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How can anyone in good concience wear a wig that looks like real hair, long hair, flouncy, attention grabbing, etc.
Where are the sensibilities, let alone tznius??
SJS, you missed the point of my point. Whether or not you feel the knee may be halachicaly uncovered, the minute part of the knee gets uncovered, the thigh gets revealed as well.
And that is because of simple human biology. The knee is appr. 2″ high and the the thigh is attached to the knee. If you don’t believe me do some research (just kidding) Therefore even if your Rabbi tells you that the knee is not part of the shuk, if the knee does get uncovered, the part of the thigh in the majority of cases gets uncovered as well.
Aderabe, if you don’t believe me, try on your straight skirts which reach your bottom part of your knee and sit in front of a mirror. Check out what gets revealed when you are sitting.
Even if the skirt is very flairy and won’t reveal part of your thigh in front of the mirror, when going up steps and sitting into a car it will definitely reveal part of your thigh, because as I’ve mentioned, the knee is only about 2″ high and unless you’re wearing a skirt made out of cardboard which will stay in one place, your thigh lower thigh WILL become uncovered.
Helpful, I think I said it here before but I’ll say it again. The Gemara says that one who teaches his daughter Torah is as if he teaches them Tiflos. The reason for that is, Torah isn’t based on emotions but on Halacha. The reason it carries the name Shulchan Aruch is because it is fully prepared. The Chachamim made the Gedarim as they saw fit and we can’t add on based on feelings and emotions.
I will IY”H discuss the Halachos of Sheitels one days.
SJS- i seriously suggest you research the halacha again. It’s a major major mistake that people make. NO ONE says that the knee might not be considered the shok. Maybe that’s not what you remember learning, but were playing with serious stuff here, as i said before, not with many other parts of the body, the shok if even less then a tefach shows the husband cannot make a bracha in front of his wife. That’s pretty severe if you learn through the halachos. Have a good shabbos
regarding sheitlach, seriously, i don’t understand why the kind of shaitlach that are being sold today are ok. The hair is suppose to be covered and the shaitlach today defeat the purpose, they are always much prettier than one’s natural hair. they only look more attractive and more rich. once at the y”t seuda we were discussing it and it came out very scary, it sounds like the CH”CH basically assured them. If you go through seforim the guidelines the shaitlach need are practically non existant. Not better looking than hair, eye catching…
Sof, the reason to cover hair is because the hair on your head is erva. Its not to make you look less attractive.
I’ll bet they’re all turning in their graves the way yiddishe techter are dressing based on their rulings.
They are not turning in their graves because it’s not their fault that women dress not tzniusdig because of their rulings.
If we play around with Hashem’s laws then its not Hashem’s fault either. Halacha is halacha.
Btw, Rabbi Falk has an excellent book regarding the halachas of wigs. Sorry, I can’t remember the title of the book.
Also does anybody know where I can get a relatively low priced (not more than $600), good quality European hair wig WITHOUT a skin part? I can’t find such a wig anywhere.
SJS: Why does the Torah consider the parts that are erva, to be erva (and to be treated as erva is treated)?
When you have that answer, your point is refuted.
“The hair is suppose to be covered and the shaitlach today defeat the purpose, they are always much prettier than one’s natural hair.”
The halacha is that the hair is supposed to be covered. Nowhere that I have learned does it say that the covering has to be ugly. Your comment pre-supposes that the REASON for covering the hair is to cover up beauty (hence you extrapolate from this that to wear a pretty shaitel defeats the purpose of covering the hair). That would also tend to eliminate pretty hats, pretty scarves/tichels, and anything other than the type of shaitel my Bubby O”H wore in the old days.
The reason for covering the hair is that once the woman is an eishes ish, only her husband is permitted to see her erva and the hair has changed its status to erva as with other parts of her body that are erva, upon marriage. NOT because it is beautiful, not for any other reason than the change of its status to erva. You may as well tell women they cannot wear pretty clothing, also. And you would be out of line to do so.
