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“Unfortunately smells, both good and bad cannot be avoided. Sights can.”
Sights can NOT always be avoided. People need to look ahead sometimes, to see where they are going. And by doing so they often inadvertently see things they do not want to. Once they saw, all the gates of hell can break loose, if you know what I mean.
And whilst its true we are on golus and cannot control the prutzas surrounding us, there is no excuse to add to them with our own.
oomis –
Whatever.
Can we let this down for the duration of the nine days so that the satan won’t have some more information to be mikatreg on us with?
Most of the posts here are discussing problems in the communities and since they’re not all constructive maybe we can wait until after tisha b’av to continue discussing these issues and for the meantime discuss positive or constructive things that will help the saneyger.
Rosh Chodesh already started here and we all know the nine days is a dangerous time. Let’s take a few days to clean up and be positive and in that zchus we can bring the geulah faster.
Missme is right. There seems to be a woeful inadequacy in the guys’ dept on kedusha and shmiras einayim, while in the veiber-shul a huge tikun in tznius is needed. And they’re not mutually exclusive. In fact it’s more like ?? ??? ????. Rabbonim and schools must make it a priority if we’re to see any improvement.
Tam Mahu Omer,
While there was certainly a decline in observance in American, it was far less than 99% who stopped keeping kosher, and far less than 80% married non-Jews. And we forget that before WW2, Jews were going off the derech in droves even in Europe.
Derech HaMelech, you just proved my point. “Can we let this down for the duration of the nine days so that the satan won’t have some more information to be mikatreg on us with?” Sounds like an excellent piece of advice from the satan himself. What makes you think H’ has less tzaar from pritzus than from listening to his children trying to inspire each other to improve? Please look up Yeshaye gimel, where you’ll find a list of goodies that brought the churban: eye shadow, wigs, perfume etc.
????? ?’ ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ???’
(BTW, the expression “gee” should really not be used by a frum Yid. It is derived from the English name of Oso Ish, and is used by the non-Jews as a way of cursing without saying his whole name. That is how it came into common usage. Just FYI.)
So, when discussing acceleration of rockets, I shouldn’t say that the acceleration has the effect of 10g? 🙂
The Wolf
msseeker
There were two churbans and the second was from sinas chinam. My point was not to detract from the inspiration. But rather as I said that many of the posts are just not constructive they seem more accusatory.
Instead, maybe it would be a nice idea to start a thread on how to be marbeh tznius and taharas eynayim in klal Yisrael.
Why reinvent the wheel? This is the thread you’re looking for and I gave several suggestions on how to be marbeh tznius and taharas eynayim in klal Yisrael.
#1: MAKE THIS A PRIORITY. Don’t push it under the rug because it’s the nine days and similar excuses. Never hold up a less-than-tzniusdik woman or girl as a role model, no matter how good she’s “inside”. Tznius is an “outside” mitzva just like talis and teffilin.
#2: RAISE YOUR STANDARDS. Bare-bones yiddishkeit is not good enough. ??? ????? ????? ??. Zero tolerance for leitzonus of those who are on a higher madreiga of tznius. Praise them for it, hold them up as role models, even if you’re not up to it yet.
“So, when discussing acceleration of rockets, I shouldn’t say that the acceleration has the effect of 10g? :)”
Wolf, that is the ONLY appropriate time! 🙂 (You discuss the acceleration of rockets???????? Wow, am I ever impressed!)
“Zero tolerance for leitzonus of those who are on a higher madreiga of tznius. Praise them for it, hold them up as role models, even if you’re not up to it yet.”
Its hard to hold up as a role model someone who looks down upon you. From many of the responses written on this site, and elsewhere, I can perfectly understand why women (I’m not a woman, so I can not claim to be speaking from experience in this matter) simply dont take many of the self proclaimed tznius kanayim seriously, especially when they are men.
