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I don’t believe in shouting rasha. Let’s remember when we discuss issues we are automatically judging a situation. It doesn’t mean we think of others as bad people.
Philosopher:
Im not judging those people who dont wear jackets. I just was wondering why theres a laxity. I dont think these people are bad chas veshalom. In fact many really nice and good people are doing it and I was wondering what the deal is and why people arent makpid on this.
Wolf, I’m with you. You can choose to see the glass as half full or half empty and you can look at a person for the potential within or for what they can still accomplish rather than for what they have not accomplished yet. You can surround a person with positive energy and guide through example or you can discourage someone with the power of negativity and criticism.
WIY, That’s exactly what I mean! When we are talking about tznius issues we are essentially saying the same thing as In fact many really nice and good people are doing it and I was wondering what the deal is and why people arent makpid on this.
Only because tznius is ESSENTIAL to Yiddishkeit and wearing a hat and jacket is not, there is more of a stronger emphasis on the need for frum women to dress btznius. That’s all there is to it. Nobody is saying and I can’t say what others think but I don’t think, that pritzusdige women are not nice and good.
philosopher
its okay to judge people. the main use of seichel is in the process of judging. judging what is right and what is wrong. in ourselves and in others. judgment is necessary and one of the highest functions of a Yid.
*acting* properly according to Torah on ones judgments is equally important however.
you of course know this, im just stating the obvious to those who continually criticize you for this.
If you pour into an empty glass, halfway, it is half full
if you empty out a full glass, halfway, it is half empty
Moderator-80, thank you, thank you. I don’t understand why I’m being judged for something which should be self understood for every frum Yid.
If you pour into an empty glass, halfway, it is half full
if you empty out a full glass, halfway, it is half empty
Old joke:
Suppose the glass is filled halfway with arsenic. *Now* how does the optimist see it?
The Wolf
And what really gets me is those that judge me for judging between right and wrong judge others for different actions! It’s so hypocritical!
WIY, I’m not talking about you because we cleared that up and if it would only be you I wouldn’t mention it.
speaking about judging i once heard that if something someone else is doing really bothers you, it’s a reflection of what you have to fix in yourself. I think that’s a beautiful way to turn around being judgmental. after all , none of us are perfect, were all here to work on ourselves
I just received this email. I know its not about Tznius but it is written so beautiful to remind us to look what is in the person:
Clay Balls
A man was exploring caves by the Seashore. In one of the caves he found a canvas bag with a bunch of hardened clay balls. It was like someone had rolled clay balls and left them out in the sun to bake. They didn’t look like much, but they intrigued the man, so he took the bag out of the cave with him. As he strolled along the beach, he would throw the clay balls one at a time out into the ocean as far as he could.
He thought little about it, until he dropped one of the clay balls and it cracked open on a rock . Inside was a beautiful, precious stone!
Excited, the man started breaking open the remaining clay balls. Each contained a similar treasure. He found thousands of dollars worth of jewels in the 20 or so clay balls he had left.
Then it struck him. He had been on the beach a long time. He had thrown maybe 50 or 60 of the clay balls with their hidden treasure into the ocean waves. Instead of thousands of dollars in treasure, he could have taken home tens of thousands, but he had just thrown it away!
It’s like that with people. We look at someone, maybe even ourselves, and we see the external clay vessel. It doesn’t look like much from the outside. It isn’t always beautiful or sparkling, so we discount it.
We see that person as less important than someone more beautiful or stylish or well known or wealthy. But we have not taken the time to find the treasure hidden inside that person.
There is a treasure in each and every one of us. If we take the time to get to know that person, and if we ask God to show us that person the way He sees them, then the clay begins to peel away and the brilliant gem begins to shine forth.
May we not come to the end of our lives and find out that we have thrown away a fortune in friendships because the gems were hidden in bits of clay. May we see the people in our world as G-d sees them.
I am so blessed by the gems of friendship I have with you. Thank you for looking beyond my clay vessel.
APPRECIATE EVERY SINGLE
THING YOU HAVE, ESPECIALLY YOUR FRIENDS!
LIFE IS TOO SHORT AND FRIENDS ARE TOO FEW!
Pass this on to another Clay Ball!!!
Moderator, the question is, if you come upon the glass and you are viewing it just the way it is not having done the pouring or the emptying do YOU see it as half full or half empty?
The Optimist will view it as half full; the Pessimist will view it as have empty.
Be Happy, that is such an amazing Mashal! Thank you.
i know aries, thanks, it was sort of a joke
The Optimist will view it as half full; the Pessimist will view it as have empty.
The existentialist will debate whether the glass is even there.
