Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel

Maxwell: have you ever heard of mitzva haba b’aveira?!! publicly shaming people is a serious aveira and one could potentially lose one’s olam haba. why not not focus on the sinas chinum problem that we have w/i clall yisrael which is much more serious issue that needs to be dealt w/

y89 – Apparently you haven’t been following the discussion. The Sefer Hachinuch mandates public shaming as part of tochocho, if the sinner remains unrepentant.

Wolf – The proposal related to knees and elbows, insofar as the public tochocho is concerned. The discussion only relates to the public tochocho, as defined in the Sefer Hachinuch.

For the umpteenth time, if their knees and elbows are covered in public at all times and positions, they would not be subject to the public tochocho I am describing.

y89 – You are wrong. There is a reasonable chance (not a certainty) that if someones name was in the “HaPrutza” section, every week, of the paper, she would take corrective action.

This is what the Sefer Hachinuch mandates.

“You are aware that a shtreimel was originated by the Polish aristocracy, right? “

Why do you lie about chasidim. They would never wear goyishe clothing. Did you forget lo shinu as malbushum.

i think you owe every chosid who weres a streimel an apoligy.

“Talking in shul is one of my pet peeves. I personally cannot stand it when people talk in shul (although, to be brutally fair and honest, I am one of the worst offenders during krias haTorah).”

If it bothers you that much stop talking. Or are you happier being a hipocrit who is mad at people for talking when you do it yourself.

koach – I was limiting to a clear-cut issur d’oraysa. Other issues in that category too can be included in this tochocho of folks who were lovingly advised and nevertheless blatantly continued to sin – and in public to boot.

And exactly which newspaper will publish such lists? Hamodia or Yated? 🙂

I don’t know why you guys are searching for punishments. The Gemara already rules a punishment for offenders and that is ‘Yotzah Blo Kesuba’. This Din applies nowadays as well (without a Beis Din) and can be enforced through our Gedolim (if they want to). I think that with todays divorce rate you can even use it only as a threat. The guidelines are as stated in Gemara (such as elbows uncovered even sometimes, hair in public areas etc.) The grey area however will be, as The Wolf pointed out, stockings (below the knee) and Tefach of hair, which according to some are included in Das Yehudis while some argue. You could say however that it should go according to Minhag Hamakom.

I never learned the Sefer HaChinuch but don’t you have to be really careful that they are sinning just to sin or something, not because the Yetzer Harah is very strong? I might very well be wrong but to my logic if your not allowed to just call people Reshaim then it could be by this too.

If it bothers you that much stop talking. Or are you happier being a hipocrit who is mad at people for talking when you do it yourself.

So youll just answer for it on the yom hadin. I wouldnt want to be you then.

As much as I usually disagree with you, on this you are 100% right. I am a hypocrite in this regard and I have no doubt that I will have to answer to the Ultimate Judge for my sin of talking and disturbing people during krias HaTorah one day. Teshuva cannot help me because I don’t really regret it. 🙁

The Wolf

wolf is a baal koreh, that’s why he “talks” during laining.

Nonetheless, I have full confidence that I will one day be taken to task for it and have to give a full Din V’Cheshbon on it. 🙁

The Wolf

i waited for quite a while to spoil your fun, but no sense needlessly aggravating people.

I wasn’t trying to aggravate anyone. My apologies if that’s the way it came out.

The Wolf

i didnt think you were TRYING to aggravate anyone. just being humorous.

Granted, you have good reason to think that based on past history. Nonetheless, that’s not the case this time. Sadly, emotions don’t come out very well in text.

The Wolf

This is a little silly. Do you think that publishing people’s names in a newspaper will actually get anything done? Sure, we can burn tires in front of their homes as well. But we will only be adding to the 97% of Khal Yisrael that is not frum. Yes, throw her out without a Kesubah. It usually is a joint effort, if not with the open then the tactile approval of the husband. And find the husband who is looking to throw out the mother of his children because she doesn’t cover her knees. Sure, it’s all true from a technical halachic standpoint, but irrelevant, because certainly we’re trying to actually get something done, not just make some noise.

Is there a problem? Certainly. I don’t know the solution, and know that we men are just as much part of the problem. Women are merely the canary in the coal mine. The priorities of our community have been dramatically warped in the last decade, and the battle lines have been redrawn totally. The infusion of Kollel, a Shidduch Crisis, internet addiction, a general destruction of any semeblance of decency in geenral secular culture have taken their horrible toll. But “for every thousand who strike at the leaves of evil, there is one striking at the root” – Thoreau.

