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if the mens thing had never been discussed I wouldve said i want to look pretty – i dont care about self respect. I’m still not perfect – but it helped to learn about that
WOW! So much has been written! So I will add my two cents at this point. Tznius is a mitzvah and it should be a viewed as a Mitzvah “aseh” and not as a Mitzvah “lo ta’aseh” which is the impression I am getting from most of the posts, and that is where I think it has been going wrong basically.
The worst problem with the mitzvah of tznius is that it is not being taught in the way it should be. The beauty of keeping the mitzvah of tznius is not being taught neither by parents nor by mechanchim. The mitzvah of tznius is never discussed with young men although it should be in so many ways. Modesty really applies to both because it effects the entire Jewish family. It effects the way one dresses and the way one conducts themselves. So for instance, if boys assume foul language, that for sure is not tznius. If they run around in shorts or bathing suit or loud clothing themselves, that can also be considered a breach of tznius. Being a ba’al gaiver is also a big breach of tznius. I think you get my point. And the worst of course is getting drunk at a kiddush or other simcha.
As far as girls and women are considered. If they were taught the beauty of tznius and why WE are entrusted with this mitzvah as we are entrusted with some of the other very special mitzvos I believe there would be a different attitude. And yes, we can be tznius and fashionable at the same time. And yes we can be tznius and cover ALL of our hair at the same time. It is a matter of choosing to do what is asked of us because we understand why we are doing it and because we WANT to perform the mitzvah and not because we are forced to do so or we will be judged by not doing so.
A young woman who has spies following her on Sundays will definitely break the rules as soon as she graduates. Teach by example, and teach the beauty of Yiddishkeit, the joy and simcha of being Yiddin. Teach children why we do what we do and why we are so happy doing it. Why we appreciate the mitzvos Hashem has given us and we aspire to go from madreigah to madreigah. Kids cannot just do things by route. If they do at one point they will question it and when they don’t have the answers, they will choose not to do it.
Nothing will change until the Yeshiva systems we have in place make the changes necessary to teach our children in the manner that they truly need to be taught, with love and simcha for ahavas yisroel and for yiddishkiet, torah AND mitzvos.
EDITED
R.L. and when you’ll tell that girl what it does to men she’ll say well other women dress the way I want to so in any case men react in that manner, so what’s the difference if I dress that way as well?
That’s why I keep on repeating in numerous threads that it boils down to bechira. There are excuses for everything under the sun. However is not willing to do the right thing, will not. It doesn’t matter what you tell them.
im not saying that other schools arnt tznius but in the chassidush schools its very easy for them to be dressed properly
jewish girl, if non-Chassidishe schools would stress the importance of tznius the way Chassidishe schools do, then they wouldn’t have such a problem.
I admit I did not read any more than the 2 most recent messages on this thread and it is entirely possible that everything I write is entirely moot, however, I will write it anyway.
Why is everything always, women this and women that, the clothes are too long, too short, too tight, too colorful. Tznius is a lot more than hemlines, necklines and colors. If we are so sure that all our woes are a result of a “breach in tznius” (last time I checked there was no navi in my neighborhood), why dont we focus on yeshiva bachurim who wear Tommy Hilfiger (i’m picking on tommy because he is an anti semite, but I could just as easily written Nautica, Ralph Lauren, Izod etc) logos on their shirts, the fancy stitching on their shoes the belts with the buckles that could knock out a bull, the latest and greatest in thick framed glasses, men driving cars that say look at me, like an escalade, people building homes that stick out like sore thumbs on every block. Why are so many people obsessed with the showiest hat with the largest brim, the snazziest tie and so on. If everyone is so concerned with the attention females draw to themselves when they dress in a certain way, we should similarly be concerned with everything else that we do, men, women and children alike, that draws attention to ourselves. I’m tired of reading again and again, its those women who dress a certain way that are the cause of all klal yisroels ills.