The Wolf
i also heard that sof
Optimist- the glass is half full.
pessimist- the glass is half empty.
fatalist-the water will evaporate.
existentialist- the glass is.
feminist- all glasses are equal.
narcissist-look at me in the water!
polygamist-the more glasses the merrier.
evangelist-the glass must repent.
socialist-share the glass.
capitalist-sell the glass.
anarchist- break the glass.
psychologist- How does the water feel about the glass?
Some people who think of themselves as optimists should look over their posts to see if what they write is consistent with how they think of themselves regarding seeing only the good in others.
If they feel that they are judging things that need to be discussed so they can be corrected which is the point of airing out thoughts in the CR, then they can’t jump on others with snide remarks when the others are judging situations and they don’t agree with their opinions.
One can counter opinions and disagree, that’s the point of a good argument so all angles can be explored, but one cannot attack the others right to judge.
WIY, that’s really cute.
Wellinformed-this is completely off topic but this reminds me of what you werote.
When a panel of doctors was asked
to vote on adding a new wing to
their hospital, the Allergists voted to
scratch it and the Dermatologists
advised no rash moves.
The Gastroenterologists had a gut
feeling about it, but the Neurologists
thought the administration had a lot
of nerve; the Obstetricians stated
that they were all laboring under a
mis-conception.
The Ophthalmologists considered
the idea short-sighted; the
The Psychiatrists thought the whole
idea was madness; the Surgeons
decided to wash their hands of the
whole thing, and the Radiologists
could see right through it!
The Internists thought it was a bitter
pill to swallow. The Plastic Surgeons
The Podiatrists thought it was a step
forward, but the Urologists felt the
The Anesthesiologists
thought the whole idea
was a gas, and
the Cardiologists
have the
heart to say
no.
Some people who think of themselves as optimists should look over their posts to see if what they write is consistent with how they think of themselves regarding seeing only the good in others.
Ouch. Trying to parse that made my head hurt… and I still didn’t succeed.
The Wolf
blinky thats pretty funny.
Wolf, Don’t try too hard, I didn’t mean you.
I have been pondering this topic post for some time now and I was thinking, at the core of it, why is Tznius really so problematic today. Why are women dressing this way?
Now some would say that its because the styles that are being sold and promoted in clothing stores. However the truth is that these styles can be tailored to be more Tzniusdig, additionally, why are the Jewish stores selling these styles to begin with? Why is there a Jewish market for it?
What lies at the root of the problem in my opinion is an influence from the goyim and a desire to be like them whether consciously or subconsciously through social conditioning. I think that we have allowed goyish society to take root amongst us in a very major way. What do I refer to?
Many frum people who consider themselves very frum read non the new york post, daily news and other shmutz papers. Many have these papers and shmutz magazines delivered to their houses. They also read non Jewish novels all of which have a number of pages dedicated to the very detailed portrayal of steamy love scenes. Its nauseating.
What you look at and read has a powerful hashpaah on how you think and on your sensitivities and priorities. If you take in the goyish ideas, over time you just begin to want it and you dont even realize it, you just think that thats normal. You dont realize that the idea was implanted in your mind from the 1000s of prust newspapers and magazines you read.
Then theres the worse influence of TV and movies. But you will say most frum people dont have tv?! Well today you dont need one. You can download or rent any Tv show or movie directly from the internet. You can have movies delivered to your home…When you watch movie after movie it breaks down your spiritual awareness. You start to want to be like the goy and start to think what you saw on the tv show and movie is normal. Consciously or subconsciously you want to start being “cool” and stylish like the goyim you see on the screen. The women see how the men all obsess over women in these tv shows and movies and its all about sex and prustkiet. Instead of it disgusting us we start to think that yes this is normal this is how it should be and women start wanting to look “hot” so that men will lust after them and look and admire them for their beauty.
This all comes from the goyish media that many people allow into their homes. If you think it doesnt have an effect on you, you are foolish and in major denial. There have been plenty of studies that rape and violence has gone up in society due to the things that people see on tv and movies. What you watch and read has a huge effect on you.
A Jew should get all his ideas from Torah sources. The more we allow non Jewish media into our homes, the more our hearts and minds will want to be like the goyim.
If you want the Pritzus problem to go away, get the goyish influence out of our lives. I could be wrong but my mind tells me that there is not one girl who dresses untzniusdig that never watched a movie or doesnt read non jewish magazines or doesnt listen to non Jewish music. The yetzer horah to be untznius doesnt come to a pure girl who watches her eyes and ears.
well informed Yid
100% no question you are correct
well informed yid – i agree 100% to the begining of your post that it stems from a desire to be like the goyim. However, i truly beg your pardon but – MANY MANY MANy frum homes DO NOT allow any goyish books, magazines, newspapers etc into their homes yet their daughters still have such a deep desire to be “with it ” Stylish, and many times NOT in a tzniusdike fashion. it’s simply because we live in golus, and whether we like it or not we are effected by the society around us.
