you were the one pointing out that different groups exist even without halachic differences.

“You’ll find Anti Zionism even by the militant Mizrachi.”
This is categorically untrue. You need to brush up on what Mizrachi means as a movement/hashkafa. They are, by definition, Zionist. If someone is Anti Zionist, then they can’t claim to be Mizrachi. We don’t mean Mizrachi as in Middle Eastern mesora if that’s what the confusion is.

“So leave it out of this discussion.”
No thanks. This is the YWN Coffeeroom.

Let’s also be honest that there is a newish classification of just plain “modern” when applied to those who came from black hat families but now don’t identify as such.
Growing communities (even in Lakewood) whose commitment is indistinguishable from MO, and perhaps even worse. They keep shabbos and minimal kashrut but might not put on tzitzis or only go to shul on shabbos.
Ideologically they aren’t “MO” Perhaps subconsciously they have deeper guilt feelings . But from what I can tell there are minimal differences.
This group is now having kids. I’m assuming the day will come soon when there are schools even in Lakewood whose children are growing up in houses where there are tv’s.
So why can’t we just agree that there are ideological differences between the camps . But there is much movement between these camps.

Dear Neville,

Please allow me to clarify.

Relatively – MO is starting with a lower halachic standard. If the law people go beyond that standard out of a personal commitment, that is worth noting. Every Rav in every group wants that from his lay people.

I would rather be on that other thread. Still, every group has it’s leniency and it’s weakness. The point of groups in general, is to have orthodoxy by association. Otherwise, let each family stand on it’s own merits.

The form of Anti Zionism by Mizrachi is that the government seeks it’s own power and justifications beyond advocating Mizrachi ideals. There are factions that broke of the State when they gave back land.

I don’t get the value of mixing together different topics. One who could only argue Zionism keeps bringing everything into it. In the end Zionism must be legitimized because it contains such a vast hold over all other arguments.

Neville, I’ll explain why plenty of people still identify as MO – myself included.
In the chareidi/yeshivish world, people are taught that learning in kollel is the only real option for life. College is viewed as a horrible thing by most yeshivos. People are taught that using the internet is forbidden, unless absolutely necessary to earn a living. Not everyone believes in that. Does it mean that people are lax in their observance of halachah? Absolutely not! But the yeshivish world believes in a cookie cutter system, where everyone must fit the same shape. Chanoch l’naar al pi darko is ignored.
Then we get to the chumros. Chumros for everything, a new chumrah comes out every week for something else. Chumros with no basis in halachah, with no real Rabbonim behind them – but in the yeshivish world, they end up accepted as the norm. People realize that many of these chumros are not really necessary, and don’t want to buy into a system that pushes them.
That’s partially why many don’t want to identify as yeshivish/chareidi.

Da
I left the MO world the day I went for my YU interview and saw posters of model’s hanging in the dorms. I realized you can’t be both a yeshiva and a university.
Ultimately after frumming out I ended up in Brooklyn college. It was a cesspool 30 years ago. Now very few black hat guys end up there. There are much better options like touro/landers
I would never pay for kids to go to a place like Brooklyn let alone an Ivy League college. But in the MO world they look at it as an act of distinction to go to Harvard as opposed to the travesty it truly is

All the discussions about protection from internet and secular colleges is important in terms of protecting people from assimilation. And this is practically very important and yeshivish/chasidic communities are more successful in keeping people within. At the same time, don’t confuse these measures (that Hazon Ish called “desert”) with all Jewish (Hashem’s) values. Torah does not require looking at down at people who have less chumros; dressing in black hats; staying ignorant of science; relying on non-Jewish charity or unwilling Israeli taxpayers to support their learning, etc, etc. This is like Chava confusing siyag with Torah.

Neville
And is possible that you aren’t actually aware of the off the derech problem in the yeshivish community ?
Because I find it hard to believe that there is someone out there who is blind to the fact that for every yeshivish kid who became “modern” there is at least one who is truly off the derech
And it isn’t just kids. I know numerous marriages broken up Bc one spouse decided to go off (and also one couple that decided to do it together)

Neville
I’m not saying that at all
By no means are these kids off the derech
They are products of yeshiva high schools that cater to these groups and were successful at keeping them on the derech
But their level of commitment is not what they’re rabbeim we’re hoping for. And they are getting married to similar girls.
Their kids wear yarmulkas (colored ones of course). And are going to frum play groups. And there will be a need for community type schools for their kids.
They are all over the place . Including clusters around Lakewood.