There are so many balas tznius that don’t look down on those on lower madreigas. If anyone needs tznius role models, they are certainly out there. The question is, does she even want a role model or does she want to continue down the path shes unfortunately already on.
let me take myfriend’s comment a bit further. the REAL baalos tznius NEVER look down on a person on a lower madreiga, because the only way you can be called a real baalas tznius is if you’re tnius in all your actions, and gaava is the antithesis of tznius. and that’s where ‘looking down your nose’ at someone comes from – gaava.
The fact of referring to someone as being “on a lower madreiga,” is also a problem, as far as I am concerned. Who are we to judge?
missme wrote, a few days back,
Whatever might or might not be wrong with trying to have “too many” Chumros, it isn’t 1/1000th as bad as dressing like a prutza.
I just want to point out that if you emphasize chumros too much (in any area), you may be provoking rebellion in some people. Far better to focus on what halacha requires.
When someone reads about kimchis, or an inspiring story about a woman who covered her sheitel & merited a yeshua, they can think, “this is all totally irrelevant to me”.
Far better if said publications would focus on the need to have knees & torso covered at all times. It’s true that it’s tragic that we’ve come to the point that people should have to be told, but it’s obviously a fact!
Sorry, I meant to say someone with a more tzniusdik levush. Once you make fun of tichels or braids or thick stockings or bochurim who walk in the street with ther eyes down, you lost everything. And about looking down: Do you look down on MO? Do MO look down on Conservative Jews? Who looks down? Yes, we think a tichel or snood is better than a sheitel (otherwise we’d wear shaitels too) just as you think a shaitel is better than hair. Yes, we go by the mishna brurah’s psak that a 3 year old should dress in full tznius clothing. That doesn’t mean anyone looks down on the person. Aderaba, so many of us unfortunately look UP to those who dress less tzniusdik and try to imitate them. And don’t get me started on those who look down on the “yunchi” women and girls who dress more tzniusdik than them. Please, who looks down on whom?
hanab:
ITA. A big general problem bizman hazeh is people not following Halacha. Nobody needs chumros and all that. Just follow the basics of shulchon aruch and you’ll be more than fine.
msseeker, we seem to be on the same wavelength.
In today’s liberal times you get a whole musser schmuez that you have no right to judge people who sin, look down at them etc.
HELLO, that’s NOT the point.
If a tzniusdige woman talks to a non-tzniusdige woman she might not even realize what the other person is wearing. And if she does what’s the difference?
Instead of focusing on the problems and changing what needs to be changed, a lot of problems get pushed under the rug because you gotta make a hush, hush otherwise you’ll appear as if you’re JUDGING others. Give me a break.
There was a whole discussion of this issue yesterday on YWN:
Philosopher, You hit the nail on the head!
Not “Judging” has become a password for “leave me alone I can do what I want and you should still think the same of me’.
Real Ahavas Yisroel has nothing to do with not “Judging”, It is no secret that the Yeshiva World is fiercly “anti chabad” yet it has been the Yeshiva World that has rallied to support and defend Rubashkin lately while unfortunatley those that are extremley into “ahavas yisroel” and “not-judging” rushed to condemn and failed to support.
Real Yiddishkeit is indeed to “judge” based upon Torah, to advocte for Torah and Halachic Observance and to make clear that full Halachic Observance is required At the same hand we must remember a “brother remains a brother no matter what. That is real Ahavas Yisroel.
“Not “Judging” has become a password for “leave me alone I can do what I want and you should still think the same of me’.
Real Ahavas Yisroel has nothing to do with not “Judging”, “
Not quite so. Al tadun es chaveircha ad shetagiyah limkomo. The concept of not judging does not mean leave them alone. It means don’t be holier than thou and ASSUME that what you believe and follow is THE only correct path. Many frum Jews who are scrupulous in their adherence to the Torah, do not feel that their observance has to parallel yours. You want to wear only white shirts – fine. But do not negatively judge someone who wears clean and pressed BLUE shabbos shirts, or striped ones, or any other type, as long as he is clean, neat, and presentable l’kovod Shabbos. That is just ONE example.
If you could never “judge” someones action, you could never fulfill your halachic obligation to give tochocho to someone doing something wrong.
