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Moderator and so right, I’m glad you like my idea.
I also want to point out that essays should not turn into a competition of who wrote the best essay. This is not about talent, rather it’s should be an opportunity for students to explore the topic of and their feelings about tznius.
I would like to hear some opinions whether its right for girls age preteen and under to have freindly chats with familiar delivery men and policemen. The boys and girls in my neighborhood (my kids included) talk to these people. Is this called being freindly or is it not tzniusdig for girls to talk to these people? I have stressed to my kids that it’s dangerous to talk to any strangers. Are freindly chats with policemen and familiar delivery people a problem when they are talking within my earshot?
clearheaded, in my opinion you should start teaching them tznius from a young age, al pi chinuch. So I think its best to avoid that situation, so when they get a bit older, they can understand that it is wrong.
qa, my question was not about when to teach kids chinuch. My question was whether chatting with police officers and delivery men when all the neighborhood kids are, is considered for girls a breach of tznius. The truth is that it is not tzniusdig for girls (and not the right thing for boys either) to shmuess with strange men.
I guess I’ll ask the right question now. How do I get my children to do the right thing which is the opposite what the other kids are doing? How can I get them to stay out of these conversations?
The first step is to recognize there’s a problem (which you just did.) And realize just cause others in the neighborhood aren’t acting right, doesn’t make it any less worse. I think the best approach is education; by reminding them what’s right and what’s wrong.
Thanks qa, but it’s not so simple. Just reminders to do what’s right can only help with kids that are naturally very obedient. Some kids need stronger and more effective measures.
Clearheaded: I guess you’re still asking whether it’s ok for girls to have these chats; if you were sure it’s wrong, you’d use the stronger measures.
tomim tihye, that’s untrue. There’s nothing that’s negates the understanding that these chats are wrong when asking if anyone can suggest effective measures one can take. If you have an interesting idea post it. If an interesting idea means strong worded speaches to my kids, keep that to yourself. That I can do without anybody telling me.
i didn’t read the entire thread, though i assume this was already mentioned – The best and most effective teacher in everything is BY EXAMPLE! and so it is with tznius- IN ALL AREAS of Tznius. (Tznius isn’t just a dress code it’s a midda, and comes into every part of life.) As to how to instill it in the next generation – i definitely feel that a greater sense of pride of who we are is needed… for those who went to Bnos Melachim “the Queen doesn’t care what others wear” but then also, chinuch lenaar al pi darko you have to know your kid and what works for them
Clearheaded: So, can you suggest how I can keep my kids from crossing at a red light? IOW, when the conviction is strong, the message comes across.
In the words of a German philosopher:
“He who knows WHY knows almost any HOW.”
tomim, We’ll see. Hopefully you’re right. I have explained to my kids that it’s dangerous and not tznius to talk to men other than relatives and the police are only there for emergencies. Hopefully, it will work.
You have to understand something. When a child goes into the street, a mother can hit the child (yes, I do believe in hitting in such instances), and take the child into the house and explain this is a punishment for running into the street.
But a older child talking to strangers when everybody around them is doing it, is a different situation. You cannot punish the child in front of everybody and I don’t think taking away priviliges is the right thing to do as a child can become obstinate and it’s not wise to make a bigger issue about this.
Therefore I asked if people have any ideas on how to make kids comply out of their own free will-not because of a power struggle which I don’t think is wise in this situaton. But it doesn’t seem that people have any creative ideas here.
Hopefully, with Hashem’s help, my children will be smart enough to understand that it’s important not to chat with strangers as we have discussed and will act differently than all the neighborhood kids the next time this situation comes up.
And I’m still thinking of ideas how to help my kids make the right choices out of their own free will – not because they were coerced to do so.
Discipline IS important, but you cannot fight all the time. you have to be wise and know that different situations call for different implementations.
Actually, I like that sentence – different situations call for different implementations.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that the most important ingredient in chinuch is siyatta dishmaya. First and foremost.
I think that is the wrong message to use tznius as a reason (and what tznius issue is there with the young male children talking to another male). It is not a matter of tznius. It is a matter of safety. And btw, relatives can also be problematic. There are many predators in the world, and some are family members R”L. BTW, female strangers can also be dangerous. How many children have been led away by a friendly-looking woman. Take the tznius issue out of the problem for the moment, and call a spade a spade. It is a concern that children should not talk to ANY people whom they do not know well, when their mommy or daddy or safe adult is not with them. Sometimes, they should not be talking even to people they HAVE met before, learn with, or are related to, without supervision, even if they look frum. We live in a terrible world right now, and this has not so much to do with tznius, as it has to do with protecting our kids from sick people.
oomis1105, you’re right. But this subject initially started out about if it’s tznius when girls have a freindly chat with policemen and deliverymen within earshot of me,the parent.