“And is possible that you aren’t actually aware of the off the derech problem in the yeshivish community?”
When did I ever deny this? Seemed like I was confirming the issue rather than denying it.

“I take issue with you calling them “off the derech” and it’s the same issue I have with Da labeling things as “chumros””
Call it whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy. If someone significantly steps down from how they were raised, I think that’s going off the derech. I think if a super chassidishe person shaved and became the same level of frum that I am, that would be going off the derech for him relative to his upbringing. It has nothing to do with my approval of communities or lack thereof.

“By no means are these kids off the derech”
The way you described them earlier certainly sounded like it. You now seem to be backpedaling a bit on just how off these people are.

There are many chumros that the yeshivish world keeps, and that’s fine. I don’t look at people who keep chumros as fanatics. My issue is when they expect everyone else to keep them. Here are some examples:
Mixed seating at simchos – there is no halachic need for separate seating, yet many yeshivish people expect everyone to do it, and will tell you that there’s something wrong with having mixed seating.

Tznius – many, many chumros were instituted. Knees and elbows covered isn’t enough anymore. Now you need everything down to the toes. Leggings aren’t ok, only tights are.

Chalav Yisrael – it’s a chumrah, yet this gets pushed by so many people. I even know of one person who threw out a Reese’s bar rather than give it to someone who eats chalav stam.

I don’t view yeshivish people as being more frum than me. It’s a different derech, and both are valid. I don’t try and push my derech on others. I’d like the same respect in return.

Da….oh where to begin, where do i start…

Separate seating is not a chumra. Rav moshe says any public affair requires a mechitzah mikar hadin, and is doubtful if a wedding is private or public..

Separation of genders was the norm throughout chazal, rishonim, achronim..only in later years did people deviate from it, because of modernity and lack of tznius in general.

Regardless, in Litvishe towns like kelm they had separate sides of the street…the fact that americanized jews didn’t do it doesn’t make a normative standard a chumra.

I will grant that rav moshe calls cholov yisroel in America a chumra, but keeping a normative halacha which had a heter given to it is not a “yeshivish” thing, it’s simply not relying on a heter, Especially when 99% of rav moshes talmidim – excluding notably his sons – held that rav moshe was only giving the heter bedieved, ahen cholov yisroel was hard to come by. Following those poskim – and those who argued with the heter to begin with – can’t be called a yeshivish chumra. It’s rav moshes chidush that it’s mutar.

Tznius – yes, and asheichem yisroel. The chasam sofrr writes that when the surrounding society is lax in an inyan, we are supposed to go to the other extreme to combat it. But most yeshivish people don’t keep all of those chumros…but the poskim are clear, for example, about the 4 inch rule, as well as things rhat are mikar hadin, like slits. Would you rather have chumros in a mitzvah that defines klal yisroel and adds kedushah (ain chiba lifnei hamakom yoser min hatznius..) or would you rather have a culture which teaches girls that it’s a “personal choice” and that they aren’t to be judged if they choose to dress against halacha?

Also, long skirts down to the toes are forbidden in bais yakovs; i don’t know where you get your info from, but it’s probably the coffee room in MO world where only satmar is anti Zionist and yeshiva people are “cavemen”

DaMoshe: Yeshivish people do not demand the MO stop having mixed seating. But do not expect Yeshivish or Chasidish friends or family to attend your weddings if it is mixed seating. They do not have to, should not and will not, compromise their “chumra” to make you happy.

And don’t expect them to eat from your house, with your cholov stam and hechsheirim they do not rely on. Or come into your neighborhood where the women are running around in short skirts and shirts. Or attend your shiurim where your rabbis preach wrongheaded hashkofos.

And the fellow who threw out the Hershey’s chocolate holds it is treif, per the psak of his posek. So he cannot give it to someone else, even if the other fellow holds otherwise. It isn’t a chumra. It is halacha, even if you disagree.

If you do not eat chalav hacompanies, would you consider plates treif?

Aveirah, you’re missing my point. People want to accept those chumros? Fine, not a problem. But don’t start putting down those who don’t keep them. As for where my information comes from, it’s from my own observances and experiences. As for you… you know how when some people go OTD, they become the biggest antisemites? You’re the same way with MO. You decided it wasn’t for you, and left that group, and became so virulently against it that you just can’t possibly think of any good in it. Get over it!

Chaim Berlin: The point isn’t whether people always go like R’ Moshe or not. The point is that eating chalav stam is not assur, but baal tashchis is. This guy put his chumrah over an actual halachah.

