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Quote from the book
“Dear Jewish Daughters,
We are living in times of increased immodesty. Impure non-jewish influences are threatening the sanctity of Jewish women and girls and of our entire people.
The Jewish principle of modesty, the fundamental cornerstone of our nations’s existence is under attack and in danger. Indeed Hashem’s presence and protection are dependent upon the observence of these laws. When Modesty is weakened, the holy Shechinah disappears from Israel, asi it is written, Va Lo yirah Bach Ervat Davar – Va shav Ma acrach” In the Event that Hashem will see immodesty amongst you, He will turn away from you”
It is of supreme importence for us to be particularly meticulous regarding the obeservance of this mitzvah. One must vigoroulsy pay attention to its details, lest one violate the fundamental laws for which a woman – in but a brief moment- may cause others to commit thousands of sins, thereby destroying many generations.
“the holy books are clear, any time we “slip” we can do teshuva, and the great and compassionate one will forgive us, but if there is any halacha that we (man or woman) completely ignore, while knowing it’s wrong. that person has the title of a rasha.
Again if you have an urge for a cheeseburger, and control it on most days, but slip here and there, you can do teshuva.
That’s better than taking something from the torah and just throwing it out the window.”
so what you are saying is that the “holy books” say that one who is struggling with something and has not yet gotten to the level of keeping it properly, is a rasha. im sorry, but i just dont buy that. ive never heard such a concept.
would you mind please listing some of the “holy books” which state such a thing, and how it is stated.
“Experience has proven that it is impossible to avoid erring in these matters without routine study of the details of the laws of modesty in dress and behavior. This is especially true in our generation in which the impurity of the street is eating away at the fabric of modesty. As such study of these laws is even more imperative than ever.
Accordingly, we address our Daughters of Israel and ask that each one of you establish for yourselves a set time for learning the laws of modesty ind dress AND behavior. Since it is natural that our desires and inclinations lead us astray, it is only through the study of these laws that we will have the necessary strenth to withstand the challenge and properly observe the mitzvah in accordance with Halacha. It is important that these laws be taught to school girls.
All women who observe these laws with the proper care and consideration should be blessed with strong and healthy children, live, food, and an abundane of blessings, and they will merit other benefits. May Hashem protect their homes from all evil and may they be successful in body and soul- in this world and in the World to Come. It is the merit of these righteous women which will bring the future Redemption. (Rus Rabbah 3:4)
oomis1105,
Do I feel that not keeping kosher and not being properly tsniusdic is the same? It does not depend on how one feels about it — it depends on how Halocha views it. Eating treif meat is a lav, but so is not being properly covered ( lifnei iver). As far as “how I feel goes” — I get very upset when I see frum women walking around not properly dressed.
Telling men to control it is like telling a person whom a doctor hits on the knee with a small medical hammer to make sure his leg does not kick.
anonymrs, look in seifer “Chofets Chaim” (chapter 4).
i appreciate you telling me where to look, but what i asked for was the quote. i am not a very learned woman and do not want to assume that i will understand what is written correctly. again, can you please tell us how this statement was worded?
anonymrs
“so what you are saying is that the “holy books” say that one who is struggling with something and has not yet gotten to the level of keeping it properly, is a rasha. im sorry, but i just dont buy that. ive never heard such a concept.
would you mind please listing some of the “holy books” which state such a thing, and how it is stated. “
It’s stated exactly as i put it, unless the person is baal teshuva, but if you grow up frum, this is the religion, we have to take the whole thing as is.
trust me there are a few things i can do without, can i throw those mitzvas away?
it’s worded
“if a person knows something is an avera, and habitually does it anyway, s/he is a rasha”
ps unless they’re a baal teshuva
is this the opinion of many people or individuals? (i dont mean individuals like you or i, i mean individuals as in not the majority opinion)
From the Book “Daughters of Dignity”
Spritual Rewards for Tzinus
A) Kedusha rests upon a Tznua – one who behaves modestly merits to be close to Hashem
B) The Shechinah Dwells in the home of a Tznuah
Medrash Tanchuma teaches a awesome analogy of When a woman is modest in her home, she is compared to a Mizbach. Just as a Mizba’ach generates Kedusha, for it atones for the sins of Klal Yisroel, so too a tznua generates Kedusha in her home and serves as an atonement for her household
C) Through Tznius, we not only generate holiness onto to ourselves and our homes, but we cause kedusha to permeate the whole world.
