Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel

Helpful: Why don’t you give a shiur?

I will try to attend (if it is in my area).

Rescue, what do you ”need” to know that matirs seeing pritzus in the Post or News??

Far far better to be uninformed of the ”news”, than to chas v’shalom encounter even ONE instance of the terrible pritzus rampant in the newspapers.

Helpful:

When are you going to give that shiur?

Or do you just like telling anonymous people that what they do is assur, which will create no changes (I estimate you as an 18 year old girl straight out of sem, perhaps Missme? Just judging by how you write and what you are saying).

If you really are older and you really want to do something about this real problem, go ahead. Shmoozing about it here is just not going to cut it.

Good luck.

WIY: Even the WSJ got much worse of late.

G_A_W: All your assumptions are mistaken.

WIY, I agree with you that secular newspapers or magazines are sources of tumah. THEY ARE TUMAH. Who would want to bring tumah into their house?

While I’m not going to say as a fact that the internet is kosher as it was assured by Rabbonim, but there are choices out there. For example I’m not even totaly connected to the internet but I am on a network that allows me EXTREMELY limited internet access. People can have filters in addition to making the right choices of what sites to visit.

However, goyishe literature is saturated with shmutz and there’s no dodging it. It’s right in front of you. If someone wants to be updated on the news, besides for reading the Hamodia daily, they can listen to the news on radio.

philosopher:

What strata are you trying to connect to?

It seems to me (from where I notice) that the problem is not with teens, or older women, but with married women in their 20’s and 30’s. Any ideas why?

gavra –

the problem is with both. teens and young woman. sometimes from the way they dress you’d think they don’t want to be married – they try so hard to dress like young teens.

GAW – I think I can explain the young married women thing.

They are finally free. They make their own decisions. No more mother or teacher breathing down their neck. So when they go shopping and the skirt is borderline – its ok, because they’ll be careful. Or, they’ll wear tights so you can’t really tell. Etc, etc, etc. And everyone else is doing it, so its not really wrong…

I’m not judging them, my level of tznius could use a boost. I understand the draw though.

“Far far better to be uninformed of the ”news”, than to chas v’shalom encounter even ONE instance of the terrible pritzus rampant in the newspapers. “

Helpful, no one forces you to read about pritzus. Presumably, you are a frum person who is intelligent enough to recognize a headline that seems inappropriate. So go on to the next page. I don’t read everything in every paper. I am not interested in the Hollywood actresses who might as well be zonas. But I AM interested in knowing which of my politicians are untrustworthy because they cannot even be faithful to their spouses, and which push agendas of toeiva, and which are dedicated to supporting E”Y, and so forth. Most of that does not appear in Jewish papers, for obvious reasons.

When a rabbi is accused of molesting a child, until recent years you would not see such stuff printed in a Jewish paper, either. And unfortunately, R”L this is something we need to know about. We need to know what goyim are saying about us, and hiding our heads in the sand (or Jewish-only papers), prevents us from knowing what they are really thinking. Not everyone is able to catch a hypocrite in the White House Press Corps, while shooting a Jewish video.

What strata are you trying to connect to?

It seems to me (from where I notice) that the problem is not with teens, or older women, but with married women in their 20’s and 30’s. Any ideas why?

gavra, I’ve seen enough older girls that go with tight clothing and skirts that cover the knee to the millimeter and the minute they sit, climb stairs or get into cars not only their knee gets uncovered, but part of their thigh as well, which is totaly ossur.

But come to think of it, I have seen many more young married women dress indecent and it could very well be that as SJS said once they get married and are free to do as pleased.

Therefore chinuch that instills in young children and young girls the WILL to be a tznua is vital, it becomes part of them.

WIY, you are sort of right and sort of wrong. While yes, if its not tzanua, then it isn’t, but according to many poskim, if the bottom part of your knee shows, its not really erva. So if someone wears a skirt that fully covers in 95% of situations, and brushes up a little for the other 5%, its not untzanua, but its not really tzanua. Do you understand the distinction?

This problem stems from somewhere. Here is how it can easily escalate.

Scenario:

A young, frum couple (let’s say relatively with-it) live in a neighborhood with several others in their age group and their ‘type’. The wife dresses well. She is stylish, her skirts are just below the knee, fitted and her jewelry and shaitel are always well-chosen. Some might call her trendy.

She’s friendly with another woman, about her age and type. Her friend is also a stylish dresser. Her shoes always match and she wears cute tops. This friend isn’t as slim or pretty, though.

When they chat, sometimes their husbands are with them. The two men talk mostly to each other but might exchange a word or two (to be polite) with the women.

Woman B (the second one) is concerned. What is she worried about? That maybe her husband doesn’t find HER as attractive as she believes her friend is. If these friends hang around each other more, and they invite eachother over for shalosh seudos or a barbecue, Woman B becomes increasingly worried that compared to her friend, she’s less attractive in her husband’s eyes. This might be a total illusion. But this will easily compel her to dress at least as ‘sharp’ as her friend in an effort to maintain her position as an ‘attractive’ woman.

Think about it – it’s all very subconscious, but Woman B can’t afford to ‘tone things down’ with the makeup, the slimming tighter skirt and Lycra top. Her very marriage is at stake. This is what she believes.

What about the men? Honestly, I don’t know how the men can allow their wives to carry on like this, but peer pressure is powerful.

Don’t think that because I’m not wearing short skirts and tighter tops (yes, they are more slimming) that it’s not hard for me. I would like to. But, b’H my husband actually tells me if something is too short or tight. He’s really normal, but he knows how he wants his wife out in the streets. No one needs to know your measurements, ladies.

The Bnos Melochim concept also puts an obligation on men to be good and diligent providers.

payingatt: Why are couples socializing to begin with?

