Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel

All we have left to rely on is our Father in Heaven.

gavra, that is true. But when talking about yirah shomayim, it is completely up to us. As Chazal (I think it think the source for this posuk is Chazal) say everything is in the hands of shomayim with the exception of yiras shomayim.

“This nation is characterized by three things: they are compassionate, bashful, and benevolent [rachmanim, baishanim, ve-gomlei chasadim].” (Yevamot 79a)

“How does an individual know if he is doing Hashem’s will and following the right derech?”

The ONLY answer to this question is to have a Rov.

gavra, True, but a Rov or a Rabbi, whatever you want to call it, can also be Conservative. Or a Neturei Karta. One needs to be clear that the derech mehalach they are following is truly for an oivad Hashem.

P.S. The Chassidish (really Hungarian/Satmer) Mehalech (in general, Clearheaded!) is more Machmir regarding Tznius. This is NOT halacha Pesuka, but none the less should be applauded (within reason).

Tell me about it. Although I’m not Satmer, I know a lot about them. I look up to those who wear a shpitzel and the like, but would I grow up in that community, I would have a problem as I don’t think I could wear one. They are very machmir about tznius. Good for them, but of course, we are not talking here about what some feel are extreme chumros, rather chumros that are very reasonable and accepted by all over the world by frum communities, Chassidish, Yehsivish or otherwise.

The reason why need these chumros are because as the modes of change dress, the application of halacha changes. These are not chumros to make life harder, rather they are minhugim we adopt, as our nation has adopted throughout the centuries, to adapt our current lifestyle so that we can live according to halacha.

I’m not saying one needs to continuously look to be machmir. But the derech one a Yid needs to be on is a derech a derech of true avodas Hashem. One needs to fit in their current lifestyle into the parameters of halacha, not halacha needs to fit into their current lifestyle.

thanks blinky.

wolf, I was totally not offeneded.

#1 – Philosopher, mechila, it is not the chumros that have allowed us to adhere to the letter of the law throughout the generations, it is limud Torah for men, and Tznius for women, as it is chazal meforeshes that Torah tavlin leyetzer horah, and nothing else, and it is the Chasam Sofer who stated clearly that the same is true for women, through their dargos of tznius.

Tznius is HALACHA, period. Certainly we can understand the mesorah of it, the hashkafa of it, most importantly, the beauty of it. However, it is halacha, and although I read only a few of the posts, I did see confusion. For example, those who spoke about the knee perhaps didn’t realize that this is simply untrue. There is no heter for skirts uncovering the knee, as by everyone’s definition, the knee in its entirety is part of the thigh. This does not differ whether one is Ashkenazi or Sephardi, Litvish or chassidish.

As for the deterioration of tznius in our generation, it is sad. Unfortunately, it is closely connected to the deterioration of self-esteem in today’s generation. Women today do not necessarily dress for men, rather they dress for women. It is so so sad. If people want to be mechanech their daughters, they need to first and foremost be taught their values as daughters to the king, daughters to the family, and their ability to give to society. Teaching our girls to fulfill their potential, bringing them back into the kitchen so that they can be taught that it is important when they give to their homes, neighbors, community, again, and not pushed in school to produce for a curriculum if it is hard for them to be successful, or forget success – hard for them to be noticed. Let’s face it – the inert messages given in the schools today are not the healthiest. Please do not mistake this to mean that girls should not be educated or pushed to their potential in academics. Anyone who has ever raised a child understands that one can encourage success in one area while being mechanech them on where the priority needs to be.

If we cherish our daughters, we can learn to communicate that so that they learn to cherish their value.

Hatzlocha Ubrocha.

ir, Torah (learning AND living) and tznius is what helps us in our struggles against the y”h, so consequently this is part of what helped us adhere to Torah living. But it’s a cycle. Learning for the sake of learning about our traditions without doing the mitzvohs of keeping Shabbos, bris milah, eating kosher, etc. will not get us too far. Therefore chumros help us to ADHERE to halacha and to practice and live with halacha.

Remember, part of what the Chashmonuim fought the Greeks was because of Shabbos and bris milah too.

Chumros is not the right word, it’s true. But I am talking here to people who see it as such, much like I see some very frum people practicing what I feel is chumros that the Torah doesn’t demand of us.

But the truth is, whatever keeps us from violating halacha is part of halacha and they are not chumros.

Clearheaded:

That is why the Rov has to have his own Rebbe/Rov, who can guide him from the pitfalls.

“But when talking about yirah shomayim, it is completely up to us. As Chazal (I think it think the source for this posuk is Chazal) say everything is in the hands of shomayim with the exception of yiras shomayim.”

Of course. Are you saying that the problems we see with non compliance with Halachic Tznius are due to a lack in Yiras Shomayim?

Now, here’s another point of view.

Men have no business staring at other women. It’s true that I don’t have a man’s yetzer hora and I don’t understand what that entails.

But is it fair to your wife, beside of to yourself, when there are men that keep on staring and looking at women? Or talking to them in a certain way, I don’t have to elaborate. I have nebach seen wives, all dressed up and glamorous, they their dress and manner say “look at me, look at me”, because their husbands don’t look, they are busy staring at others.

These wives feel like something is missing and try to dress in a way that gets them attention because they feel it’s missing.

I’m not excusing those women’s behavour, but husbands should make sure their wives feel loved and appreciated and beautiful. And they should also say we don’t want you on the streets dressed untzniusdig. And the bottom line is that men who stare at other women should refrain from doing so. It makes their wives feel insecure.