Rabbi Shmuel Dishon Shilta, relates a story, when he was in Russia a non jewish lady came to him and 2 other rabbonim and begged that she wanted to become a jew. As required by Halachah, they tried to dissuade her by telling her to keep the 7 mitzvos of Noah & still get Olam Haba. She answered that she read some where, that when a Ben Noach performs a mitzvah, he received reward but does not bring holiness into the world. She wanted to become a Bas Yisroel so she could bring kedusha into the world through her mitzvos.
Fortunate are wer to be born Jewish Women and have the constant opportunity throught overcoming challenges in tzinus to bring kedusha into the world.
anonymrs
the statement i quoted is in regard to every thing the torah tells us not to do.
tzinus is one of them it’s not a minhag, and yes the yeter horah will do everything to fight woman with it, because it’s really the only mitzvah you have that’s 24/7
but you didnt answer my question. i wanted to know if this is the opinion of the majority of poskim- that one who does not keep the mitzvos the way they should be kept is a rasha. it just doesnt make sense to me that one who is struggling with something should be given such a terrible title. when you hear rasha you think haman, hitler, etc. i cant understand how a majority of our poskim could equate one who does not keep the mitzvos to the t with these people.
it’s worded
“if a person knows something is an avera, and habitually does it anyway, s/he is a rasha”
ps unless they’re a baal teshuva
Does it mean if BT knows this is an avera s/he can keep doing it any way because s/he BT? Really? And for how long? One year? Ten years? Till 120?
IMHO, if person (Jewish or not, observant or not) knows s/he is doing something wrong and keep doing – it is something wrong with person.
oomiss1105, wearing non-tsniusdic clothing, besides being a lav, causes yetser horah for gilui arayos R’L — so, in a way, it is even worse than eating meat of a non-kosher animal.
chesedname, a baal tshuva is obligated to keep all the mitsvos just as any other Jew. The only p’tur is being a tinok shenishba (someone who was indoctrinared with a non-Torah worldview since childhood and never had a chance to know better). Someone, who realizes that Torah is emes, has no p’tur.
anonymrs, it is the opinion of the majority of Poskim.
This is not just a problem in Eretz Yisroel it is a bigger problem here in Galus. Just walk the streets of Brooklyn or the Five towns. Women who consider themselves frum and would not walk out of their homes without their $2000 sheitels would walk out with their knees and more showing.
mdd
rav moshe z”tl disagrees
he says once they accept something upon themselves, they have to keep it.
but once they decide to do teshuva and become frum, they don’t have to do everything at one time.
a ger on the other hand it’s all or nothing
notrichenough
this should answer your question as well.
ps where were you when we discussed masser?
This is not just a problem in Eretz Yisroel it is a bigger problem here in Galus. Just walk the streets of Brooklyn or the Five towns. Women who consider themselves frum and would not walk out of their homes without their $2000 sheitels would walk out with their knees and more showing.
If this is a reality, why husbands and fathers keep quite? Why they let their wife / daughter to be dressed this way?
ps where were you when we discussed masser?
1. would you be so kind and translate for me in English, I’m not good with Hebrew – I’m BT.
2. I keep two jobs and not every day open my computer, sorry.
but once they decide to do teshuva and become frum, they don’t have to do everything at one time.
a ger on the other hand it’s all or nothing
BT can’t do everything at one time, the same like a ger do not learn everything at one time. Not Jew spent a few years to learn and then make a convergin – became a Jew. This is the reason, why it’s all or nothing (Jew or not Jew)
BT IS a Jew, who is getting back to her/his roots. And whatever BT learn, s/he must to keep from the time s/he learn. I may be very wrong, but I think most of BT started to learn from everyday Halachah ( which for women include the law of tznius) and then got farther.