I haven’t been reading the coffee room lately because of my busy schedual. I’m glad to see I didnt’ miss much: everyone is still yelling that women aren’t tznius. As a business person, I would like to see some rants about men and business ethics. I was once threatened by members of a prominent organization (do what we say or we will beshmutz your name in the comunity). I was thinking that perhaps things like THAT were keeping Moshiach away and the cause of so many tzaros in klal Yisroel.
I don’t either like when women who call themselves frum dress improperly, I just don’t focus on it as much as all of you do.
just me – ???? ???!
As a business person, I would like to see some rants about men and business ethics.
just me, why don’t you open such a thread? This is a serious issue that needs to be addressed and discussed.
Oomis, sorry for being blunt but your reasoning sounds like Reform theology.
oomis, where did you see in halacha that one is not allowed to go with a hot pink tank top, provided they are wearing (a skin tight, of course) t-shirt underneath?
We follow gedolim and we have gedorim so that we do not come to violate halacha. After that we were also blessed with seichel, common sense, if of course, it is used in the proper framework.
Now it doesn’t matter if one is wearing a shaitel or if a girl’s hair is styled in an extremely long and flouncy hairstyle, the fact is that it attracts negative attention and a woman who has the proper feelings for tznius automatically understands what is pritzusdig and what not. You cannot always say, I don’t know where it’s written…
Whatever causes a woman to be ostentatious and cause negative attention to herself is a violation of tznius.
That does not mean that women cannot be dressed in a beautiful manner. Refined does not mean nebby. We don’t need to be dressed in baggy clothes, just not tight. We don’t need to wear a shaitel that is totaly chopped, not washed and looks like a bathing cap made of hair (like the old wigs), rather a wig should be styled beautifuly, but refined and aidel . We don’t need to wear only black clothing, we can wear refined colors.
If one’s life is not clearly defined, rather we go by it doesn’t say this or it doesn’t say that, then it’s extremely similiar to the Reform, Conservative and all those who follow a mushy type of it-doesn’t-say-anywhere kind of Judaism. Where does it say in the Torah that a man is not allowed to have more than one wife? Where does it say that you’re not allowed to drive with a car? Gedolim paskened? Well, they don’t follow our Gedolim! They follow their golumim.
Our Gedolim clearly poskened what is right and wrong and we need to follow their guildelines.
philosopher, who really reads the Yeshiva World? Probably not the people who would benefit or listen to any bodies rants. Does anyone here seriously think that a woman who wear skirts that aren’t up to the coffee room’s esteemed oiylem’s standard is going to change because of the posts here? When you rant here, you are pretty much “preaching to the choir”. With business ethics, too many people have no clue what they are doing that are wrong. Cases in point, the person who bargined until my profit margin was almost nil because they claimed they were going to buy a few of the items. She bought 2 right away and was supposed to call and tell me what size the other would be. When I finally called her, she said she couldn’t buy because her husband lost his part-time job and was in kollel the rest of the time. These are your ethics? That was GEZAILA. I forgive the woman because she did taught me not to trust in business. A good lesson worth the money. The people who threatened my family (and I heard many others)think that they are protecting this “fine” frum organization so it is mutar. Do you think THEY would even recognize themselves if they even read it?
Rants here are good for getting things off your chest. They are also sometimes amusing to write or to read. I don’t think they are productive besides that.
I am glad, though, to see that some people agreed with my post.
just me, first of all, you never know who reads these threads and if it effects anybody. And even if it doesn’t, regardless, we must do our part. Hashem doesn’t expect us to change anybody and neither should we think we can do that in the CR, but we are mechiov, if we see something wrong to talk about it. But that doesn’t mean we should excusively focus only on the negative aspects of klal Yisroel, we b”H have amazing communities, people who do chesed and good deeds.
I don’t think Hashem wants us to go into the streets and scream out our opinions. I think He wants us to discuss what is right and wrong in a suitable forum.
“Oomis, sorry for being blunt but your reasoning sounds like Reform theology. “
Seriously??? And you once again are exaggerating, which weakens your point. Reform Jews do not believe in covering the hair at all (not their men’s either, with a yarmulke). Stop with the hyperbole, already.
