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Aishes Chayil, thank you so much for sharing. That beautiful story was so inspiring. I heard it recently, but didn’t hear all the details like this. I am truly inspired to increase our observance of this vital mitzvah. Thank you so much!
Just like we have hashgochos for food, we need them for tznius matters.
The Gedolei Yisroel shlita (zul zei zan gezunt un shtark ad meah v’esrim shonah) can come out with ideas how to implement. Some things that come to mind are, which clothing are appropriate – to insure that the leghnth is sufficient, isn’t tight, make takonos against stores that sell inappropriate clothing.
which clothing are appropriate – to insure that the leghnth is sufficient
Um, what’s the right length on one woman may be too short (or too long) on another woman
isn’t tight
The same… what’s tight on one person may not be tight on another. And how do you determine “tightness?”
The Wolf
EDITED
Wolf-i agree with you a thousand %. i don’t think takanos on stores will help. Everyone has to be honest with themselves and determine whther they are tzniyus or not; and unfortunately that is the minority.
Another thing that bothers me is some HUSBANDS allow their wives to dress innappropriate. Someone just told me that she went to buy a dress and she knew it was too short but her husband told her “it looks great on you, nu so don’t sit with it!” and she bought it! true she knew it was short but her husband allowed it! i am a little shocked, because i know her and she is frum. Anyway she told me that her teenaged daughter told her respectfuly that its too short so she said its good chinuch for her daughter so she will lenghten the skirt! i wanted to tell her shes a little mixed up – lengthen it for yourself, so YOU can dress tzniyus!
blinky – oh my! how sad! were getting to THAT stage already? where daughter’s have to tell their MOTHER’s that what they’re wearing isn’t tznius? The mother’s are sposed to be the EXAMPLES!
You know how they give the chassanim a ten-hour shmuz? So they are told “NEVER tell you wife you don’t like the food she made” and I am sure the young husbands would be scared silly to criticize the tznius of their new bride.
What needs to happen is that someone needs to tell them that if your wife puts on clothing that you find, shall we say, very (overly?) attractive, you should tell her, “Honey, you look so beautiful in that, I’d rather only I see you in it, can you wear it at home for me and not in public?”
Men, do you think you can do this?
“the young husbands would be scared silly to criticize the tznius of their new bride” hanab-you are correct, but i am talking about “older” couples, who have established a sense of trust already and are not scared to step on each others toes by telling them straight out that they are dressed innapropriately.
Well, it’s pretty hard to change the rules later. And once she’s wearing that stuff for a while, his eye gets accustomed to it also & he doesn’t see what’s wrong with it. Whereas when they first got married he noticed more??? What I’m saying (like Sarah Schenirer) is that you have to start earlier.
The little kids tznius groups may be a nice idea, I am not sure, because it seems to me that too many people are promoting their own agenda (I recently got something in the mail, & if you think I am thinking about covering my sheitel because of that inspiring story, sorry….)
And with teenagers, well, it’s very hard for parents to say things because we are all scared of upsetting our kids. I once called a woman to ask if I should talk to my daughter about an outfit I did not like (not ossur but not aidel) & she said, “don’t say a word, because the minute she leaves your house she will wear whatever she wants”. And I basically decided to concentrate on having a positive relationship with her & keep my mouth shut even when it’s very hard.
Furthermore (I may be wrong about this) I think most older women have a bit more dignity. It’s the youngsters who are so busy following the styles & getting their clothing to fit ‘just so’ who are much more likely to wear the bad stuff.
Speaking of ‘agendas’ (I was) please refer to page 70 of the June 10 BP weekly & tell me, if you can, who the person is who inserted the ad? I personally verified with one of the poskim listed that the parameters listed are not his psak, and I did not get into details of how his name came to be listed.
I am not disagreeing with everything written there. HOWEVER. If you want hosiery stores to cover the pictures on their packages, kindly approach them individually, offer to pay for the stickers & send your daughter to stick them on. You can also call the Jewish manufacturers & ask them to change the packaging, and the offensive name for the skin colored hosiery.
