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The bride’s traditional wedding vow (in the non-Jewish world) is “to love, cherish, and to obey” her husband. The husband’s vow is only “to love and to cherish” his wife.
What is the meaning of the wife’s vow to “obey” her husband?
We’re in the Yeshiva World. How should we know?
In the feudal system, everyone had a duty to obey his/her overlord/master. A wife owed a duty to obey her husband, just like a knight to obey his baron, or a serf to obey his overlord. Jews were not part of the feudal system, so we never had a duty to obey anyone (we also had no rights, but that’s another story).
The significance of the question is that the “obey” thing is accepted nearly universally as a Jewish value. In previous threads in the CR, there were heaps of comments about the husband as the melech, while the wife was relegated to the position of slave (I’m exaggerating, but not by much). It sounded from these opinions as if the “obey” thing was a Jewish value, and that is clearly not true. The only obeying between spouses found in the Torah is ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????, with ????? being Divinely instructed to obey his wife, ???. I suspect the OP was to trigger just this discussion, not to explore the boundaries and rules of the non-Jewish marriage vows.
Like much else, the Christian and Muslim world took much of their morals from us, ostensibly. Of course they hardly keep what they purport to, but that is another point entirely. Yes, this point of the wife’s obligation to obey her husband also, essentially, comes from the Torah. See this thread from a more in-depth view with Torah sources demonstrating such:
It essentially comes from Bereishis 3:16 (????? ???????? ????????????? ?????? ???????? ?????:), Bereishis 18:12 (???????? ?????:) and is cited as Halacha by the Rambam, Hilchos Ishus 15:20 (??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???. ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?????. ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???????? ???????. ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??????:) and many other sources.
I’m sorry. I also didn’t think the Torah says ???? ????? ?? by Chava.
It’s clearly not a Jewish thing, because at some point in history (before Chava’s misstep) she was not subordinate to Adam.
Oh. The adage to Avaraham Avinu ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????, is not for husband to obey wife, but to listen to a Navi, for Avaraham was a tafal (inferior) to her regarding nevius. So says Medrash. I think.
It is openly stated in the Rambam that a Jewish wife is to obey her husband (with certain limitations). Zeeskite, we are in the after Odam ha’Rishon’s chet matzav — that’s the difference.
I’m no expert in the Rambam, but doesn’t the Rambam write something similar to a husband in regards to his wife?
How do the meforshim on chumash explain hu yimshol bach?
They should stress this point in Beis Yaakovs and in Kallah classes. The girls aren’t sufficiently aware of this halacha.
I knew this already in high school and was reminded of it by my kalla teacher as well. Though I don’t know how common my experience is.
Whiteberry:
No, there is no similar halacha for the husband to obey, as the wife is instructed (“????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???. ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?????.”). Rather the Rambam says a husband must love and honor his wife:
??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????. ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????.
On another thread, I quoted a statement from the Gr”a (in Mishlei) and the Baal Hatanya where they drew a distinction between a ??? and a ????. They each noted that a ??? is someone that is ???? ????. This denotes someone who is similar to others, but is chosen to serve as a leader. This rule is with the full agreement of the subjects. In contrast, a ???? denotes someone who assumes the position of ruler by force or strength. The only mitzvah from the Torah was to choose a ???. All the writings about marriage refer to the regard due the husband as a ???. What is missed by the chauvinistic view is that this ??? is such because the subjects(in this case the wife) choose the ??? voluntarily. The other form of mastery is one forced on the subject, and this is not the expectation of the Torah for marriage.
Most young kallahs begin their marriage according this royal respect to their husbands. Unfortunately, if the husbands have not learned that they need to earn the respect, and they behave in ways that do not earn that respect, it soon fades into negative emotion, and trouble in the marriage. And when respect is not based on deserving behavior, it loses its clout as respect and becomes nothing more than subservience to dominance. That is incompatible with Torah.
Please review the sforim about ???? ???. Nearly without exception, there is a chapter about the obligations of the wife to the husband, as well as one of equal length about the obligations of the husband to the wife. The term “obey” sounds too much like someone expecting a response to orders, as one might hope to have trained a pet. That is NOT marriage, and no one should ever construe it as such.
Pretty hard to argue with shlishi as he quotes the Rambam.
But I’m waiting for someone.
People just find it so annoying when the Rishonim do not concur with their opinions on how the world should be run.
golfer: Until recently, no one – including the goyim – disagreed that a wife must obey her husband. It was only beginning in the 1900’s, after the advent of feminism that it was ever disputed. Before 100 years ago, if anyone argued that a wife doesn’t need to obey her husband, he would have been looked at as missing some marbles. There was never before a misconception that men and women are “equal”. That is a new idea that secular society has been trying to drill into everyone for almost 100 years now.
Lulei D’mistifina, I would say that we have to wonder if the Rambam’s society influenced this Halachah. After all, he also says that a husband should beat his wife if she doesn’t listen to him, something which no one nowadays would agree to.
“There was never before a misconception that men and women are “equal”. That is a new idea that secular society has been trying to drill into everyone for almost 100 years now.”
Avhaben, So what you’re saying is that women should be considered inferior to men, & the only reason that the concept doesn’t exist entirely is bec the non jewish culture has decided so? Other than that you have no reason to believe that the concept might have some insight?
Please elaborate, thank you.
NOMTW: The point is a very Jewish one. It is abundantly clear from Halacha that men and women are not treated “equally” in a marital relationship. Each one has their own — and very different — defined roles. This does not make one “inferior” to the other. Though it is correct to define it as different.
Sam2, where does he say it? Plus, according to you, it’s only if she does not do what she must do. It is no different from beis-din punishing somebody for not doing his duty.
mdd: Sam is referring to the Rambam in perek 21 halacha 10. Though according to almost all meforshim Rambam is saying that Beis Din can hit the wife if she doesn’t do her marital duties (after repeated warnings.) Not that the husband can hit her, as Sam implied.