You cannot always say, I don’t know where it’s written…
YEs you can, and you should. People have the absolute right to know the HALACHIC (not minhag of some, not chumros of some)sources when someone is trying to tell them they are doing something the wrong way. Otherwise, the person who is giving them mussar should stay silent.
BTW, not only does it NOT say in the Torah that a man cannot have more than one wife – The Torah outlines a whole series of halachos exclusively devoted to the proper way to treat the additional wife and her children. It was Rabbeinu Gershom who made the takana to have only one wife (and not to open other people’s mail), and it was for a self-limiting time period, I believe, (and that time has passed, but we nonethless have not reverted back to legally bigamous marriages). Hashem allowed MANY things that we no longer do today because of the takanos of our Gedolim, who were invested with the halachic power to do so. But if we accept that the Torah is perfect as it came from Hashem, it does leave way to say that His intention was a little different from theirs, but they obviously saw a need to enact gedarim to preserve His intent.
oomis – you better check your seforim again, and i’m serious. Once a women is married hair has the status of erva. it must be covered. this may sound crazy, but why not wear a garment that looks exactly like the body – to cover it? Doesn’t that sound a little crazy? Doesn’t that defeat the purpose? The shaitlach today are even nicer, even more attractive and beautiful than anyone’s natural hair. To wear a gorgeous shaitel for your husband but where’s the heter to were it for everyone else? Check it out, the ch”ch has a section on this topic.
The question, philosopher, is are accomplishing something or just talking lashon hara? If all you are doing is arguing and ranting about what “they” (usually women) are doing, then it is lashon hara plain and simple.
I don’t know how you get people to dress more tzniusdik but judging from the language and the tones here, I don’t think anyone would be inspired to change their dress by reading things here.
Again, it is amazing how often the CR ends up as a place to say how awful women are and how they are stopping Moshiach from coming. Amazing how you poor, unfortunate men have to put up with the likes of us.
I use the screen name “Just Me” becaues I realized that that is the only person I can change. I do my thing and I try to live in a way that would give nachas to the Rebonon Shel Olam, my Tatte, and try to just ignore the bad that many other people do. I do what I can for kiruv (I’ve been involved with Project:Yes, Aish HaTorah and Partners in Torah) but in the end, I think being a good Jew and showing that you can be frum and not obnoxious is the only way.
Frankly, the fellows trying to shut down tznius discussions are part of the problem, not the solution. They don’t like hearing it because they don’t want to change. The Torah discusses tznius, and men and women learn it. Men are responsible for the maintenance of halachos – including tznius – in their household. Their is every reason to discuss it. And giving tochocho is an obligation, not a choice.
Other problems are not an excuse to ignore this one. And where there is smoke there is fire. Someone better call the fire department before the house burns down. I give people more credit than to ignore the cries – including here – for rectification.
Philosopher, thanks for elaborating on my post, but I think justme is right. Can we get together? I have a great idea to work together for everyone’s good. I’ve been looking for the right person for years and it seems you fit the bill and would love it. Please ask the mod for my email and/or ask him to send me yours. (No name needed.) Thanks.
The question, philosopher, is are accomplishing something or just talking lashon hara? If all you are doing is arguing and ranting about what “they” (usually women) are doing, then it is lashon hara plain and simple.
First of all, nobody can know who gets influenced and what kind of hoshpoah somebody has. Just as TV and secular media can have an hoshpoah, so can talking and discussing frum issues. You don’t know. Second of all, one is allowed to discuss tznius/untznius just as one is allowed to discuss business ethics/cheating. If you feel otherwise then I question how you could’ve post your comment regarding ethics as that would’ve been loshen hora on the people who don’t practice business ethics. Furthermore, by your feeling of what halacha of loshen hora is, you shouldn’t have clicked on this thread as by clicking on this thread and knowing what the contents of this thread are then you are, by your standards, violating the laws of l”h.