OOMIS1105
In a way your right and in a way your wrong,
Yes you can notjudge someone wearing a blue shirt in a locale where bnei torah as well wear blue shirts.
However if you live in a locale that Bnei Torah do not wear blue shirts then one who so chooses is making a conscious decision not to identify himself with those who wear white shirts. When the one who sees him on the street then assumes he is not a Ben Torah he is not “judging” him rather he is acknowledging the decision the person himself has made.
In fact such things do have implications L’halacha.
There is a difference in Hilchos Yichud as to whether a man is considered a “Parutz” or not. Ashkenazim hold that every person is considered a “Kusher”. However Rav Shmuel Wosner (One of the undisputed Gedolei Poskim) holds that if someone owns a television then the person is rendered a “parutz”.
A prominent Posek in America told me in private conversation that as a whole he does not agree with Rav Wosners ruling in the location that he lives, However in Bnei Brak where Rav Wosner lives he does see merit in the ruling since it is a place where no person who is really a “kusher” has a television so by one simply bringing it into his house he is automatically showing that he does not have the level of a “Kusher”
If one would see a frum Jew acting without derech eretz to others be they Jewish or not, talking loudly, throwing dirt on the floor, bekitzur, not acting metnchlich, wouldn’t that bother anyone? Now what if a lot of frum people did that and that was the accepted behavour of the frum oilim, wouldn’t that cause a flurry of letters to frum newspapers, ranting in the CR or other places where frum people rant?
The very same people who are accepting of pritzus would be the ones screaming that we have to behave, that we can’t make a chillul Hashem.
Pritzus in our machaneh is a chillul Hashem!
missme:
Dont worry about Hocheach Tocheach. I dont remember the location but I believe it is Rabbi Akiva who says in the Gemara that there was nobody in his generation great enough to be able to give Hochacha to others.
Hocheach Tocheach is a very difficult Mitzvah to do and many times its not required because there are many times it doesnt apply. So instead of being busy with that mitzvah how about being busy with dan lekaf zchus which most people dont even begin to know how to do either. Its another super tough one. I think once we master that we can then worry about Hocheach Tocheach.
It just really shocks me that we are so busy JUDGING. Its not our place to judge. Its Hashems job to judge so just remember that when you are busy judging others, you are doing Hashems job which is sort of like saying that you think you are God which is Avodah Zara. Do you see how serious it is?
missme, this is NOT directed at you it is at all those who think they are in a position to judge people.
“So instead of being busy with that mitzvah”
WIY:
Since when does one have a right to discourage ANY mitzvah with a dismissive comment of “So instead of being busy with that mitzvah”??
And mind citing specifically which Gemorah you are alleging paskens that tochacha is inapplicable?
The requirements to give Tochachah are:
1) You have to first assess that there is at least a reasonable possibility of the person listening to you. (Sometimes there are Halachic ways of assessing this.)
2) You have to give the Tochachah in a non-aggressive manner, and never in front of people.
3)You have to make the person understand that the only reason you are giving him the Tochachah is because you care about him, and it is for his good, so that he can get Olam Habah.
It also says in Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 that you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way; but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah.
WIY, maybe you are not judging those who are sinning but you are certainly judging those who are concerned about chillul Hashem!
Don’t you think we should not be focused only on not upsetting people and start thinking about not upsetting the Aibishter? How do you think Hashem “feels” (no He doesn’t feel) when He sees His daughters in skimpy clothing, their knees and thighs getting uncovered with every slight movement, tight clothing hugging their bodies, looking like the cheap nochrim?
Do you think He has nachas from that?
I don’t remember where I heard this but if one is not sure whether their action is a mitzvah or aveirah they should look at the outcome of their action.
If there will be no change because people will feel judged that they are judging not tzniusdige women and won’t take action because of that then how do you think the next generation of Yiddishe girls will look like if their mothers don’t impart this very vital mitzvah of tznius?
Tznius is the FOUNDATION of a holy nation.