“or to your dog.”

And here we have a contender for most out of touch comment made this year

UJM- Hmm… I wonder if that’s true. At the end of the first perek of Yevamos, it says that even though Beis Shamai declared some keilim as tamei, and Beis Hill declared those same keilim as tahor, they still loaned things to one another. The meforshim explain, it’s because they had mutual respect for each other’s opinions, and Beis Shammai trusted Beis Hillel that BH would never loan BS a kli that BS considered tamei, even if BH themselves found nothing wrong with it (the parallel here is that someone who only eats Chalav Yisroel should be able to trust that their Chalav Stam neighbor would never serve them Chalav stam).

But the meforshim say nothign about the reverse… would BS lend BH a kli that BS considered tamei even if BH considered them tahor? Would BS respect BH enough to allow them to be meikil, and to even be a part of that kula, when they themselves hold it’s a problem? I always assumed that BS would have no problem doing this but I could be wrong.

Simcha: Cholov Yisroel is NOT a Chumra. Cholov Stam is a Kula. (Even the poskim that permit use of this Kula acknowledge that it is a Kula.) And not all poskim hold it is a valid Kula. In which case, to them, Cholov Stam is Cholov Akum and thus unkosher. If they hold it isn’t a valid Kula, they are prohibited from even facilitating or helping another Jew obtain Cholov Stam, even if the other fellow does use the Kula.

Your comparison to Beis Hillel/Beis Shammai is mistaken. A more apt comparison would be the MO Jew telling a Chareidi that you cannot eat the food from my home since my keilim were used to make Cholov Stam food and/or I used my pots and pans, dishes and utensils with food products using hechsheirim that you hold isn’t acceptable. Therefore I’ll feed you with prepackaged food with a heimishe hechsher and I’ll serve it to you on paper good and plastic utensils.

Beis Shammai certainly would not loan Beis Hillel keilim that Beis Shammai held is tamei since a) they wouldn’t keep such keilim and b) even if they had it, they hold it is tamei so they are prohibited to facilitate another Jew using it.

DaMoshe,

“There are many chumros that the yeshivish world keeps, and that’s fine. … Here are some examples:
Mixed seating at simchos… Tznius… Chalav Yisrael…”

None of these chumros were invented in the past week, or even in the last generation. And none of them were made without rabbinical guidance.

“Mixed seating at simchos – there is no halachic need for separate seating, yet many yeshivish people expect everyone to do it”

I don’t think they “expect” everyone to do it. And “many yeshivish people” may indeed view it as a halachic issue. So when they’re invited to a mixed simcha, they have to figure out how to navigate it.

“and will tell you that there’s something wrong with having mixed seating.”

Other than online debating forums like this one, how often does this happen to you in real life? Are you making mixed seating simchos in New Square or Kiryas Yoel? Are your family members largely yeshivish or chassidish? Are you inviting tons of yeshivish and chassidish people to your simchos? Because I doubt yeshivish and chassidish people are out roaming the streets of Teaneck looking for simchos to criticize.

“Tznius – many, many chumros were instituted. Knees and elbows covered isn’t enough anymore. Now you need everything down to the toes. Leggings aren’t ok, only tights are.”

Yeah, there’s some variability in communal dress standards. But women in Yeshivish communities don’t typically wear dresses to the floor. Your description seems like scattershot stereotypes.

“Chalav Yisrael – it’s a chumrah, yet this gets pushed by so many people. I even know of one person who threw out a Reese’s bar rather than give it to someone who eats chalav stam.”

I have no idea what went on regarding the Reece’s candy incident, but are MO communities free of jerks? Through personal experience, I can say unfortunately not. Should I paint an entire community based on negative interactions with a handful of people? Re: chalav stam, for some it’s a chumrah, but for others (e.g., Satmars, Chabad), it’s considered chalav akum and completely forbidden.

“I don’t view yeshivish people as being more frum than me. It’s a different derech, and both are valid. I don’t try and push my derech on others. I’d like the same respect in return.”

This feels like moved goalposts to me. The point of your previous post was why right wing MO supposedly refuse to identify as yeshivish. And the tone of your criticisms indicates both that you do not indeed see the derech as valid, and that your picture of them is more of a caricature than reality.

Read R’ Bender’s sefer on Chumash, from last week’s parsha, to see what a Rebbe at Darchei held about chalav stam. I’ve posted the story before, and it’s something everyone should know.