I don’t know how you get people to dress more tzniusdik but judging from the language and the tones here, I don’t think anyone would be inspired to change their dress by reading things here.
You might not be. There are others with different opnions and feelings, thoughts and behavours, out there.
Again, it is amazing how often the CR ends up as a place to say how awful women are and how they are stopping Moshiach from coming. Amazing how you poor, unfortunate men have to put up with the likes of us
Interesting, I don’t remember ever seeing posts about how awful we women are (that would include me as a woman) and that we are stopping Moshiach from coming. I guess people read what they want to.
I use the screen name “Just Me” becaues I realized that that is the only person I can change. I do my thing and I try to live in a way that would give nachas to the Rebonon Shel Olam, my Tatte, and try to just ignore the bad that many other people do. I do what I can for kiruv (I’ve been involved with Project:Yes, Aish HaTorah and Partners in Torah) but in the end, I think being a good Jew and showing that you can be frum and not obnoxious is the only way.
I have been through that before. Somehow, if one doesn’t like what’s another is saying they label them obnoxious and judgemental.
Why did you write that you’re happy to see that someone (me)agrees with you regarding business ethics? Am I not being obnoxious to others when I agree with you?
I have a very big suspicion that those who hock against the idea of having tznius discussions, calling those who stand up for halacha obnoxious, judgemental, etc. would fall all over themseleves trying to get in a word in a thread about business ethics against those who do not practice it.
“you better check your seforim again, and i’m serious. Once a women is married hair has the status of erva. “
Nobody is disputing that fact with you, please re-read what I wrote. Her actual HAIR absolutely has the new status of erva once she is married, just as she has the status of tehora when she goes to the mikvah, something she could not do or be when she was still single.
Nowhere that I am aware of does a mainstream accepted Rov say a married woman must cover her head with something ugly. You are presuming that the reason for the halacha is that ANY hair that looks like her own hair, is ALSO erva and untzniusdig, when it may merely be that the actual hair physically growing from her head is the erva AND NO OTHER HAIR THAT SHE WEARS IS A PROBLEM, because it is not her own natural hair. If that is the case, then you might be mistaken. The reason for covering the hair is that Hashem commands it, and thereby this part of a woman’s body is reserved for her husband’s eyes and no other man. There may be many suppositions regarding reasons for this mitzvah, which is not delineated beferush in the Torah Shebichsav, but at the end of the day, suppositions are not halacha.
As to your analogy of wearing a dress that looks like her body, do you honestly not see a difference between wearing a wig that looks like the hair that is permissible to be seen before marriage, and a dress resembling the female form, most of which is NEVER permissible to be shown where men might be at ANY time? Please, this argument makes no sense at all. Hair is not intrinsically untzniusdig, UNTIL a woman has acquired the status of eishes ish. The female body according to most poskim, except for the lower arms, lower legs, head and upper neck, is ALWAYS untzniusdig if uncovered. It is simply not the same thing at all. Nice try, though.
I think what’s so hard about Tznius is that for the most part clothing depends on the person wearing it so you can’t just say this or that is untznius across the board since on one person it could be that it’s really not appropriate but on someone else its totally fine.
Also, when people start talking about tznius and the “extras” they tune out and it’s like well thats what you do but I do different. Since not everything is clear-cut, we all know elbows, knees, and collarbone and it shouldn’t be too tight. But the spirit of the law should also be followed. I heard this mashal from someone:
So these people just get married. After the Sheva Brachos the husband comes home one day and takes out a piece of paper with a list of how to be a good husband. Starts with, say hi how are you, honey. So he reads off the paper to her and goes through it. The wife will not be happy.
Same here, we could read off the list Hashem gave with tznius and check off what we do but that doesn’t mean it’ll make Hashem that happy.
“but in the end, I think being a good Jew and showing that you can be frum and not obnoxious is the only way.”
I am with you on that. Yasher Koach on your involvement with Aish HaTorah, PIT, and Project Yes. You talk the talk AND walk the walk.