I would appreciate anyone who can go to any of the dayanim and rabbonim listed and find out if they really agree with what is written.
please refer to page 70 of the June 10 BP weekly
For those of us who don’t have it (or even know what periodical you are referring to when you say “BP weekly”) why don’t you tell us what it says?
The Wolf
At the request of the Wolf, I expose to non-Lakewood-residents (and those not on the mailing list) the information requested.
From BP Weekly – an advertising circular put out by BP Graphics
BS”D
We come to ask the manufacturers and retailers of stockings for women, not to sell stockings that weaken the holy Mitzva of “Tznius”. For example the stocking with the name, n*de [even in 60 denier] and other skin colored stockings e.g. honey and natural [even in 40 denier]. Also, stockings with a denier of less than 30 should not be worn by a bas yisroel, and therefore should not be available in a koshera store.
In addition, inappropriate pictures on the packaging should be covered.
In the Zchus of complying with the laws of our torah Hashem yisborach will bless with holy children, health and prosperity, and the final redemption of Klal Yisroel amen.
Signed on 28 Iyar by three of the poskim of Lakewood.
(Note no signature facsimiles, only names of signatories).
then it says:
DA’AS TORAH OF OUR GEDOLEI YISROEL (from tof shin mem heh)
Wearing stockings is obligatory. No stockings or transparent stockings is prohibited. One must wear stockings, which do not allow the skin to be visible.
Names listed for this are several from Eretz Yisroel and some now deceased, though not all are indicated as such.
Oh, yes, the person who placed the ad was courageous enough to sign his name.
“Ad placed by Yakov EDITED 845-EDITED” although there is no such directory listing. (See Mod’s note below.)
The thing is, normative LITVISHE psak, as I understand it, requires stockings that make it obvious that stockings are being worn. So ANY color other than skin color, in any denier would be permissible, as would a beige or skin color different from the wearer’s skin, or slightly opaque. But someone here seems to have an agenda to ask every store to adopt a certain viewpoint, and anyone whose Rov paskens differently should be compelled to shop in Cyprus, er, out of town or (gasp) on-line…. where no bas yisroel should be, of course.
EDITED. Name and Phone number redacted. (The phone number IS listed in the name of the person shown.)
Not everbody holds that a lady has to wear stockings. For sure, wearing see-through stokings does not accomplish anything. See-through covering is not considered a proper covering halachicaly, and it does not look more tsniusdik either. It is just a silly chumra — to wear this type of stockings.
I would like to point out to anyone who tells store owners of “kosher” stores to change their labeling and packaging, that not everyone who shops in those stores is frum or even Jewish. I have shopped in Boro Park many times where I saw clearly non-Jewish people in the store. The stores have to appeal to a broader group than just the Lakewood people.
A. You can appeal to non-Jewish and non-frum customers without resorting to pritzus.
B. Even if you cannot, you still have no license to advertise pritzus. Especially regarding non-frum customers — who ARE obligated in tznius halachas.
mdd, which Chareidi authority allows no stockings?
Kasha,
My sister lives in Lakewood. Her posek allows nude stockings and no stockings when the minhag hamakom is to allow bare feet.
SJS, that is too vague. I asked which Chareidi authority, not whether someone claims such an authority exists. I see earlier on the thread one or more specific authorities listed forbidding it; I don’t know of anyone specifically permitting, hence asking for specifics.
Is “chareidi” the only halachic opinion? As I’ve mentioned previously, my OU rabbi says that the lower leg does not have to be covered.
No, but many folks will not accept an MO opinion.
Even “my OU rabbi” is vague. No one has offered a specific source.
Feel free to not accept a MO opinion, but that does not mean it is halachically incorrect. Do you ask your rav for his sources every time you ask a shaila? I don’t.
Still no one has specified any authority that allegedly permits it, even if it is a specific local Rov. (I know that the same Rabbi Henkin from Israel that allows men and women to dance simultaneously in the same room to allow it, so hence one must always judge who is allowing something by his stature, and someone who allows men and women to dance together like that is not a reliable authority in most peoples books.)