Really this is the route of tznius which many have already posted. That I am different, i am a bas melech, i am royalty why should i care what the “peasants” (goyim) dress like. I’ve already said this once here i think but its worth repeating. Once of the speakers on bnos melachim said it so well, the story with Queen Elizabeth and her visitor was wearing the same thing as her and felt so embarrassed, she apologized profusely and the queens response was something like “the queen doesn’t look at/care what others wear” i don’t remember the exact wording but something to that effect. If we instilled in our daughters a DEEP DEEP sense of pride that we are royalty – its really the shoresh cuz no one can imagine a real royal person dressing in an undignified way.
WIY, I totaly agree with you as well.
but – MANY MANY MANy frum homes DO NOT allow any goyish books, magazines, newspapers etc into their homes yet their daughters still have such a deep desire to be “with it “
how many of their friends do absorb the goysih media, and how many of their relatives, and their schoolmates and everyone else they see.
it’s a general problem of a goyish environment. it pervades everywhere and impurifies with contact, and is absorbed by osmosis. this is golus.
we have to free ourselves from it as well as we can.
mod 80 – i am talking from experience, non of the kids im speaking about have freinds who ARE exposed to the media, newspaper and goyish books. Its almost in the “avira” (english speakers- atmosphere) of america. The culture just seeps into us unfortunately. And now tisha beav is coming, lets try to really chap how much we are in golus.
yes i know
It’s very convienient to blame everything on the goyish environment, but that is a bunch of hullabaloo. The pasuk says “or lagoyin n’saticha” yidden were never meant to live in a ghetto. Most of everything that his heals so near and dear to what is called the mesorah nowadays has goyish influence in it. Black hats are from a style generally disabanded by goyim now,. Streimels were modeled after nobility hats. Plenty of foods have very similar goyish counterparts. Scotch, beer and other alchaholic drinks are goyish. I will admit that we may use some of the things in a better way, but it doesn’t negate the fact that they are goyish. If all the issues that are causing everyone palpitations along with hashkafah were taught in schools in a proper manner these issues could be less. But as the educational system is set up now, kids are taught it’s assur. doesn’t matter what the question is or that there may be cholkim, it’s assur. Kids are not taught reasons, including historical, behind certain minhagim and chumrahs. So if a kid is bombarded all day with it being assur and you’re a shaigetz if you do it, they start loosing faith and say I’m a shaigetz cause I do x, y or z so why should I bother, or everybidy else is doing it and they get honored by all the tzedakas for there wonderful help, so it must not be so assur. There is a generation or more of hypocritical kids, and it’s not getting better.
Why is page 14 blank?
I’m not biting
rescue
i beg your pardon, why were klal yisroel commanded and warn again and again to kill out ALL the goyim in E”Y before settling ? not exact quate “so that you won’t learn from their bad ways… their avoda zara etc. ” yes a lot of things we have are from the goyish culture. but note : today no one wears black hats, its used to differentiate ourselves. “shelo shinu es malbusham” i’ve never seen a guy in a streimel. and hate to break it to you, but think of it, what would you think if you were a goy when you see a man walking with a fur hat in 90-100 degree sweltering humid whether?
culture is definitely not ALL the problem but it is a big chunk. AND don’t forget – even the goyim have gotten lower and worse thereby effecting us too.
Sof,
black hats did not start out intending to differentiate ourselves, we just haven’t chnaged our way of dress from the 40’s. If you want to see a goy in a streimel look at old pictures, that hat won’t be exactly like streimels worn nowadays, but gues what, neither will the streimels from the old pictures. When yidden live in E”Y they are meant to be secluded, but guess what, we’re not in E”Y we’re in galus. There is no doubt that the culture affects us, but that does not mean it is to blame.
The tradition was to wear a hat. Which particular hat wasn’t all that important, and it varied as to what was available during whatever time.
Yidden have secluded themselves from goyish culture due to the terrible negative influences that goes hand in hand with it.
actually, the tradition was to wear a head covering. Yidden were secluded from goyish coulture in the previous few hundred years due to goyim forcing seclusion. Since the time of the churban yidden have lived with goyim and in times held high positions within governments. If yidden were so secluded, why would there be discussions in the gemarah on how to build an eruv whe a goy owns a house in the chatzer, asking a goy to do melacha on shabbos etc. This seclusion is an outcrop from the dark ages when it was thought the jews had heebie geebies. It also didn’t help that every few decades they goyim decided to go on a jewish killing spree.