Rumor has it – and where or not it happened is irrelevant, as it is still true – that a Bais Yakov HS asked for permission to edit their photos in their yearbook. Apparently, your HS photo is your photo for shidduch eternity. They decided to test out the hypothesis. They inserted the photo of a model, made up a name and added horrible lashon hara about her throughout the yearbook, and added that she was going into rehab instead of seminary. The Menaheles received a number of phone from shadchanim, and one from a parent. The girls got permission to photoshop their photos. Sad, really. But reality. That’s the reality we’ve gotto change. Ultimately, under the surface, in the guts of things, we worship beauty. Just not as openly as the secular world. When that worhsip really changes, then things will change. Until then, young ladies will live according to that which we teach them – really, really, teach, what we demand for our sons, not that which we preach. But how do we change? How does a community change? The delicate channel we have the secular world, taking the good and leaving the bad – has become skewed. And now what?

I wish I had the glib one line, terribly sure answer, and comfortably condemn thousands of women to the depths of hell, unless, of course they listen to me immediately. I know that I’m part of the problem, and that I’ve got to change. That’s going to be hard enough for me.

Besides, we’d have to add another supplement to the Hamodiah for such a list, and that something I certainly wouldn’t want responsiblity for.

“tactile” (means related to sense of touch)

Did you mean tacit approval? What you wrote was unintentionally humorous, given the nature of this forum. And please forgive me, I am not trying to embarrass you – I thought it was a cute mistake (the type which I make very often).

Oops! Indeed, your tact is appreciated! No pun intend, though I wish I could claim I did.

Also, I’m sorry I wrote in a rush, – yes, you are correct. All of the various callers had seen the yearbook picture and wanted their boy to go out with the model – regardless of her obvious issues. So what exactly is going to happen? that’s the real message our girls get, just like the father who darshans to his children about the importance of learning, and spending every night watching dvds. They too, will watch dvds while they berate their sons to learn…

I thought everyone knew this

Moq is a .NET Framework library for creating mock objects. It leverages C# 3.0 lambda expressions, typically used in Test Driven Development and Behavior Driven Development.

A mock object (option 2 that I listed).

I’m just wondering if there is some svara behind it (unless he or she is a programmer, of course).

I wouldn’t even know how to pronounce it.

I assumed it was just meant to compete with me

the rabbonim have been crying out against the terrible breaches in tznius, especially during the summer, but recently it has gotten out of hand all year long.

Do you mean that any solution is better then no solution? That seems destructive.

Doing nothing is the most destructive thing of all. One has a chiuv to protest pritzus or any other sin in a suitable forum. What negative outcomes can happen if one writes in places such as the CR or other non-threatening places, such as writing letters to publications and the like, about the importance of tznius?

I propose the problems isn’t “those evil prutzahs”.

Prutzasdige women are part of the problem. They are not babies. They are adults who make adult decisions and should know better. We will all be held accountable for are deeds, prutzahs included.

I propose we as a society – men and women – need to do some soul searching, and reevaluate our priorities.

That would be the ideal situation, but it will never happen if people will not be aware of the harshness of pritzus.

Or terribly large seforim which have little to do with Halacha, but running on the terrible need to make more and more rules to compensate for the lost feeling of tzinius.

If you are talking about Rabbi Falk’s sefer, then it has much to do about halachas of tznius.

You are right though. It cannot compensate for the lost feelings of tznius. That’s a tragedy in itself.

Has the sledgehammer mehalach ever worked in our generation? EVER? Or has it just made people defensive? Has anyone really done anything because you threaten them?

On this forum, I don’t see anyone threatening anybody. Saying the truth about din v’cheshbon is not threatening. It is saying the truth.

Also, in a lot of schools where tznius is very enforced, the majority of girls do end up being tzniusdig as married women. Learning about tznius and enforcing the rules from when girls are young, create a feeling of tznius in these girls which doesn’t change for most of them, even after marriage.

It is also very important to create a feeling FOR tznius, not just OF tznius, as you are trying to say. But the bottom line is that, yes, using the sledghammer to chisel a beautiful form of a Jewish daughter as opposed to leaving one huge blob of a human is what we are doing our entire lives in chinuch as parents and educators. Certainly we should do that in the area of tznius.

This is not Europe. There is no organized Kehilla. We need to accept these realities, and look inward.

Wow! You brought out a very good point. Maybe that is the problem and that’s why in the Chassidishe communities halachas of tznius are , in the majority of cases, mostly adhered to.

I haven’t been reading this thread only intermittently. So, please forgive me if this has been spoken about already.

It bothers me tremendously when girls wearing shirts that look very nice when standing up but when they bend over or sit down, one sees more then they bargained for. Please don’t tell me not to look. It happens everywhere. In the grocery, on the street when someone bends down to pick up something or tie a shoe lace. Whats wrong with having a stylish t-shirt that is long enough. I know there are t-shirts like that out there, just not enough sadly.

HALXTP

Has printing the name of of husbands who have ignored a Beis Din’s order to give a get ever helped?

We don’t live in a shtetl in Europe. Will a non-jew or a secular Jew walking down Ave J or 13 ave skimply dressed care?

On a more serious note:

Tznius is probably the most difficult area of Chinuch. Those who are involved must have the proper Hashkafah, intent and strategy.

Bump