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Does any of these ring a bell? Hellooooo!!!

Wolf, so why can’t I call newspaper tumah as in a noun form?

I call the newspaper itself tumah.

How would you call an idol, for example. Can I say an idol is tumah or do I say it is tamei?

Now you’re conflating two different concepts.

In the legal, halachic sense, a newspaper or an idol may not be tamei at all. It depends if it contracted tumah from an external source. There is nothing about an idol or a newspaper that, intrinsically, makes it tamei in the strict halachic sense.

However, you’re using “tumah” in more of a hashkafic sense, to mean improper and something you wouldn’t want to be around. In that respect, I suppose anything can be tamei.

Nonetheless, to get back to your point… items aren’t tumah. Tumah isn’t something you can touch or feel. It’s a spiritual, halachic and legal construct that is the “contamination” (yes, it’s a terrible translation, but I don’t have a better word off the top of my head) that “contaminates” various items, foods and peoples.

As such, an idol is not tumah. Nothing can be “tumah.” It’s may be tamei and a source of tumah.

If I need to say an idol is tamei and not tumah, then I think we can say inanimate objects are not tumah, but rather they are tamei, they transmit tumah.

That’s almost 100% correct. The only minor point is that some items may, in fact, be tamei but not able to trasmit tumah. But aside from that minor point, you’re 100% correct there.

As far as I know a mes is tumah and a Jew can be tumah as well (and if my recollection serves me well, so can a shoretz).

NO NO NO NO NO.

A dead body is TAMEI. It is a source of TUMAH.

A person can become TAMEI. He can also be a source of further TUMAH, but he is not TUMAH.

A dead sheretz can be TAMEI (depending on the species). It can be a source of TUMAH, but it is not TUMAH.

Again, “TUMAH” is strictly a spiritual construct. It cannot be touched.

Oh and thanks for giving me permision to carry on.

You don’t need my permission. It’s just an expression.

The Wolf

Wolf, thanks so much for your clarification. I really appreciate it.

However, you’re using “tumah” in more of a hashkafic sense, to mean improper and something you wouldn’t want to be around. In that respect, I suppose anything can be tamei.

Do you think the Hamodia can also be called tamei?

You don’t need my permission. It’s just an expression.

I know, I know. I was just kidding there. (Though I was not joking with my last comment in that post).

SJS, as the thigh is definitely ervah, and since most humans, women included have their thighs connected to their knees, and since the knee itself is not one foot long (12″), but a mere 2″ or so, there is no way the knee can get uncovered and you can’t see part of the thigh. You might wish it’s not so, you might wish it’s invisivable for all men, but it’s not.

A skirt that doesn’t completely cover the knee while sitting or getting into a car automatically reveals part of the lower thigh as well.

That’s why we don’t do everything according to the letter of the law. We do MORE than the letter of the law. We make gedarim so that we cannot cross the boundries and come to violate the law itself.

“A person can become TAMEI. He can also be a source of further TUMAH, but he is not TUMAH.”

There is an interesting issue at play here, namely that of semantics and misuse of language. We see that often in the CR, and elsewhere everytime some refers to an object as a tznius this or that. The word tznius means one thing – modesty. You cannot have a modesty person (i.e. she is not tznius), but you can have an item that is tzanua (she is a tznuah or tzniusDIG person). This happens to be a pet peeve of mine, and I know it is a naarishkeit that this bothers me as much as it does, butthe truth is I see the same thing in the tumah reference. People are not tumah. TUMAH is Tumah. People can be a source for it (if dead), but they are not intrinsically “tumah.” AS the Torah teaches us over and over again, each word has a meaning, and the use of words should always be very clear, precise, and correct. Changing a word or using it grammatically incorrectly can change the meaning of a posuk completely. It also tends to be the product of exaggeration when we see it here, such as in the reference to tumah.

Or do you have a different opinion of what the hashkafa of a frum Yid ahould be?

Again, keep in mind that I don’t read HaModia and therefore don’t have anything on which to form an opinion other than hearsay. That being said, I don’t know if the HaModia has articles that are “indecent” and “immoral.”

That being said, I know that I have my hashkafos. OTOH, there are others who legitimately have different hashkafos than I do. My hashakafah and the hashkafah of the editors of the Yated, for example, differ greatly. Nonetheless, while I may have my differences with them and even disagree vocally (or as vocal as you can get on a blog) with them, I would never say that the Yated is Tamei or doesn’t belong in a Jewish home. The same goes for any other number of Jewish publications.

The Wolf

EDITED

Please stop looking, in order to better the world you must first better yourself…

msseeker –

Money talks!

We should all maybe stop focusing on women’s dresses and leave that to our community leaders. Instead, we should all focus on keeping ourselves tzniyus, especially in speech,(ie in the YWN coffee room) so that we may become closer to the One Above…

just don’t forget – for all those “heimish newspaper” readers (hamodia, yated, mishpacha… bina) they are written by frum yidden, HOWEVER EVERYTHING MUST be taken with a grain of salt. They change a lot of things to make them more interesting. I know of a first hand story that happened to someone who were very close with. One of these magazine/newspapers interviewed and wrote an article about it, and for some reason some VERY SIMPLE and straight forward facts got turned into a whole drama. Hashkafa wise too – Just remember these are not gedolim and talmiday chachamim writing and editing everything.

mssekeer-come on. Its true i do see many wigs that are not tzniyus, but i really don’t see anything wrong with this one. It looks a little longer than shoulder length and its not “blowing in the wind” as you say. The bottoms are a little puffy-because its not straight, but i wouldn’t call it “flouncy”. Pick and choose your arguments-this is not the bad ones. Halevai e/o should wear this than the ones that are really long and flouncy!