YEs you can, and you should. People have the absolute right to know the HALACHIC (not minhag of some, not chumros of some)sources when someone is trying to tell them they are doing something the wrong way. Otherwise, the person who is giving them mussar should stay silent.
And what chumros are you reffering to? The basic definition of what tznius means? Tznius means basheden, it means having a sense of busha, it means hidden.
So exactly how does a long founcy wig fit in with the definition of tznuius? How does tight fitting clothing fit in with that definition?
There is nothing to explain if you cannot understand the basic concept of what tznius is all about. Once you understand that then we can talk about different halachos, shittos and minhugim that different and their sources.
BTW, not only does it NOT say in the Torah that a man cannot have more than one wife …
Exactly that is my point. Driving a car on Shabbos, having more than one wife, etc. these are all things that Rabbonim later enacted to keep klal Yisroel on track. So are the halachos regarding tzniusdige dressing that are current in our times enacted by Gedolim. Who are your Gedolim? That’s the bottom line. If I will quote you Rabbi Falk, whos halachas are accepted worlwide by frum communities you may say that I have a different shitta than him. So what’s the point in discussing sources? Let’s not do that.
Let’s go to the simple definition of what a tznua is.
A long, flouncy shaitel doesn’t attract negative attention?
Skin tight clothing doesn’t reveal the shape of the ,/em>
body?
Very bright colors doesn’t attract attention?
Very shiny mettalic accesories or shoes don’t attract attention?
If you answer in the negative here, then whom are you kidding?
Hashem allowed MANY things that we no longer do today because of the takanos of our Gedolim, who were invested with the halachic power to do so. But if we accept that the Torah is perfect as it came from Hashem, it does leave way to say that His intention was a little different from theirs, but they obviously saw a need to enact gedarim to preserve His intent.
Your contradicting yourself here. On one hand you are saying that “it does leave way to say that His intention was a little different from theirs” and on the other hand you are saying that “they obviously say a need to enact gedorim to preserve His intent”.
Right on terget again, philosopher. Please read my previous post and respond. Thanks.
I heard this story somewhere, it could be exaggerated or not true at all but the message is still good.
There was a dibbuk in a tree. One day people came to cut the tree down and he needed to go somewhere else. A woman was dressed untzniusly so he was able to enter her and he did.
Now I don’t know if it’s true but if someone doesn’t keep tznius then, they bring bad things upon themselves.
I noticed that girls (or women) once they get married it’s like they don’t have to keep tznuis anymore. What’s with that? I’ve seen it a couple of times. Frum woman walking with their knees uncovered and stuff once they get married. What would be their thinking as to why its okay and things?
Sister Bear: There dressing like zona’s. I’ve seen it with unmarried girls too.
msseeker, I just read your previous post and it sounds exciting!
Moderator how can I get msseeker’s email?
Dave Hirsch -While you are correct in your statement -many poskim did assur shaitels altogether. Maybe the reason was because they knew that one day people would wear these long shaitels to make themselves look better than if they would go with their hair uncovered.
Philosopher, Rav Falk’s book contains many, many chumras. Just because people follow his shittah, does NOT change that.
There are rabbonim who assur ALL forms of sheitels (including Rav Elyashiv).
The halacha is that a woman is required a head or hair covering (depending on the shittah). Lenght, style etc has to be taken on a case by case basis. Should curly sheitels be outlawed? After all, they do attract more attention.
If we assured anything that attracted attention, women would have to be locked up. I don’t know the last time you were on the subway and saw a chassidish women (especially in the summer) but I can tell you they attract a lot of stares.
If everyone is wearing metallic shoes, no one will really notice because its not eye catching. Same with bright colors.
Conclusion: Women should dress in brown homespun gowns with turtlenecks, long sleeves, 70 denier minimum stockings and a snood.
philosopher/clearheaded:
The sense of Busha is gone in Klal Yisroel (in America), it has gone the way of the Lexus (and food stamps, but in a different way, and same for EY (HAV HAV!)). If the men can attract, the women feel they can (and should) as well. The men do it with their cars, suits and cellphones, while the women do it with their skirts, pocketbooks and blouses.