How can one NOT “judge”? Are you going to allow your children to befriend someone who watches TV? Someone who eats treif? Someone who is “friends” with opposite gender people? Someone who dresses pritzusdik? Someone who is a mechutzif? Someone who repeatedly creates chillul Hashem?
Are you going to say in all those cases, sorry I can’t judge them; Yankele my son, go be best friends with them! If so, you are a fool who risks spiritually killing your child.
Kasha, right on!
Philosopher and Kasha:
I agree that the Tznius issue is a big problem. I was just talking about judging people. Al tadin chavercha ad shetagia limkomo. It is obviously talking about doing something BAD and still it says dont judge him. Never judge him because you can never be bimkomo. How do you understand it?
BS”D
Ben Levi: Your quote is just another reason why we have Gedolim in both EY and Chutz. Ein L’Dayan Ela Mah Sheinav Ra’os.
If you owned a TV in Benei Brak, it is different than owning a TV in Teaneck (or the sort).
Thank you.
Kasha: You also have to worry about pushing someone totally off (which is all too easy to do in this day and age). There is also the concept of “Mutav She’Yihu Shoggin V’al Yihu Mayzidin”.
WIY: We can say its not their fault, but it doesn’t make it right. We can tell our children that they never learned, etc. but we who know better, should act better.
WellInformedYid,
Al tadin es Chaveircha does not mean that one should turn issurim into “maybes” if someone is dressing in anon-tznius manner then it is not tzniusdig and should be addressed as such.
We should of course be “Dan L’chaf Zchus” that unfortunatley the individual does not know any better or some similar thought (which is often times true). This is far different from saying that tznius is not clear cut
“but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah. “
Do that and you will GUARANTEE them going off the derech. Make sure you are 100% a tzaddik yourself, before you think to give such mussar to someone in a public palce. YOU should NEVER embarrass anyone in public, unless that person is committing a yehareig v’al yaavor.
WADR oomis, you are arguing with the Sefer HaChinuch, not with me.
“When the one who sees him on the street then assumes he is not a Ben Torah he is not “judging” him “
That is wrong on the part of the person making such a foolish and groundless assumption, not the fault of a person dressed otherwise respectfully.
?”? ????? <??????> [???] ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??????
Erechin third perek.
The Chinuch is either talking about an ideal or arguing with a gemarah.
I vote option 1. Ask your LOR for practical use.
People will accept tochacha when they believe that it is given through proper motivations. If someone believes that a person is motivated by some sort of holier than though attitude they will tune out everything said. If you truly feel that you are motivated by nothing more than standing up for the kavod of hashem, then go ahead give tochacha.
What does judging mean?
Nobody’s saying that you can judge others by judging anything personal about a person who doesn’t dress b’tznius or otherwise. Nobody’s making judgements such as does her family dress that way or is it only her, why does she think she has the chutzpah dress that way, etc…
One is allowed to make judgements of others as to how it would effect them. Can my kids play with the kids of someone who does abc or will it have a negative effect, etc.
One can also say constuctive critism, provided that it’s valid.
philosopher:
The point is not to look down on others. I sense that you are condescending to those who arent up to your frumkeit standards. We cant judge others. We have to know what they do is wrong and educate our kids properly, but if we tell our kids, dont dress like that Jewish girl, shez a prutzah she dresses like a shiksa you have done more bad than good. You have no right to look down on another yid, or to hate them in your heart for their lower level of frumkeit.
The bottom line has to be Ahavas Yisroel no matter what.
A parent has an obligation to not allow a pritzasdik girl influence their child. If they must point out to their child that person is dressed inappropriately and is an aveira, that is their obligation.
Years ago I had a huge goiter on my thyroid. I was physically unable to do the first 2 buttons of my blouse because it was so swollen. One day, sitting waiting for a shur to begin a lady comes over to me and says loudly No thats wrong and begins to do up my blouse!I have since had it out and am B”H fine.