WORTH READING!
I heard a beautiful story in a shiur given by Rabbi Avrohom M. Alter that is available online. He said the story in the name of Rebbetzin Kanievsky.
In March, someone packed a car with 100 kilos of explosives and parked it at the CineMall in Haifa . It was parked hear a supporting pillar. Had it exploded, not only would it have destroyed that pillar, but other cars in the lot would have caught fire causing the gas tanks to explode. In that very popular mall, the consequences would have been too horrendously tragic to contemplate.
The explosion did not happen. A passerby spotted some smoke coming from the car and alerted the police whose sappers were able to come and defuse the explosives.
Even Ehud Olmert recognized this was a miracle, although he attributed it to the alertness of civilians.
Here’s what really happened:
Several weeks before this event, a girl in Haifa who had been sick and went for tests was told she had stomach cancer. The tumor was so big, and had metastasized, and there was nothing the doctors could do. They told her to go home for her final weeks.
This non-religious girl and her non-religious parents pleaded with the doctors to try. They begged them at least to make an effort. The doctors finally agreed and told her to come back the next day for surgery.
She was assigned a young, inexperienced surgeon. They felt it would be good practice for him, and since there was nothing that could help her, it didn’t really matter.
The night before the surgery, this non-religious girl pleaded with Hashem. She said to him, “HaKadosh Boruch Hu, when we had the Bais HaMikdosh people could bring you korbanos to plead their case. Now we have no Kohanim, we have no Bais HaMikdosh. But I still want to bring you a korban.”
She went to her closet and took out all her immodest clothing and took it out to the yard and burned them. As her clothes went up in flames, she cried out, “This is my korban.”
The next day this girl went to the hospital in her nightgown. She had burned her entire wardrobe and this was all she had left. She had the surgery. The giant tumor had not metastasized, as was previously believed. It was totally contained. It was easily removed. And it was benign.
She told all her non-religious friends about the miracle. When the girl had recovered enough to get out of bed, her friends brought over all their immodest clothing and made another fire.
Left with nothing to wear, the girls needed new clothes. When that bomb was supposed to explode at the CineMall, these girls were inside buying themselves new, modest clothing.
A miracle that a civilian saw some smoke? Or a reward for tznius?
Its frightening whats happening with tznius these days. Women arent ashamed to wear anything in public anymore. I’ve seen (although I wish I didnt) women wearing tight outfits in public wearing no stockings and so on. And on Shabbos there are all these women out and about. Whatever happened to the halacha in the rambam where he said that women should only be allowed out a few times a month when they need to (like to get something from the market)?
We need our schools to teach proper tznius again like it was taught in the heim.
Mosherose, if you want women to stay home, how do you propose that happens? Does that mean Kollel has to shut down?
People earn money at home too. They can do things at home and then go to market to trade or sell there goods. or else the men can work.
SJS, to limit women to leaving the house only a few times per month would require many changes beyond keeping women from working. Women would also no longer be able to transport children to or from school, tutoring, extracurrcicular activities, medical appointments, or visits to friends’ homes, or to take their children outside to play. They also would not be able to shop for groceries, clothing, or household items. Who would take care of all of these responsibilities and errands?
Bus service & grocery delivery is not available everywhere. Even where it is available, it would reduce the need for transportation to & from school & the grocery store, but not the other errands. So men would have to take care of these errands and tasks as well.
SJS: Are the majority of working women kollel wives? I would guess that kollel families would be the minority of all those affected.
I think Rip van winkle just woke up
it’s pretty much impossible for a women to stay indoors and only go out a few times a month. the world has changed drastically and we buy everything instead of e/th being “home made” We live a very different life than even 70 yrs ago. HOWEVER, there is A WAY to go out in a tzniusdike fashion, going about your business without attracting attention to yourself. (both in dress, speech, actions…)
Kollel families may be the minority of general working people, but this is Yeshiva World right? Isn’t it the ideal in most parts of the community to support your husband working?
And what I said was tongue in cheek – its virtually impossible to make women stay home nowadays, and not just for the obvious things Anon brought about. Culture and lifestyle have totally changed, that’s why that statement from the Rambam doesn’t quite apply today.