Gavra, my apologies. I was partly refering to yiras chet and I should have mentioned that my “vort” about yirah/yiras shomayim was my own. I usually do say that, but here and there I forget to indicate as such.

Yiras shomayim of Hashem is the only yiras shomayim that exists.

You may be refering to Yiras Chet.

There is no yiras chet without yiras shomayim. The two are entertwined. How can you fear sinning without fearing Hashem? Or how can you fear Hashem without fearing to disobey His laws?

Sometimes, a woman who is not betznius has a total lack of yiras shomayim and consequently a total lack of yiras chet.

But yes, in certain areas, one can fear Hashem and yet for various reasons will not fear sinning in a particular area, so I guess that would be reffered to as a lack yiras chet. But I would think that a lack of yiras chet, even in one area, is a lack of yiras shomayim in that particular area, because refusal to acknowledge the severity, or excusing oneself with various excuses, show that one does not fear Hashem when it comes to a particular area where one sins continuously and openly. We are not talking about mistakes, beshogeg, but rather openly violating halachas. It may very well indicate a lack of yiras shomayim and consequently yiras chet in one particular area, I would think.

This is separate in case it doesn’t go through:

The reason for 1 above is orthopraxy, and the reason for 2 is not teaching our girls the deep rooted basis of Tznius and Das Moshe V’Yehudis in Halacha (vs. being a “modern idea”).

If the community actively punished those who dress untzniusdik, it would have an impact and reduce the massive chillul Hashem and many other aveiros they do with this act, and even worse cause many others to sin.

Unfortunately (since there is no beis din) even though we can’t give her malkos for their public pritzus transgressions, as that would likely be most effective in reducing this crime, we have other avenues available to us. We could not give aliyos to husbands and fathers who allow their wives and daughters to go in public in a non-tznius manner. Or other potential punishments that can be utilized.

I agree. We should stop giving aliyos to talkers AND those who allow pritzus. The latter though is immeasurably worse, as they are not only sinning themselves, but are causing untold numbers of others to sin as well.

I am one of the worst offenders during krias haTorah).

The Wolf

What about between aliyos? I’m trying to be melamed zchus here 🙂

Wolf: I would hope you are at least talking Torah during leining.

Wolf: I would hope you are at least talking Torah during leining.

Does it matter? It’s just as bad to talk Torah during laining as it to talk anything else. And, sadly, I cannot do teshuva for it, as I don’t really regret it. 🙁

The Wolf

“Does it matter?”

Yes, it matters. If you are talking Torah, you don’t need teshuva. It is a kappara all its own.

But what if he is “talking Torah”?

Wolf,

I must ask you about the usage of “kriah” as in “Ba’al kriah”. I agree that when speaking in the plural sense, “Ba’alei kriah” is appropriate. But when speaking in singular, “Ba’al korei” seems more appropriate.

IANABD (I am not a ba’al dikduk) – Just asking a sincere question

I must ask you about the usage of “kriah” as in “Ba’al kriah”.

I believe it’s more correct and is similar to the term “Ba’al Tefilah.” Ba’al Kriah means “master of the reading.” I’m not sure what “Ba’al Koreh” means.

However, I’m not a dikduk expert either and could just as easily be wrong.

The Wolf

just last nite i was very disturbed by this obvious breach in tznius. i was at a wedding of a schoolmate, and i was disgusted to see how some guests were dressed. these girls, some still in high school, others married with their own kids, all come from fine, FRUM families, and their skirts were tight and above their knees, their blouses/shirts were very flashy…

g2g but it was very disturbing

That is very disturbing.

The problem is getting worse and worse. It is time for drastic action.

It is time for drastic action.

What drastic things did you have in mind?

The Wolf

This problem is so serious, that perhaps a unrepentant sinner should be publicly shamed with their names in the paper.

Okay… so the cure for the aveira of immodesty is the aveira of lashon hara?

That, also, leaves aside the question of who, exactly, is an “unrepentant sinner.” Is a woman who doesn’t wear stockings in the summer an “unrepentant sinner?” In other words, whose standards of tznius are we going to use to determine who is, in fact, a “sinner?*”

The Wolf

* And please don’t say “the Torah’s standards.” You know as well as I do that there are numerous interpretations of what that means. I’m asking for specific details.

The Wolf

It is actually the mitzvah of tochacho.

There are guidelines to tochacha. Do they include public shaming in a newspaper? If so, please present a source that indicates such.

And lets not use the cop out since there are different standards we should not do anything. Uncovered knees, whether all the time or when in various positions, is beyond the pale.

I’m not coping out. I’m asking a specific question. What are the standards that will be used to determine the “sinners?”

The Wolf

Uncovered knees or elbows is a standard.

I’m not asking for *a* standard… I’m asking for *the* standard. The difference is this:

If uncovered knees and elbows are “the standard” then anything else beyond it is okay. Tight clothes? Red? No stockings? And so on.

In other words, what I’m looking for is this: what things will you NOT look at when determining who is a “sinner?” What are ALL the things that you will be looking at when making this determination.

The Wolf

Let’s start with that.

No, no, no. It can’t be “let’s start with that.” There have to be clear guidlines as to where you will *end.* Otherwise, it just degenerates into a “witch hunt” of ever-stricter policies. People deserve to know at the outset at what point they will be free from harassment — deserved or not.

The point is that you want to encourage (or enforce) compliance, right? Well, to do so, you have to give clear guidelines and not “change the rules” as you go along.

The Wolf