All we have left to rely on is our Father in Heaven.
(I don’t know what “Flouncy” means, neither do I want to know, Ittisa)
Sister Bear: Pointed it out before as well. See my point above.
There dressing like zona’s.
No, missme, don’t hold back. Tell us what you really think….
:: rolleyes ::
The Wolf
-While you are correct in your statement -many poskim did assur shaitels altogether.
And, interesting enough, there are some portions of our community where ONLY a sheitel is accepted. Lubavitch comes to mind.
The Wolf
The interesting thing about the dybbuk story, is that the original fable about the dybbuk was about it entering a girl who was very much a tznuah, as I was told the story.
“Your contradicting yourself here.”
You are right (GASP!), because I was unclear in my statement. I believe strongly that Hashem gave us the laws to follow as HE explained them to Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai. I believe His intent/command to us was to keep us holy. I also know He gave permission to our chachomim to enact gedarim, gedarim that THEY believe will ULTIMATELY fulfill His intent (though some of them may take an extreme and overly-cautious view in some regards), by keeping us away from things Hashem did not necessarily asser on us, but which they nonetheless (rightly)may have feared could potentially lead us astray.
It might not have been Hashem’s own intent regarding those issues (i.e. Hashem does not really care if a dress is black or green, or purple), but He gave the chachomim the right to pasken and interpret the halachos with the additional gedarim, to help preserve the holiness of Hashem’s original intention, which is to keep us a holy nation. But there is a wide latitude within the frum continuum, and not all rabbonim view all issues the same way, hence we have shivim panim l’Torah, all of them there to help fulfill Hashem’s intent, and none of them in 100% agreement.
…hence we have shivim panim l’Torah, all of them there to help fulfill Hashem’s intent, and none of them in 100% agreement.
Well the Conservatives’ also claim they are fulfilling Hashem’s intent. How does an individual know if he is doing Hashem’s will and following the right derech?
The answer is what is the end outcome of following a certain derech? It doesn’t davka mean that those who appear to be the most frummest cannot be the most krummest. For example the neturei karta appear very frum and yet they are in cohorts with our enemies regarding our enemies intention of ruling over E”Y at all costs and that can c”v be disasterous. However in their blindness, they convince themselves that they are doing Hashem’s will while they are not.
In all the cases, the end outcome is the key to knowing if one is on the correct path. Same is when following a derech that always repeats the mantra of “where does it say, where does it say, where does it say. “
There was a gate around har Sinai that symbolized that the Torah needs gedarim so that we will not violate the law. But there are “shittos” that feel there is no need for the gedarim. Minimum of what is required they will fulfill. So therefore we have trespassing of halacha.
oomis AND SJS, threfore, we have women that are only focused on where does it say that a woman has to do this or that. That’s why we can have women who see no wrong in bright clothing because if everyone will do it, it will be accepted, wearing shiny metallic shoes, if done by the whole oilim goilim can be accepted, etc.
But the ENTIRE DEFINITION OF WHAT TZNIUS IS, busha, hidden, basheiden is being trampled upon.
All in the name of “we don’t need chumros” because “we follow a different shittoh”.
But the ENTIRE DEFINITION OF WHAT TZNIUS IS, busha, hidden, basheiden is being trampled upon.
I find it very telling that your primary definition of tznius… the “first word that comes to your mind,” if you will, is shame.
Suffice it to say that it wouldn’t be my first choice.
The Wolf
Conclusion: Women should dress in brown homespun gowns with turtlenecks, long sleeves, 70 denier minimum stockings and a snood.
No one, in any way shape or form, implied that that should be the case. Why are you deliberately miscontstruing what I said?
What is so hard to understand that tznius that the exact definition of tznius means modest? It doesn’t mean showy and it doesn’t mean ugly either.
Shiny metallic, for example shiny gold shoes ARE SHOWY(unless perhaps if one is colorblind).
A women who is betznius would NOT wear shiny gold or silver shoes. And you know what, there are beautiful, refined shoes that look better than cheapy looking shoes. For example, a toned down pewter or bronze shoe is absolutely beautiful (in my opinion, anyway). It is not shiny and showy, but in the right hue, is beautiful and refined.