Sofdavar, I agree with you.
mazal77 thanks for the chuckle.
<Its frightening whats happening…..wearing no stockings and so on.>
Please provide original source for requirement of women to wear stockings. (chumrah is not a requirement)
Nicely presented.
Oh, right, I forgot this is Yeshiva World. Some people’s anti-Kollel agenda makes it hard to tell…
What sofdavar said is obviously obvious.
Trying my best – no one outright assured denim however tznius is NOT all about clear cut halacha. There are a lot of gray areas, where the natural sensitivities of bnos yisroel should kick in. As i once heard – “tznius is a sensitive mitzva given to sensitive women” meaning tznius requires A LOT of sensitivities and is not so clear cut- women who are naturally blessed with these inner sensitivities should use them! (halevai we saw these natural sensitivities being practiced by all.
And see Rav Falk regarding denim “chukas Hagoyim”… not exactly what a queen would wear. Aren’t bnos yisroel – Bnos Melachim?
I do agree with the sentiment, that women should look inward and realize what is not appropriate even though it may follow the letter of the law.
Denim (What is Denim?) may or may not be one of those things.
EDITED
It would take a lot to convince me that denim is not appropriate.
GAW is that serious question? Denim material is what jeans and jean skirts are made of. They are hardy, very washable, very forgiving and comfortable.
EDITED
SJS: By me they are called “Jeans skirts”, and they are blue (just like jeans).
I think jeans skirts (Denim) are frowned upon because jeans are frowned upon for men, not because of inherent issues with them.
GAW, yes but its not something that’s forbidden for any real reason. That’s not enough to make me stop wearing denim.
Mod, Sofdavar made a point that royalt doesn’t wear denim but is wrong. I pointed out that EDITED (a member of a modern royal family) did wear denim. Is there a reason this isn’t allowed to be posted?
SJS:
That’s not real royalty. All REAL royalty (i.e. respectful) would never wear jeans, which makes it Assur.
Just like all real Scotsmen eat Haggis.
Is the _Sefer_ off limits? If so, please tell me in one of my posts.
EDITED: We don’t appreciate criticizing the Sefer or the talmid chochom who authored it. (Not to indicate that you have, just exercising caution.) If you wish to quote another named talmid chochom who disagrees with the first on an issue, feel free to do so.
no one said denim is clearly assur, it’s one of those gray areas that needs a great deal of inner sensitivity like so many other aspects of tznius which you can not say are 100% assur.
and if you flip through Rav Falk’s sefer, you’ll see practically every paragraph has sources. He doesn’t make anything up, and is a great posek in his own right.
Nothing to do with denim but can someone clarify the halachos of stockings? I’ve heard some poskim say you can go with sheer (even though I totally don’t understand what the point in wearing them at all is) and then I heard a posek say that you can’t wear skin color no matter how thick because it’s maris ayin.
My (OU) rabbi said that women are not obligated to wear stockings.
WADR, I think its fair not to consider the reliability of unnamed rabbis. Its too easy to make unsubstantiated claims. Also, for all anyone knows it might be someone like the R. Yehuda Henkin from Israel who published a teshuva that’s okay with mixed dancing “since the men don’t look anyways.”
Kasha,
You misrepresent Rav Henkin. He said it is permitted for women to dance in the same ROOM with men but not WITH men. Bnei Banim, vol. 1 no. 37 part 9.
Rav Henkin also has brought many sources that disagree with some of the strict opinions brought down by Rav Falk. I’d post more but it is getting close to Shabat.
Right, dancing in the same room WITH NO MECHITZA; he said men and women can dance since the men don’t look. That is just an example of some of his very wacky writings. He also questioned the “permissibility” (his term, I’m not kidding) of calling one of the Gedolei ???? ???? ???? with the suffix zatzal.
These things should tell you that this man is not someone that you want to learn from. You think anybody cares? We look at it the same way as if these rabbis would say the same things about Rava and Abaye. Or Rav Yonason Eyebushitz. When someone says something absurd like that it says something about the one who said it – and it says nothing about the Godol. Really, truly – what these people say doesnt get anyone up in arms. There are plenty of crazy hashkofos out there. (That having been said, to the extent that Kovod HaTorah is violated, we should be upset.)
GAW, appreciated the No True Scotsman allusion.