thx apushatayid
aries2756, there are different ways to encorage people to do mitsvos, but it is emes that for a woman to be seen untsniusdic is a lo ta’ase(lifnei iver). It might be that with some women it is not the point you want to advance, but it is the emes.
jewish girl – How can you make such a generalization about chassidish girls vs. litvish/sefardi? I come from an out of town community and the few times that i was “in town” i was really turned off by the level of tznius by both litvish and chassidish. It is a nissayon for EVERYONE. and each one has their fights in their individual places.
apushtayid – you are right about bochurim also being into all the “brand names ” etc and y are we blaming girls and women but lemaasa – yes men have a chiyuv and mitzva of tznius – it’s much more limmited and it is a womens obligation to be tzanua. it’s one of the few special mitzvos she was given (for all those who want to put on tefillin, wear talleysim… i actually once read/heard that corresponding to the special mizva of tefillin women cover their hair and upper arm) Lemaasa its a CHIYUV of tznius and men, well it’s not spelled out that it’s wrong to wear all these… although actually it is “kedoshim tehyu”
someone mentioned earlier that you can’t tell girls, you could barely teach them the parsha. (tuma after birth) you are 100% right. They are still immature and giggly about it all but when they get a little older it should be mentioned – i don’t think by the school . classrooms are not a good place for such discussions.
Apushtayid, women by not dressing tsniusdic cause forbidden thoughts, yetser horah for gilui arayos R’L and etc. — serious issurim, serious problems. For men not to stick out is an inyan, but is is by far not as chomur as the issues with nontsnius regarding women,
Clearheaded (Philosopher) brings up a good point. There are TWO reasons for Tznius.
One reason (which should be tought more) is the “Hatzneya Leches” aspect, and how everyone (men and women) should act and dress in a manner befitting a Torah Jew.
The second reason (which I am afraid is more stressed) is the “you can’t do that/wear that”, which bases off of the technical aspects of Tznius (like the issur for a man to see a woman who is not Tzanua (elbows knees and neckline)). Girls are tought what is (or is claimed to be) Assur vs. “How to dress as befitting a Bas Yisroel”.
Teaching what is Assur is what drives girls crazy (and not wanting to be Tzanua). The first aspect would teach them self-esteem and be a better lesson for life. Judaism is a positive religion, and going negative could drive girls off.
Philosopher – when all else fails you have to bring up the topic of men’s reaction to women dressed provocatively. This thread is called “Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel” in other words, girls are dressing wrongly already – they’ve all heard the speech on self dignity, apparently they’ve chosen to ignore it. You have to explain to the girls that it’s not ONLY about self dignity, but rather that they also have a responsibility not to provoke guys. Maybe they dont really understand fully why they can’t just say “OK, so I don’t have self dignity – now I’ll dress however I want”
parents!! someone once came to a current rosh yeshiva and said i only have 1/2 hour a day to spend with my son, what should i learn with him?
so he answered if you only have 1/2 hour to spend with your son play ball with him !! point is if you make time to have a meaningful relationship and to acknowlegde your teens feelings and to say yes when you can and no when it counts.. many times your child will follow your wishes..also ppl having a hard time with their teens ask yourselves the following question. is my home a fun place to be ? how important is it to me to say MY dvar
torah at the shabbos table etc etc when the whole focus of our educational system is what you wear and not who you are..we can expect trouble
apushiter yid i couldnt agree with you more..our yeshivos should discourage our boys from indulging in designer clothing , and the fancy cars and homes are just showing ppls low self image and their need for approval seeking.
Sof Davar. Neck lines and hem lines are an aspect of tznius that applies more to females than to males (unless you feel it is exclusive to females and you have no issues with a male walking around in a tank top and shorts?). My point is however, that hatzeah leches is a lot more than neck lines and hem lines and it applies ot everyone. So, unless someone is a navi, stop making the claim that it is breaches in how females dress as the cause for all of klal yisroels problems.