I have a question I haven’t seen broached yet. how come there are stores owned by frum people in frum neighborhood’s frequented pretty much only by frum people that have manequins in the window with skirts above the knee. I know of one store in particular that for more than a year has had at least one manequin with a too short skirt almost straight through the year. Why is there no geshrai? Where are the rabbonim? It should be assur to shop in such a store until they fix their windows. If this is what the store is displaying and noone says a word then there is tacit agreement that these styles are permissible.
ketzies-you’re totally right. However, many ppl don’t only shop in the frum stores. There are goyish stores that sell skirts now too. All you have to do is go to Ross, Marshalls… (those are in my area) and you find a “nice” skirt but it’s not properly covering the knee. Many times the goyish stores are cheaper so ppl go there more. Of course for the tonz of ppl who shop in frum stores (many ppl do) they should stop selling the stuff. Then, ppl might also stop buying from the stores cuz the latest style is short and it doesn’t match it.
Why are the girls’ seminaries against skirts that are long. I know girls who have been sent home because their skirts were too long, is covering our legs a breach of tznius? Isn’t this better than the transparent stockings they make us wear?
Yes- bt take on things as they learn them. but there are certain things that take a while to change over i.e. covering hair. its not something which someone can get used to overnight.
becoming a chozer betshuvah is a process not something which is all or nothing.
it is much easier for someone who is brought up with something as the only option to follow it then someone who knows the other side.
every bt follows a different path depending on where they are learning from. for example, it is very common for ppl to get invited out for a shabbas meal and learn from a family until slowly they get to a point of going to learn in a seminar/yeshivah to learn more.
there is a reason why chazal say that even complete tzadikim dont stand in the place of baley teshuvah because it much harder to start something after 20/30 years of doing it differently.
Chesedname, you are mistaken about R. Moshe’s opinion. Al pi din a BT has to keep everything. Just some Rabbonim and kiruv professionals try not not to push it with some BTs at the beginning — for fear it may backfire. Aval hatsadikim shebahem keep everything, right after they find out about this or that halocha.
I know girls who have been sent home because their skirts were too long, is covering our legs a breach of tznius?
No, it is not a breach of tznius, but some (not me) has an opinion, that TOO long skirt can also take too much attention from the people on the street.
I don’t claim to understand mens taavos, but from conversations I have had with men about this topic this is what they told me:
No matter where you walk, there is always someone dressed really inappropriately (Ie shorts, tank top etc) so a Jewish woman with a skirt at her knee is NOT going to attract their attention, unless they are looking.
Now the mitzvah of tznius is a woman’s mitzvah. The side effect is that it helps men, but its not the prime reason. For example: if I have an infection and don’t feel well, I take antibiotics to clear the infection. The side effect is that I feel better, but its NOT the reason I took the antibiotics. I took it to clear the infection.
On a Jewish woman’s website, someone had asked why people wear skirts at or above their knees. The main answers were:
1) My rav allows skirts at the knee/mid knee
2) I gained some weight and my skirts don’t fit me 100% properly
3) Its really hard to find skirts that cover 100%
4) I know its wrong, but I struggle with it
Mazal, I always was taught that more tragic things happen in the summer because of the three weeks and Tisha Bav. The beis hamikdash must have been destroyed for tznius issues huh?
One reason I don’t like when this topic comes up is becuase people are so vocal against tznius, but then don’t say a thing when it comes to business ethics. Or lashon hara. Or many other mitzvos.
If kol kavodah bas melech penima was so important, why would women go out into the workforce? If it were really paramount and you wanted to protect the sanctity and tznius of a woman, making sure she was able to stay at home and raise her children would be top on the list. That certainly doesn’t happen in the yeshiva world where women are often the breadwinners.
I do not get the idea of an excuse that someone is ‘struggling with it’.
They either wear tznius or they don’t, what is “the struggle”?
What about Loshon Hara which I remember reading somewhere that there were 3 mitzvohs that everyone has to struggle with everyday and one of those is L’H’.
Yet I have never seen a heter for saying it, based on everyone having to “struggle with it”.
Hereorthere, everyone is saying “men have taavos” and I’m explaining women have them too. I didn’t say that its OK to dress in an untzniusdig (there you go Oomis!) way, but the same way people are trying to get women to understand men struggle, women struggle too…
Where did I say its ok to dress in a way that isn’t consistent with what your Rav allows? All I said was there is a debate within halacha.