How about a husband’s responsibility towards his wife? In the kesubah doesn’t it say that he is supposed to support her financially? Since when is the wife or her parents responsible to support HIM? just venting.
“Since when is the wife or her parents responsible to support HIM?”
That’s probably why men say shelo asani isha and we say sheasani kirtzono. because women get both chava’s curse and now adam’s too and society allows (encourages!) them to deny their responsibility.
Imaofthree, you are right. Unless the woman is mochel.
Let everyone do their job, and everyone will be happy: The husband must honor, love and support his wife. The wife must honor, love, fear and obey her husband. Everyone should follow the Torah and everyone will be happy.
I admit Rashi is not a halacha sefer, but, he doesnt interpret “vhu yimshol bach” the way it is implied here.
?????? ???? (?????? ?:??): ???? ??’ ????? ?????, ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????.
Toldos Yitzchok (Bereishis 2:21): And Hashem caused man to become unconscious [when He made Chava] [associated with the creation of woman] – hints that man should make himself unconscious when he is in his house and not to be critical and fussy with his wife and household.
I like that vochindik!
Who is the Toldos Yitzchok?
Bubka: Interesting. The Lashon of the Rambam is in plural, which does imply Beis Din. However, the Ramban quotes it in the singular, which would imply the husband himself.
To people quoting ???? ???? ??, way to quote out of context. Here’s a little more from that paragraph:
??? ????????? ????? ???????? ???????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ????? ???????? ????????????? ?????? ???????? ?????. ????????? ????? ???? ?????????? ?????? ?????????? ????????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????????? ???????? ????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???? ????? ????????. ?????? ?????????? ?????????? ???? ??????????? ??? ?????? ?????????. ???????? ???????? ??????? ????? ??? ???????? ??? ????????? ???? ????????? ?????????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????????
The context is that it is a curse, not a directive.
Would you also say that the Torah is against painkillers during childbirth? Or against technology that stops weeds and thorns from hurting plants? If yes then we have bigger things to argue about.
What is wrong with society reaching the point where they “fix” ???? ???? ?? as well? On the contrary, it would seem from the context that modern sensibilities in this area are something to celebrate!
yitayningwut: There is still the Rambam in Hilchos Ishus 15:20 that was cited earlier as Halacha.
[as an obligation from the wife] than you suggest above. (See the other thread linked above.)
Too many names for me.
Yitay, do not be lazy — look up the sourses.
Ben Ish Chai (Torah Lishma 319):
Question: Is a wife obligated to listen to her husband when he orders her to do ridiculous things? For example, does she have to listen when her husband demands with threats that she should ride on a broomstick in the courtyard like little children do or to bray like a donkey or bark like dog? She refused because of embarrassment. Does she in fact have an obligation to listen to her husband even for foolish things because a woman is obligated to honor her husband and to do what he wants because that is his happiness? Or do we say that she has no obligation to listen to foolish demands?
(Translation by Rav Eidensohn)
Joseph,
What’s the ashkenazi psak?
Herr Himmel – me and my husband are going to love, and listen to each other h’h.
BOTH spouses should respect and obey each other equally for the priceless treasure they each have for one another.
I.e. if you loved Hashem/parents so much for all they do etc… You would be willing to do anything for them
Mashiach Agent – i agree.
Rav Sholom Arush has a book for women on Sholom Bayis and a book for men on Sholom Bayis. In the introduction to each book, he warns the opposite gender not to read the book, but the warning to men is MUCH STRONGER!! In the men’s book, I think he just gives a bracha to women who don’t read it, and in the women’s book, he gives a REALLY strong warning to men not to read it.
Basically, the obligations of a woman to her husband are for HER; they are not meant for him to hold over her head. He has to worry about his obligations to her, not her obligations to him!
lilmod, why’d you ignore his warnings not to read his men’s book? 😉
Many rabbononim disagree with R. Arush’s marriage advice.
Also, Rambam and the halacha specifically state the husband should take his wife to beis din if she fails to perform her various marital obligations for him.
Meno, the Ashkenazi poskim pasken no differently.
We got that set as a wedding gift
“Since when is the wife or her parents responsible to support HIM?”
They aren’t. Every Askenazic Ketubah for the past millenium has stated otherwise.
And since we are quoting Rambam it should be noted what else Rambam wrote, about being supported in learning by the community:
?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????:
Joseph – lol, I was waiting for someone to say that! I’m not exactly the kind of person you can put a book in front of and tell me not to read…
Meno, are you a man or a lady? Just curious.
Charliehall – Rav Moshe Feinstein has a Teshuva where he speaks very harshly against people who don’t learn in Kollel because they don’t want to take money to enable them to learn.
Don’t worry lilmod, I also plan to disregard his warnings and read his women-focused book too. 😉
Joseph, he said it’s worse for men!!! He had much stronger warnings for men!!! That’s cuz it will cause more of a problem for a man’s shalom bayis if he reads the women’s one. For women, he just gave them a bracha if they don’t read it. That’s okay – I’ve gotten brachos from more chashuve people in my life.
I disagree with him as it pertains to myself.
Joe – how many SN’s you got on this page?
“is instructed (“????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???. ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?????.”).”
And also work at least 40 hrs. a week. Also take care of the kids and do all the housework!
Joe – Did I forget anything?
I am a man
(am I allowed to say that?)
I wonder don’t they talk about this in seminaries? I’m sometimes confused about what the torah wants from women. But no one talked about it in the yeshiva. I’d expact they would in seminaries though.
Person1: Why do you assume they don’t teach this in the seminaries? Most do.
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