Food for thought. If frum males had their priorities straight, would frum females even think about dressing inappropriately?
Perhaps it is not the fault of females how they dress, after all it is the fathers and husbands that allow their wives and daughters to dress how they do, so it is the mens fault.
apushatayid:
Now its fathers and husbands problems?
Shouldnt it be the mothers and girls problem? Does a boy need someone standing over his head telling him put on tefillin today, make sure you daven, make sure you learn…yet girls need someone on their head about Tznius or else they wont do it? Wheres their own motivation to do whats right?
apushtayyid- i think i wasn’t clear in my post before. I agree with what you said however it’s a greater chiyuv for women when it comes to dress. and it’s different than boys/men because it can cause men to have thoughts… sorry to say but you can not say that frum fm would dress inappropriately if males had their priorities straight. as mentioned earlier many girls and women dress the way they do because they like it. nothing to do with men. Many girls don’t even chap what it can cause for men.
aries2756:
I dont know what you are talking about. We dont put a lot on women. What exactly do we put on women and what do we not do that we have to “come up to the plate” about? Who goes around telling women what they should do “all the time.” Is it really too much to ask of them not to dress untznius? Last time I checked a guy has a lot more mitzvos to do. We arent telling them to dress like Rebbetzins but cover the essentials and dont wear clothing that skin tight. The situation with uncovered knees and then some and high slits and super tight clothing is just out of hand and has no place by a frum girl.
What kind of chinuch will these girls be passing on to their children? Oh its ok to bend the rules when its convenient for you to do so? Thats not Judaism.
<i>Wheres their own motivation to do whats right? </i>
Apparently they’re not getting that motivation…maybe it’s time to change the attitudes we use when teaching tznius. Because according to the “contemporary BY system”, girls are supposed to have as many kids as she can, raise the kids (chas v’shalom a woman should ask her husband for help in the house!), take care of the house (ditto), support her husband and family (chas v’shalom a man should help with that in any way, including with babysitting!), and of course, restrict HERSELF because of the MEN’S taivos. For many teenagers going through the system, they feel, what’s in it for me? Is it any surprise that they’re trying to push out in any way they can??? I agree with many of the posters here, I think it’s time to rethink the attitudes we give girls towards tznius. Personally, my tznius growth came with a growth in self-respect. Suddenly, I could cover more yet maintain my self and personality. I think many girls could benefit from a lesson in this way…
aries – no one is putting all the “blame” on women and girls! CALM DOWN! this thread is bringing to attention something that is currently a problem in our circles. There are many other issues that are spoken about – shmiras halashon, how many shiurim, seforim and speeches focus on that. What about limud Torah, Bitul Tora, Talking in shul during davening or krias hatora… i don’t believe it’s only me who notices them. No one is saying that all of our problems are because of tznius. We don’t have niviim to tell us. We just have to do the best we can. and this thread is talking about one specific problem in klal yisroel.
Wellinformed. Of course it is the fault of the husbands and fathers every bit it the fault of the wives and daughters.
Isn’t it up to a man to uphold standards of halacha in his home? If his wife was not careful in the kitchen vis a vis kashrus and he knew it, would he be allowed to keep quiet? By not saying anything to his wife when it comes to tznius he gives his tacit approval for her mode of dress. Regarding his daughter, is their no obligation on a father to ensure his daughter dresses appropriately? Again, his silence is tacit approval of how she dresses. So, instead of blaming women for how hey dress, blame the husbands and fathers for allowing it.
Eich yaradnu p’laim? — I wonder. Till 3 years ago (approx.), it was almost unheard of, that frum women in the streets of Flatbush would be dressed in untsniusdic skirts. What happened??
I used to have a cleaner who came to me from her part time job in a Jewish Care Home. She came wearing a dark blouse with a proper collar, and a black skirt that well covered her knee. She also wore black 40 Denier tights. One day I asked her about the clothes she wore. She explained to me when she took her care home job she agreed (and signed) to wear the requested clothes. She said she respected this request. She also said if she worked for Moslems she would need to follow their requests.