Kasha,
Rav Henkin is one of the most respected rabbis in the modern orthodox community in Israel. Like most rabbis, he has some leniencies and some stringencies. And he generally follows his grandfather z’tz’l when he has a specific mesorah from him.
And everyone would benefit from reading his essay, “Contemporary Tseni’ut” in the Fall 2003 issue of *Tradition* in which he brings many sources that commenters here have ignored. You can buy it at the traditiononline web site.
Regarding denim, it is considered casual wear in the United States but in other parts of the world it has much greater status. I remember being surprised to see a Levi’s boutique next to an Armani and a Gucci boutique in Rome! And the prices for Levi’s jeans resembled that of Armani pants!!!
Regarding denim and chukat hagoyim, the ONLY communitie in America where long denim skirts are common are Orthodox Jewish ones. They may not be acceptable in some community, but they are certainly acceptable in Riverdale, Teaneck, the Upper West Side, and Kew Gardens Hills.
trying my best,
You are wrong about “following the majority of poskim”. Your statement is contradicted by the explicit mishnah “Aseh l’cha rav”. We each should have a rav and follow that rav’s derech when that rav is stringent and when that rav is lenient. And any decent rav will pasken knowing both the individual and the community in which that person lives.
Not having a rav but trying to sort out for ourselves what the “majority of poskim” say can create a situation where our yetzer hara will enable us to pick and choose who are the poskim we include for that majority in order to justify our actions, whether stringent or lenient. That isn’t the Torah way.
Like his “leniency” on mixed dancing, and his denigration of Gedolei Yisroel, R. Henkin should be dismissed the same way we would someone saying such things about Rava and Abaye. He is far from his saintly grandfather; and aside from the fact that he misrepresents his grandfathers positions, at the very basic level his grandfather was very anti-zionist while this guy IS a zionist.
I learned that regarding denim it’s minhag hamakom.
“Mixed dancing” generally refers to men and women dancing together, not to men and women dancing separately in the same room. I’m unaware of Rabbi Henkin permitting the former; if you have a source, please provide!
No one would ever say it’s ok for women to dance in the same room as men cuz men aren’t looking anyway!!! what a lie! I’ve been to many FRUM even “YESHIVISH” weddings where “just like” 2/more men “had to be” in the women’s section and they were doing nothing else but STARING at the girls dancing!!!
I heard a beautiful story in a shiur given by HaRav Avrohom M. Alter shlita, that is available online. He said the story in the name of Rebbetzin Kanievsky.
In March, someone packed a car with 100 kilos of explosives and parked it at the CineMall in Haifa . It was parked hear a supporting pillar. Had it exploded, not only would it have destroyed that pillar, but other cars in the lot would have caught fire causing the gas tanks to explode. In that very popular mall, the consequences would have been too horrendously tragic to contemplate.
The explosion did not happen. A passerby spotted some smoke coming from the car and alerted the police whose sappers were able to come and defuse the explosives.
Even Ehud Olmert recognized this was a miracle, although he attributed it to the alertness of civilians.
Here’s what really happened:
Several weeks before this event, a girl in Haifa who had been sick and went for tests was told she had stomach cancer. The tumor was so big, and had metastasized, and there was nothing the doctors could do. They told her to go home for her final weeks.
This non-religious girl and her non-religious parents pleaded with the doctors to try. They begged them at least to make an effort. The doctors finally agreed and told her to come back the next day for surgery.
She was assigned a young, inexperienced surgeon. They felt it would be good practice for him, and since there was nothing that could help her, it didn’t really matter.
The night before the surgery, this non-religious girl pleaded with Hashem. She said to him, “HaKadosh Boruch Hu, when we had the Bais HaMikdosh people could bring you korbanos to plead their case. Now we have no Kohanim, we have no Bais HaMikdosh. But I still want to bring you a korban.”
She went to her closet and took out all her immodest clothing and took it out to the yard and burned them. As the her clothes went up in flames, she cried out, “This is my korban.”
The next day this girl went to the hospital in her nightgown. She had burned her entire wardrobe and this was all she had left. She had the surgery. The giant tumor had not metastisized, as was previously believed. It was totally contained. It was easily removed. And it was benign.
She told all her non-religious friends about the miracle. When the girl had recovered enough to get out of bed, her friends brought over all their immodest clothing and made another fire.
Left with nothing to wear, the girls needed new clothes. When that bomb was supposed to explode at the CineMall, these girls were inside buying themselves new, modest clothing.
A miracle that a civilian saw some smoke? Or a reward for tznius?
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