If kids were actuially taught the halacha and the beauty in it, some problems would disapear by themselves. If someone is mechalel shabbos, yelling in the street shaigetz does not help. If the person is taught hilchos shabbos and the rationale behind them (not because g-d said so) there is a infintestinal better chance of seeing the behavior change.
rescue37:
You missed my point totally. Nobody says a Jew has to seclude themselves from the world at large. My point was that even though we live in the non Jewish society, and we go to work, and we have every right to know the news, it should end there.
There has never been a heter and there never will be a heter to read filthy newspapers like the NY Post and others. If a Yid wants the news he can go to a Jewish website or read one of the Jewish papers. You get all the relevant news in that manner.
However there is no heter to bring non Jewish newspapers, magazines, novels, tv shows, movies and music into your homes. The non Jewish media and entertainment industry was made for them and it is theirs. If we pollute our homes, eyes and ears with their shmuts it will eat away at our neshomos and lower our standards. It is cristal clear to me that the non Jewish entertainment is what has eroded our senses and brought many of us down in all areas of yiddishkiet. If you listen to how someone talks or watch someones mode of dress or conduct you can pretty quickly figure out if this person is exposed to non Jewish shmutz entertainment.
The Torah warns us in many places not to follow the practices of the goyim and not to go in their ways. It should be pashut to any frum Jew that bringing in non Jewish entertainment into the home is a recipe for disaster.
Anything we cant do in the Torah is all things that the goy does and is allowed to do. The only way to do that is to guard ourselves by not letting these harmful influences in.
I will add that for men there is certainly no heter for reading non Jewish magazines, newspapers or novels because of looking at lewd pictures of women as well as reading things that arouse ones Tayvos. Movies are clearly assur because its assur to look at female nudity as well as stam looking at any woman who isnt your wife, as well as the issur of looking at Reshayim which is pretty much the case of every actor. They are for the most part the lowest of the low.
Obviously there will be other things required and one has to have a good understanding of Yiddishkiet. However there are plenty of people who learned in the best schools and they know plenty about Yiddishkiet and they still dont live properly and its all because they cant let go of the goys entertainment.
First ??? ??? then ???? ???
“shelo shinu es malbusham” i’ve never seen a guy in a streimel.
You are aware that a shtreimel was originated by the Polish aristocracy, right?
The Wolf
WIY, you are aware, that the internet was assured too, right?
I think that most people are truly unaware of the sources for what we take for granted as so-called “frum” dress today. ALL of it derives from the goyim. If we wanted to stay true to the avos and emahos, we would still be wearing long robes and sandals.
You are aware that a shtreimel was originated by the Polish aristocracy, right?
My husband still has the shtreimel but he doesn’t have his white horse and bejeweled sword, I don’t have jewels that dazzle and maids that wait at my beck and call and we don’t live in a castle.
aries2756:
The internet can be used for good and there are filters. I personally have learned a lot of Torah thanks to the internet by watching shiurim and downloading many shiurim and reading divrei Torah on various websites. I wont say that a person doesnt have to be careful on the net, however if a person is careful I see no problem with it.
On the other hand non Jewish media and entertainment theres no good at all. The only options are bad, and terrible.
I wish there was a solution to the Pritzus Crisis. It would alleviate so many other problem in the klal too.
Oomis, I do my best! I wear sandals as long as the weather allows (so April to October)
WIY, I’m just saying that just as YOU choose to use the Internet only for good and YOU choose which sites to go to and which ones not to go to. Other people read the newspaper and read only what they deem proper and they don’t look at nor read what they deem is not proper.
According to many poskim the computer and internet is as treif as you feel the newspapers are. So it is a matter of opinion, judgment and point of view. As determined as YOU are in your own opinion, so too are those Rabbonim who assur what we are doing right now. So where does it stop? At what level? Who is right and who is wrong? Who judges? You are as sure as you are that you are right as is everyone else here.. The Rabbonim that assur us are quite sure that they are right. We can ALL be judged and anyone can find fault in anyone of us if they choose to look.
OR on this day of Tisha B’av we can choose to have Ahavas Yisroel and stop judging and looking to judge our fellow Jews.
There are heteirim by chareidi rabbonim for whatever reasons to use the net. There arent any such heteirim for the NY Post or Daily News.
Helpful:
Thank you thats what I was going to say to aries. Theres no heter to read any non Jewish newspapers or magazines bizman hazeh. They all contain filth and pritzus pictures additionally, we have so many Jewish newspapers today theres no excuse left to read a non Jewish paper.
“Oomis, I do my best! I wear sandals as long as the weather allows (so April to October)”
LOL, gam ani.
Anyone have constructive suggestions how we can reduce the terrible pritzus crisis in our communities, which has become our dor’s perhaps greatest nisoyon?
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