We are working for the Ribbono Shel Oilam. Can we not show our respect to Him with the clothes we wear??
“What happened??”
When priorities become warped and distorted bad things happen.
wellinformed : even haman knew that lehios kol ish sorer bibaiso
the man is the gavra and can have a very powerful impact on what his wife and daughters wear. on the other hand if someone trusted his wife enough to marry her he should trust her judgement on how she allows her children to dress. many teens want to test the waters and if its within the guidelines of halacha it would be wise for the parents to allow it. if my girls want to wear a longer skirt with short socks that cover the ankle in the summer and most other girls are doing that also, it would be foolish to disallow it and be makpid.
The day pencil skirts were created, I laughed.
From my perch in Paris where I direct the Designers, I laughed.
A laugh of approval.
A laugh of deception.
A laugh of cruelty.
The evilest of evil laughs.
Why did I laugh?
Because I realized I’ve got them.
No, not the weak ones.
Not the ones falling between the cracks.
But the best of the best.
Only THEY can help me.
They’re the ones I can feed off of.
The weak have nothing to offer me.
The strong ones are the ones I need..
Yes, the best of the best.
The “Bais Yaakov Girls”
So she’ll do her daily mirror check.
Pearl earrings in place.
Button down.
Black tights.
Skirt covers knees.
A true Bais Yaakov Girl.
I watch from afar.
And I continue to laugh my evil laugh.
Just wait till she sits down.
I’ve tried in the past with the collarbone, but theres no fooling them. They’re too strong for me. with the elbows, there’s no way. that leaves me with only one solution- the knees. Covered when they look in the mirror, and so -they innocently think- covered the whole day.
True, there are those few moments here and there when she notices, so she’ll tug on her skirt a bit but I’m not worried because there will be plenty a moment when she won’t notice.
But fortunately, the Rabbis in front of the classroom do.
And so do the weak girls.
And so does G-d.
Even for those who do realize perhaps this skirt is too short, there’s always the black tights excuse to help me out.
Thankfully, they don’t seem to realize that black knees are still knees.
Oh I’ve educated them well.
Secretly, slipped the word “Duty-length” into their vocabulary.
That did it.
They’re more defensive about it than anyone else.
If they buy a skirt that by mistake is “duty length” I watch proudly as they run to the seamstress to chop it off to just below the knee.
The stronger amongst them will say a little longer below the knee, but they also don’t realize that that won’t help them very much when they’re sitting.
Then there are those who do scare me because they really are trying to do the right thing. So when they sit down, they’ll tug on their skirts and pull it over their knees. Or so they think. I just hope they’ll be sitting with one leg on top of the other and then they think their knees are covered but in actuality, only one is.
Thank G-d, they don’t take their leaders too seriously when they encourage them to go for four inches below the knee. I’ve succeeded in getting them into defensive mode when it comes to these things.
I’d worried way back that they would realize that their relationship with G-d is ideally that of a good marriage, and their leaders merely their husbands close friends coming to tell them what they’re husband REALLY likes.
Because if they would realize that, they would RUN to buy the “Duty length” skirts. Because when you truly love your husband, you run to prepare whatever it is he likes.
But then I would be out of business.
Thanks to my hard work, that’s not the case.
Seems their marriage is a bit shaky after all.
And to my credit, their “Husband” watches them sadly thinking is that all our marriage means to you? All you can give me are skirts that JUST cover the knees. Is our marriage merely an obligation to get over with in the easiest way possible? Is that how much you value me?
And I laugh.
With much appreciation to all those who’ve assisted my cause over the years,
And with gratitude to all those who’ve provided me with many good laughs,
The Satan
Editors note:
Yes, he has got us in more ways than not, and yes it’s so easy to think I’m a good BY girl so what are a few inches anyway?