And we don’t call someone who speaks lashon hara “not frum.”
Someone posted;
Excerpt…”There is no question that taaivos are an issue. However, the Muslim response to that is to put women in a chador or burquah, and only allow her eyes to show. So maybe the problem is with the man, and not the woman. Maybe men need to learn more self-control. I love the smell of a BLT, but I am not going to eat it.”
So should we say the Chochimim were wrong G-d forbid, to assur swimming and horseback riding on Shabbos?
Since I remember being taught they were not Assur D’Orisa but the Rabbonnnim assur’d them, because of making and breaking.
What I mean by making and breaking is;
In the case of swimming they were worried that people would ‘make’ a raft and so they assured swimming altogether.
In the case of horseback riding they were afraid someone might ‘break’ off a stick from a tree to hit the horse to make it go faster so they assured riding.
I could argue that I would not do those things and let those who would, learn to control themselves, but it’s not “my problem” and
thus I should be able to ride and swim all I want, even on Shabbos.
Hereorthere, I can’t speak for Oomis so I won’t attempt to. But I don’t think that’s what she meant.
SJSinNYC I hope not but then it would nice to have some clarification, which is all I am asking for.
I am so happy to see this discussion here as I have been wanting to write about this for a long time. I did not read through all of the posts, but I saw that someone wrote asking “What if the person asked their Rav if it’s ok to wear shorter skirts?” I would say that would be fine except for the fact that I highly doubt that suddenly hundreds of frum women are all asking their rabbeim at the same time. When I lived in Eretz Yisrael 10 yrs ago, I was close with one woman who wore a skirt at her knees. Today? I am saddened to see a room full of women and teenage girls sitting in the playroom in shul shmoozing while all of their knees are showing and when a man walks by, most don’t even have the sensitivity anymore to pull down their skirts. I don’t address that because of the men issue – it’s the sensitivity that is the problem. Perhaps some women don’t realize how short their skirt is b/c they don’t have a full length mirror at home -but you always know how short it is when you sit down! It’s the “pushing it to the limit” while still covering the knees by the bare minimum that I find so hard to take. Did you HAVE to buy that skirt? But my friends – the same is true for dvds and movies – how many frum homes had those ten years ago? And how many now? How many times has one of my children told me “Sure Mommy my classmate saw that PG movie”. We live in a society that is hard to shut out, and I applaud people who are doing their best, and if they are “struggling” to wear or not wear a shorter skirt, well atleast they ARE struggling, versus those that just don’t care anymore, but if you are one of those with the disregard for the bare minimum of halacha – even if you don’t wear stockings (which I believe is minhag mahakom), please don’t be my daughter’s teacher and set that example for her, b/c I hope and pray that there will still be girls in the coming years covering their knees.
And a side point – if you spend all of that money on a sheitel to cover your hair for halacha – spend a few more dollars to add a panel to your skirt or shop in a frum store that still carries longer skirts.
“I could argue that I would not do those things and let those who would, learn to control themselves, but it’s not “my problem” and
thus I should be able to ride and swim all I want, even on Shabbos”
SJSinNYC is right,and this other poster misunderstands my point, obviously, because he or she compares apples with oranges. There is NO question that doing certain things were feared by the chachomim to lead to chillul Shabbos, because in fact those things DID lead to chillul Shabbos (the mikoshesh aitzim, for example).
The issue of a skirt length being a half in longer or shorter (AND I remind you, I believe it should be longer, but that is my personal derech), is not the same inyan. If you really want a woman to be completely “tzniusdig” in dress, you may as well outfit her in a burlap sack from head to toe, as the Arabs do (and btw, they are among the MOST immoral of people). It is high time, in my opinion, for men to stop laying the blame for THEIR imnpulses, on women. Just as we have to refrain from eating certain foods, whether or not we have a taivah for them (AND WE DO REFRAIN EVERY SINGLE DAY even if it just to wait between fleishogs and milchigs), and just as a wise employee refrains from telling his boss what he REALLY thinks of him sometimes, even though said boss is a jerk, so too must we learn self-control in all areas of life. We are not little children with poor impulse control. We have to start acting like adults and not behaimas. And the half inch of skin is NOT the issue, though our women have been made to feel that way. When all is said and done at the end of the day, we alone are responsible for how we act. I applaud women who want to dress in a modest way that does not reveal too much, but I do not condemn women who dress in shorter sleeves or a skirt that skims the knee, as being “not frum,” as some people have implied them to be.