Kasha – here’s an idea: Ask your rav if he knows why some authorities permit women to not cover their lower legs, even if he personally does not hold by that opinion. I’m sure your rav is a talmid chacham who is familiar with many seforim, even those with which he disagrees.
I’ve asked, and the reply was in the negative – even regarding other authorities/sources. Are you still reluctant to share who permitted this for you?
Kasha: Rabbi Binyomin Forst.
gavra, thank you. Do you per chance happen to know if or where he mentions this in any of his books or elsewhere?
Kasha, my sister is not MO. I don’t know who she asked regarding this shailah and I don’t want to give out her rav, as I feel its a breech of her privacy. You don’t have to accept it, it doesn’t really matter to me.
I won’t bother with MO sources.
Kasha: Dunno. Heard it from him directly. Give him a call (He does take calls).
Were bare feet allowed in the midbar?
The only answer I’ve heard was that yes but people wore long robes. But the same communities that don’t allow bare feet, don’t allow long skirts for women.
Kasha, in addition to Rabbi Forst, it is Rabbi Dovid Cohen from Brooklyn ( unless you are from Williamsburg, where they have such a minhag).
Were bare feet allowed in the midbar?
The only answer I’ve heard was that yes but people wore long robes. But the same communities that don’t allow bare feet, don’t allow long skirts for women.
Was polygamy allowed in the midbar?
We can’t make assumptions on how to follow halacha in our daily lives based on how our ancestors followed halacha.
Therefore I keep on reiterating the importance on minhugim and daas Yehadus.
Clearheaded, there was a takana issued with regard to marriage. Did I miss the stockings takana? And, many, many Orthodox women don’t wear socks OR stockings. I don’t think Daas Yehudis would encorporate only a portion. Minhag hamakom is much more likely. I don’t (and more than likely would never) live in a place that I couldn’t wear sandals.
I’m just thinking out loud. Why do most men wear socks and are not bothered by the heat. In places where it’s very hot the men too don’t wear socks?
“I’m just thinking out loud. Why do most men wear socks and are not bothered by the heat. In places where it’s very hot the men too don’t wear socks? “
Says who — Says who? Have you actually interviewed most men, to have reached that conclusion? My husband and sons are VERY bothered by the heat. They wear socks only if they are wearing shoes. If they wear sandals, which are only appropriate in some places, they do NOT wear socks. They would not walk into shul that way, but they will go out for a day in the park, the zoo, shopping, etc. in sandals.
IN E”Y many non-chareidi frum people wear sandals. Socks cause feet to sweat and promote the growth of fungal infections, not to mention foot odor.
says who, many wear sandals.
I go on the train every day so I know it as a fact. I said most.
SJS, The reason I brought up poligamy was not about how HOW the the application of halachos to our daily lives changed, but the fact that they DID change (we can blog here all day and night if we were to analyze the origin of each minhug of each community in klal Yisroel) and therefore how our ancestors in the midbar applied the halachos to their daily life is different than we do today, 500 years ago and even 100 years ago. We need to follow daas Yehadus and minhugim that is practiced today.
Minhugim for me is not the same as for others in my community (not talking about family and Chassidus, but rather neighbors and freinds) and yet the daas Yehadus is the same for us and we are therefore obligated to follow that.
Daas Yehadus is disdinct for different communities and some don’t accept others opinion of daas Yehadus as being valid or accepted.
I’m not saying what my feelings are regarding socks or stockings I’m just saying talking about the facts.
“I go on the train every day so I know it as a fact. I said most.”
Maybe that is because they are on their way to work…?
Halacha does not change – the societal (and rabbinical) interpretation of certain aspects of halacha, do have a tendency to undergo metamorphoses of sorts, givent he time, the place, and the basic community standards. There are certain lines that can never be crossed, but the wearing or lack thereof of legwear is subject to interpretation.
But an important point is getting lost in this discussion. Every community has their standards, which is why international tznius organizations (or even national) are going to confuse or upset people who adhere to the standards of their own community, but are being pushed to accept the agenda of another community. We need to respect one another, yes. Not necessarily to accept the standards of others as our own.