But just recently, we were forced to see that when it comes to the aim of a gun or a rocket, a few inches really DO matter.
And we witnessed Hashem being SO careful with His inches, so many rockets JUST missing their aim.
Maybe we can show our “Husband” some well deserved love.
And be careful with our inches too.
ch123 that was really well said and done! where’s it from? I’d love to get a copy. Sadly enough it’s all too true.
if my girls want to wear a longer skirt with short socks that cover the ankle in the summer and most other girls are doing that also, it would be foolish to disallow it and be makpid.
Indeed, as the parent of three teens, this is my life right now — finding the right balance between letting them be themselves (and be teens) and when to hold fast on the boundaries. It isn’t always easy to find that balance.
The Wolf
sof davar-
I actually saw it in the CR- good forwards thread
you can copy paste it to MS word, though…
ya,but if you let your daughters do it because everyone else does, than someone else will let his daughter do something (wrong?) because everuyyone else is, then who will be left to do what’s right? it’s a merciless cycle…
“if my girls want to wear a longer skirt with short socks that cover the ankle in the summer and most other girls are doing that also, it would be foolish to disallow it and be makpid.”
Hate to break it to you. But all too often the legs become easily exposed with such a combination. Any slight move can expose the uncovered leg. It doesn’t matter what most other girls are doing. Even knee socks under a long skirt (long skirt i mean till floor/ankles)can be problematic.
“and when to hold fast on the boundaries.”
You should ALWAYS hold fast on the boundaries. At least on the boundaries, if not more than just borderline.
And I agree with the many above posters who said we husbands and fathers must require our wives and daughters to keeping the relevant halachas. The above posters are correct, we are equally culpable when our wives and daughters go out of line, and we must insure it does NOT happen.
And no one said we should keep tznius to the exclusion of any other halachas (i.e. L”H, etc.) We should maintain all halachas, including tznius.
For those who think that the men should be telling their wives and and daughters to dress Tznius what happens when the husband asks the wife and she fifes him uhn ie. doesn’t listen or gets all defensive. I hate to say this but clothing is a big deal for women and looking good becomes a part of their identity sometimes too much I don’t think most wives would be receptive to the husbands meddling in how they dress. I think the best chance a man has is to say something right away the first time he sees something out of line. If he waits a few months until it has become habitual to dress this way he has very little chance that he will be listened to. This is my opinion feel free to disagree.
WellInformedYid: As the authority in the house, the husband is obligated to enforce halacha amongst his wife and children.
WellInformedYid: As the authority in the house, the husband is obligated to enforce halacha amongst his wife and children.
If you have to enforce halacha in your wife and children, you’ve already lost the battle.
The Wolf
who said it’s a battle?
Wolf:
I agree. Its a bad sign.
who said it’s a battle?
It’s not. It’s an expression.
But if you have to enforce halacha observance in your household, then your household is in serious trouble.
The Wolf
Wolf:
“But if you have to enforce halacha observance in your household, then your household is in serious trouble.”
It depends. There are times that your wife and kids do something wrong due to lack of knowledge/education. However the basics shouldnt require enforcement. If your 10 year old hild is opening lights on Shabbos you have a problem. If your wife doesnt know “on her own” to shop for Tzniusdik clothing you have a very big problem.
What bothers me is why are “frum” clothing stores selling this shmutz to our women. Not that I believe in over policing things but let all the concert ban Rabbis be busy with the real problems. Let them talk to the store owners and ban their stores if they dont listen.
“What bothers me is why are “frum” clothing stores selling this shmutz to our women.”
Because women are buying them. If nobody would buy it, they wouldnt carry it. Ever see a “frum” store try to sell pants to women?
“Not that I believe in over policing things but let all the concert ban Rabbis be busy with the real problems.”
I know of at least one who DOES speak about to the members of his kehilla about establishments that he feels crosses a line. Not only clothing, food too.
apushusitayid, which Rov? I think he is a big Tzaddik.