BS”D
“How does an individual know if he is doing Hashem’s will and following the right derech?”
The ONLY answer to this question is to have a Rov.
Because your Rov has his rebbe who he learned from, and got his Derech, learned his halachos, and got his Torah-True hashkafos.
Just because the Rov is more “Chilled” then another who is ????? ??? (Fire and Brimstone), doesn’t make that Rov less worthy of being followed. And if he says something is Mutar, then there is no reason not to follow it. Saying “I know better then my Rov, I will be Machmir” says “I don’t believe in the Mesorah, I want to be “Ish HaYashar B’Yeinav Ya’asee””.
It takes a real Rov to be Matier.
P.S. The Chassidish (really Hungarian/Satmer) Mehalech (in general, Clearheaded!) is more Machmir regarding Tznius. This is NOT halacha Pesuka, but none the less should be applauded (within reason).
Also looking for response to post to Clearheaded above.
Wolf, there is busha and there is busha. Busha can mean shame. But in a different way, every woman inherently has a sense of busha that is actually a wonderfull trait Hashem has given women to help them instinctively understand that they need to be modest, not brazen.
Unfortunately, in this day and age that busha has gone out the window. The more brazen one is, especially regarding relationships with the other gender, is admired by the goyim. It’s true that we are not there yet, but the brazeness that some frum women possess, the way they display there bodies for all the world to see, there lack of shame, only leads the generations to fall lower.
When Jewish women, the foundation of her family cheapens herself, it drags the whole family and future generations down with her.
Wolf, there is busha and there is busha. Busha can mean shame. But in a different way, every woman inherently has a sense of busha that is actually a wonderfull trait Hashem has given women to help them instinctively understand that they need to be modest, not brazen.
No, I disagree. Busha means shame and is almost always used negatively. The English word I believe you’re looking for is “propriety.” But it doesn’t really matter — I don’t want to get into a pointless language argument.
The Wolf
When Jewish women, the foundation of her family cheapens herself, it drags the whole family and future generations down with her.
Why limit to women? The same thing could be said for men.
The Wolf
I find it very telling that your primary definition of tznius… the “first word that comes to your mind,” if you will, is shame.
Busha means shame and is almost always used negatively.
Tznius and Busha are two distinct middos. The poster made an error by defining one using the other. Both middos have a positive connotation, and when possessed in tandem enable one to achieve the pinnacle of Modesty.
Busha indeed refers to shame, or rather bashfulness, and is considered the mark of a G-d fearing person. It is busha that provides a person with the incentive not to sin. This idea is found in many seforim, not the least of which (for the sake of Mod80) is R’ Miller zt”l.
Health, as I said, I will IY”H discuss the Sugya of Sheitels (The Matirim and Osrim) in great length. We will see that those who permitted, permitted even skin tops etc. and those who forbade, prohibited even tapered synthetic wigs with an extra covering for that matter. The issue of long and bouncy wigs has nothing to do with the Halachos of Sheitels rather with Tznius (same issue with hair of a Penuah). There is a debate in the Poskim about that too.
These Halachos are very twisty, detailed and lengthy discussions. I was thinking about posting just a summary but decided against it. I need significant amount of time and it’ll come (under a new post).
“And, interesting enough, there are some portions of our community where ONLY a sheitel is accepted. Lubavitch comes to mind.”
I find this interesting because our community Chabad rabbi and his family live across the street. His wife always wears a sheitle to shule, yes, but I have seen her shopping and out in the community and there were times she was wearing a snood. Maybe it’s different because this is E”Y. And of course, being male, I would never ask her why.
squeak, you are right. I like your post.
And Wolf you are right too regarding tznius not being the same as busha.
Okay, tznius does not mean busha. Tznius means modest.
But busha can be a positive trait as well. Sorry I don’t rember the source but the Yidden as a nation are called beyshunim (provided we don’t bury that under layers of brazeness).
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