I learnt then how important it is to tell people tactfully…
I know I have written it before but we need to remember Rebetzin Braunstein z”l always said: that as men have the Mitzvah of learning Torah we Have the Mitzva of Tzinuis. We sometimes look at ladies and think “She is so so frum, because she dresses modestly”
Its not out of our reach and after 120 we will be asked if we dressed modestly, (among other things connected to Tzinuus)
I don’t think someone is frum just because they dress modestly. I have seen non-Jews dressing modestly, covered from top of the neck to their ankles, in loose clothing, dark colors,very plainly.
People are frum if they act with honor and dignity when they follow the Torah. It also helps if they are not selective in their observance (like dressing b’tznius, but committing monetary fraud, while clearly identifiably Orthodox Jews).
But if they dress pritzusdik, they surely aren’t frum. Non-Tznius dress certainly qualifies as undignified. And if they are dressed as a prutza, by definition they are at best selective in their observance.
frum….
What is Frum?
Please define.
I didn’t read all these posts so maybe my point was mentioned before. The issue about what part of the knee should be covered is moot. There really should be no problem with this issue if women weren’t giving in to their yetzer horas and trying to be so fashionable and stylish in public, to look so “with it” etc. A really tsniusdik woman is not concerned that her appearance to others might look a little untrendy because her skirts are “too” long. It’s only those who worry about what others may think of them that feel they have to wear shorter skirts (and other tsnius issues, such as leaving hair sticking out of one’s snood, or fall, or going barelegged, etc.). If one truly care about her tsnius she would dress neatly but, covered properly and could still look very nice. Who are you dressing for anyway? for Hollywood? some immoral designer in Paris? or for Hashem?
If Moshiach was to come now would we feel happy with what we are wearing? (not too tight, not too short etc.)
The point is not to look down on others. I sense that you are condescending to those who arent up to your frumkeit standards. We cant judge others
WIY, isn’t that statement a little hypocritical from someone who wrote:
I find that as long as daddy is in Kollel he is all holy and the house is Torahdig but then once he leaves he drops in Ruchnius like a stone in water. What do you think that does to the family? They all drop with him. A non Kollel family doesnt have this phenomenon.
And someone who opened a thread regarding those who do not wear hats or jackets during minchah?
Fine, you don’t judge those who sin openly and consistently, but at least don’t be consistent and don’t judge ANYBODY, including me.
We have to know what they do is wrong and educate our kids properly, but if we tell our kids, dont dress like that Jewish girl, shez a prutzah she dresses like a shiksa you have done more bad than good.
Now what makes you think I ever said don’t dress like a particular girl, she’s pritzuh? Actually b”H I personally don’t live near pritzusdige women, none of my neighbors are pritzus, b”H for that, so I never said anything of the sort. Would I live in a neighborhood where pritzus in the norm I would tell my kids that we are very proud to adhere to halacha, we are not cheap, we respect ourselves and therefore we cover oursleves according to halacha. And even if there are frum people who don’t follow halacha that doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.
Now if you don’t agree with my chinuch methods, I can’t help you, but I certainly will not come to you for chinuch advice.
You have no right to look down on another yid, or to hate them in your heart for their lower level of frumkeit.
As I repeat like a broken record, I look down on people’s openly, deliberately, and continously flouting of halachah. I never hate ANY human being, whether they are a non-Jew and especially if they are a Jew if they have not deliberately hurt anyone.
Rabbi Reisman spoke on this once (heard it in one of his recordings) and he said when you are walking down the street and see a lady puching a carriage not dressed up to standards what YOU should be thinking is ow wow, look how much this lady cares about rasing her child and taking care of it.
rescue37:
Thank you. Thats a beautiful way to think and a madreigah we should all strive for. Theres always something good we can see in another person as long as we try to and are interested in seeing good in them.
Theres always something good we can see in another person as long as we try to and are interested in seeing good in them.
Agreed. Far too often I see people knocking people down, insulting them, calling them names, etc. rather than trying to find something good about them. It’s far too easy to shout “rasha!” at someone, but it takes far more character to find something good to say about another person.
The Wolf
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