If “frum” people would buy pork if it were in kosher groceries, that is no heter for a kosher grocer to carry it. Same with pritzus.
Max, your missing the point. nobody needs a frum store to sell pork, OR mini skirts. If someone was so inclined they have plenty of places to purchase both, outside the frum community. It is the pushing the line type clothing that this thread is discussing which of course can be purchased anywhere, BUT is also sold by frum shops. Why do they sell it? they have a yetzer hara, the same way people who push the boundaries of tznius do. Some people dont mind mucking around in grey areas, even when they are not all that grey and sometimes the yetzer hara somehow convinces you that it isnt all that grey, but rather pristine white.
Max well
Its really quite simple. The jewish stores carry the not so Tznius designs, the women buy it because hey its a Jewish store it must be ok…our wives, sisters and daughters see their friends wearing the stuff from these stores and they look good so they want too look good too. Theres a lot of clothing peer pressure amongst women. The stores dont want to stop selling these types of clothing because they make a lot of money its a huge business. If the stores sell it the women buy it. If other women buy out our women will buy it too. Its a vicious cycle that keeps repeating itself.
It depends. There are times that your wife and kids do something wrong due to lack of knowledge/education.
Education is not enforcement.
What bothers me is why are “frum” clothing stores selling this shmutz to our women.
Context, my friend, context. Clothing that can be categorized as “shmutz” in one context is perfectly legitimate in another.
The Wolf
You are comparing selling pork to selling clothing that you do not consider to be tzniusdig. One is not comparable to the other. Maybe stores should not sell bathing suits, either. If a frum store owner sells food, IMO it SHOULD only be kosher food, because of lifnei iveir if nothing more. But you cannot speak about clothing in the same breath. Supposing the frum person buying untzniusdig (in your opinion) clothing, plans to wear them exclusively in front of her husband and no one else? It certainly is not assered in the Torah to do so, whereas the eating of pork is a definite Torah no-no.
I think selling pritzus clothing is even worse than selling pork. By selling pork, the merchant is enabling one person to sin; by selling pritzus clothing to even one person, the merchant is potentially causing thousands of people to sin — the wearer and all the men who see her.
Wolf:
Context, my friend, context. Clothing that can be categorized as “shmutz” in one context is perfectly legitimate in another.
Correct. When you are catering to non Jewish people that is ok I guess but when selling to “frum” heimish/yeshivish Brooklynites you have a problem.
Rabbi Reisman has an excellent shiur on Tznius (the title of the shiur is actually wearing shaitels) which is apropo for both men and women.
To be honest isnt it hard to know all the halachos…. Is there a sefer that clearly spells it out? If so, shouldnt we make it famous….
Correct. When you are catering to non Jewish people that is ok I guess but when selling to “frum” heimish/yeshivish Brooklynites you have a problem.
No, you misunderstood what I meant.
The very same clothing that is inappropriate in one context for a bas yisroel to wear can be perfectly appropriate for the same bas yisroel to wear in a different context.
The Wolf
Wolf:
A person who keeps Hilchos Tznius keeps it no matter where she is and it doesnt change. There arent different rules for whats Tznius at work, shabbos, the mountains, vacation…
Wolf:
A person who keeps Hilchos Tznius keeps it no matter where she is and it doesnt change. There arent different rules for whats Tznius at work, shabbos, the mountains, vacation…
Again, you’re missing the point.
You (or was it another poster?) want to ban the sale of clothing in frum stores based on tznius criteria.
My point was that there are articles of clothing that one would call not tznius and yet it is perfectly acceptable (in specific contexts) for a bas yisroel to wear them. So issuing a ban on those stores for carrying those items is flawed.
(That’s aside from the fact that there’s nothing to stop a woman from buying something one size small so that it’s shorter and/or tighter on her. What are you going to do — ban the same of small size clothing?)
The Wolf
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