In my yeshiva they have a copy of rabbi falks sefer lying around. I read through it and it left me with a very uncomfortable feeling it seemed like the “taliban guide to judiasm”. Still he was rabbi and who am I to argue with halacha so I discussed it with one of my rebeim. he told me that the halachos brought down are the the most machmir of every shita (as opposed with sticking with one shita both for kulos and chumros I guess the reverse of taking every heter you hear of). In addition to the “halacha” he brought down he brought down every extra chumra he could think of as what a frum girl should be doing. Reading the book made me feel depressed and I can imagine how inadequate it makes girls who cant live up to its extreme version of tznius feel. i personally don’t agree with the idea of taking every single case and scenario and writing a 500 page book on it just like I don’t agree with writing a 500 page book on how a yeshiva bachur should act in every single situation. these things are a sensitivity that should taught by personal example and by personally teaching the basic guidelines. with the sensitivity woman will be able to figure out on their own ( whether it is too tight short etc.) without sensitivity you can write all the rules in the world but woman won’t be in the spirit of tznius (even following all the rules) sensitivity must be developed over time and a huge book does nothing but throw people off.
Another thing girls have to be taught is that tznius doesn’t mean make yourself look ugly. I was recently by a shabbos meal where there were about ten seminary girls from very frum seminaries 9don’t worry they were at the other end of a very big table separated by a virtual mechitza) and none of the girls were at all attractive. not because of them but because of the clothes they were wearing. tznius doesn’t mean wear sackcloth. these girls are going into shidduchim soon and I wonder if anyone told these girls that even the most yeshivish bachur is going to have to be attracted to them to marry them. If you dress like you are ashamed of your body it’s going to be difficult for a guy to get attracted to you. also ditch all the black it looks like you are going to a funeral all the time
oomis1105, look at what I wrote to you above — you must have skipped it.
SJSinNYC, about the Churban, look in Yeshaya at the beginning (around 3-4) about the sin of Bnos Tsion, for now.
A lot of good points here:
Mazal, good quote. Girls need to feel that there’s some positive benefit to themselves and the world, not just protecting the men and avoiding puroniyos.
yeshivaguy, Rav Falk is a groise talmid chacham who deserves everyone’s respect. However, his sefer isn’t pashut and I urge everyone to ask their LORs and the LORs’ wives.
rwndk1: I’m with you on the long skirts. Unless it’s sweeping the floor and will get tattered, I wouldn’t make a fuss over that. This may be an out of town/in town thing.
BS”D:
Mazel: I don’t think that the book you quote has to do with Tznius:
Daughters of Dignity: African Women in the Bible and the Virtues of Black Womanhood [Paperback] Laverne McCain Gill ?
If you are talking about Sefer Ba’akavot Rochel, it specificly states it’s both a hashkafa and a halacha book, and the two always get confused (as per the author’s ideas, not Hashem’s) to make a book like this practicly worthless for halachic purposes (not haskafic, but hashkafa (especially for tznuis) is variable).
Yeshivaguy1: The book you mention has been quoted to possibly Over the Issur of Ba’al Tosef (way over my head, just a quote from a Rav) and was strongly suggested by many (including my Roshei Yeshiva) NOT to be used (due to it not being normative halacha). I wouldn’t worry about it. In fact, I am currently attending a weekly shiur in which one of the focuses how it is Assur to “go machmir” in these issues, and the bad things that the Rav himself has seen occur due to being Machmir beyond the levels of halacha required in Innyanei Tznuis.
This does not take away from the issue being discussed here (short skirts) which is a (halachic) problem. Perhaps if you see a girl like this a woman relative should offer to take the girl shopping (and pay for it) and buy tznius & stylish clothing. I can’t imagine a girl who would turn down an offer for new clothes.