We were once on the way to the Catskills the week of the yahrzeit of the Satmar Rebbe zt”l. We are not at all chassidish but I though it would be a big zchus to go daven there. Then I realized I was wearing 3/4 sleeves. This is totally acceptable in my community but I felt it was wrong to go in to a community where it is not acceptable (in fact I believe it may be ossur to go somewhere if your dress does not adhere to minhag hamokom).
I agree with hanab. Though I wear sleeves to my elbow, I would never walk into a place where that was offensive, dressed in that way. But neither would I want to bee looked down at by chareidim who come into MY neighborhood and see me dressed in a tzniusdig way that is different from their own standard.
I try to follow the customs of the land to a certain extent. But if I go to visit my mother in Monsey, its still ok in her crowd to wear sandals. So I do. If I have to go to the grocery store, I will.
If I am going to New Square and I know ahead of time, I will try to dress more closely aligned to their dress. I don’t totally alter my dress though.
Kasha said “mdd, which Chareidi authority allows no stockings?”
The Mishna Berura very clearly says a woman does not have to cover her leg from the knee down. I will post the exact Maareh Maakom later as I am at work and cant look it up at the moment.
Rav Moshe’s (EH IV 100.6) defense of the Mishna Berurah (75:2)
(he says that the Mishna Berura is correct) – that below the knee is not ervah; he then says that stockings are required only because of tznius — because if it was actual ervah than transparent stockings would still be prohibited. However neither Rav Moshe nor the Mishna Berura state that there can not be hirhur concerning the lower leg. In fact both state that if there is than it must be covered.
Other poskim assert that there is hirhur and thus the hetair is at most valid in a ideal world which is surely not the present situation.
Kasha said “he then says that stockings are required only because of tznius — because if it was actual ervah than transparent stockings would still be prohibited.”
“Tznius” meaning what? If it is not an Ervah, what is considered “not Tznius” in one time and place is not neccesarily to be considered so in any other.
Kasha said”However neither Rav Moshe nor the Mishna Berura state that there can not be hirhur concerning the lower leg.”
There can be Hirur on any part of a woman’s body, The areas that are an Ervah she has to cover. (She also has to make sure not cheapen herself even while covering all Ervah. However this is subjective and what is considered “cheapening” will vary greatly from Era to Era and place to place.)
by the way- Inside Outside by Gila Manolson is an excellent book for men and women. it was extremely well written, i couldnt put it down! i highly recommend to all. A few posts ago mentioned about the rebbetzins not covering her knees and being a bad role model, while of course everything we do is 100% our achrayus, and we should not be pointing fingers, i beileve in one exception. i think that bais yaakov teachers who do not cover their knees not only send messages of hypocrisy, but what else are they supposed to ecpect from their students? it irritates me so much to see these really special and inspring women who send conflicting messages to their poor students! we are all thirsty for role models in this area
“And how do you determine “tightness?””
Thats why we have the gedolim to answer these questions.
It should be quite simple. Once we could have said, “Imagine if you are going to the Godol Hador for a beracha. Would you be embarrassed to be wearing that?”
Unfortunately, today the eye is so accustomed to seeing inappropriate clothing that this sensitivity may have been lost.
However, one can always ask a respected rebbetzin to judge if an article of clothing is appropriate, and many people do this.
hanab – You are very right.
mazal77 – Where can I get a copy of Daughters of Dignity?
Another terrible breach in tznius is this new fad (I don’t even know how new, its been a big problem for a while) to wear a tight fitting white shell under the shirt. Theres no heter for the shell (like shirt) to be tight and “hugging” the arm and the outlines of the arm (above the elbow) clearly visible. It is no less assur than wearing a tight fitting skirt.
“Another terrible breach in tznius is this new fad (I don’t even know how new, its been a big problem for a while) to wear a tight fitting white shell under the skirt.” huh? you wrote under the skirt. you mean the shirt-right?
fixed
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