“Yet I have never seen a heter for saying it, based on everyone having to “struggle with it”.
You are absolutely right, and yet, somehow that does not seem to stop the yentas of ANYWHERE, New York, from speaking it on a regular basis. Do we say they are not frum? No, we say, it is wrong to speak loshon hara, Hashem has specified in so many ways and places that it is a terrible aveira, on par with eating treif, btw, but no one wants to put them in cheirem, as far as I know. The issue of tznius, while it has certain components that are absolutes, it has other gray areas, and though we are all so sure we “know” what the halacha is, some rabbonim hold a mekeil view in some things (i.e. the stockings issue) so there ARE some issues that are not absolutes. I have seen some incredibly tzniusdig young women (in demeanor) who were wearing clothing that some people here would feel was not “modest” by some standards. Halevai that ALL bnos Yisroel were as modest and aidel as they. I have likewise seen young women (and men) who looked the part, talked the talk, but did not walk the walk of aidelkeit.
I am not saying in any way that we should not adhere to standards of propriety. But I do think that some interpretations of propriety can be expanded a little, to include people whom others have formerly discounted.
WIth reference to Rav Falk’s sefer: Remember how Adam Harishon was machshil his wife!
oomi- thank you for your comment.
I once heard a beautiful explanation for tzniut – you conceal something precious, but it can be revealed when appropriate. If something is disgusting, you hide it at all times. If we taught our wives and daughters that tznius is an expression of their value and self-worth, rather than to cover something which has negative powers, don’t you think that would enhance the value of tznius in their eyes?>
How was adam harishon machshil his wife
Its also important that the skirt is long enough to cover the knees at all times from all sides in all positions so that you don’t have to suddenly “pull” down the skirt every time a man or boy walks by, since you will surely forget or be too late many times.
Many erlich men take off their glasses when walking outside or in the proximity of women, so no problem for them.
Do woman realize that they don’t even look good with short skirts? it’s like a cry of, i’m insecure please look at me!
i for one think woman that wear tzinusdik clothing, no 18 inch heals, no clown makeup, look secure, attractive, and making some father/husband really proud.
so if you want to look “GOOD” dress the right way, there is nothing more attractive.
It has been repeated many times that tznius is one of the most important mitzvos for a woman. What I am trying to understand is why didn’t the Torah devote at least one line to this? There are so many psukim on karbanos and family lineage but not one sentence on this? We have to look to Tehilim which says to walk modestly in front of Hashem as our best source for this requirement.
mt mehdi: It has also been repeated that tznius is for a woman what Torah learning is for a man. We can keep something only to the extent that we know it. If we educate ourselves in Torah, we’ll learn tznius throughout: from the way Chava was formed, to the Imahos (“Hinei Ba’ohel”, and many more), to Dina, to the women in Mitzrayim with the mirrors, to the Kohen Gadol using a ramp, to “K’doshim Tihyu”, “Hatzne’a Leches” and “V’haya Kadosh”.
These are just a few of the many lines of the Torah devoted to tznius.
Just as in other areas, the actual Halochos of tznius are Torah She’baal Peh.
To those who equate loshon hora with lack of tznius:
Loshon hora is usually not pre-meditated; lack of tznius usually is.
When we label someone “frum”, we mean that s/he truly tries to live in accordance with the Torah.
When a woman wears clothing that are fine according to the letter of (some Rabbonim’s interpretation of) the law, but are not in the spirit of the law (make the statement, “I wish I didn’t have to keep these laws”), she demonstrates her lack of desire for frumkeit. (I agree that this is usually due to emotional issues- e.g. low self-esteem, lack of true domestic harmony- and not because she doesn’t believe in Hashem.)
That may be why some people refer to wearers of barely-covering-the-knee skirts as “not frum.”
Why is it that this entire thread is an attack on our holy women when in fact there is much criticism to be leveled at men.
So let have the men dress and groom themselves in the neat clean fashion that is expected of us before giving musser to others, so that we can create a Kiddush Hashem and not Chas V’sholom a Chillul Hashem.
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