- This topic has 950 replies, 113 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
sjs it is a sad reality that we are in Golus and our bad actions like pritzus are a hashpoah from the goyim. It’s all their fault!
sjs it is a sad reality that we are in Golus and our bad actions like pritzus are a hashpoah from the goyim.
I agree. In Yiddish there is a saying “vos es goyisht zich Yiddished zich”. What the goyim do eventually become accepted by the Jews.
It’s all their fault!
A lot of designers are Jews and a lot of frei Jews are instigators of such a culture, unfortunately.
We frum Jews should know better than trying to emulate pritzus dress and kashering with wearing a skirt that barely covers the knee (that’s already a step up from those whose skirts barely touch the knee) and tight clothing that shows every bump but is supposedly kashered by the elbows being covered.
A little busha! We have lost our natural busha that Jewish women throught the ages possesed.
It’s all their fault!
What, no personal responsibility?
Do you eat at McDonalds because they are all over the place and they advertise so much and after all, the non Jews do it and its accepted by Jews?
No? You controls yourselves? Hmm…
I’m tired of Jews blaming their own personal failings on others. Own up to what YOU do wrong and figure out how to help YOURSELF. You can’t change others but you can change yourself. Others may provide an easier path to sin, but you do the sin.
SJ-I couldn’t agree more. I like the way you phrased the last line.
SJs, 99% of Jews stopped keeping kosher in America! And 80% married goyim! The small remainder is only frum because the Gedolim acted and made yeshivos and kashrus organizations and mikvehs and shuls and kosher restaurants and stores. Why didn’t take that into cheshbon?
The subject of bechirah is adifficult topic but klor certain stuff we don’t have bechira and even if we do it’s a heavy nisayon, and the Gemora says you can’t put yourself in a nisayon. My point is we need Teshuvah and Moshiach fast so we’ll be the ones in chaarge of styles not Eisav!
I’m tired of Jews blaming their own personal failings on others. Own up to what YOU do wrong and figure out how to help YOURSELF. You can’t change others but you can change yourself. Others may provide an easier path to sin, but you do the sin.
That sounds refreshing after all the excuses being rammed down the throats of the CR bloggers.
Perhaps this requires the beginning of a new discussion thread,….
“The subject of bechirah is a difficult topic but klor certain stuff we don’t have bechira”
In what “stuff” dont we have bechira? How is it so klor? What sefer discusses bechira and comes to such a conclusion?
I would not recommend learning these sforim for a poshite yid:) This is Ramchal, leaning towards Kabboloh and could tear a persons mind and even make him krum. But what’s noigeia for YOU is too distance yourself from nisyonos as much as you can, and as hard as you try they will always come your way so fight the ones that come your way, and safek doraysa lchumra assume you have bechira over it!
re: Dave Hirsch source. See Siman Ayin Heh. I forget which sif kattan (but is the one which discusses saying krias shema in front of a woman whose hair is uncovered so is easy to find), but the Biur Halacha offers a synopsis of the shittos. He discusses the general chiyuv of a married woman to cover her hair and says that in her own home she does not have to keep it covered. I believe he says is a good idea that she do so so anyway, not because of hilchos tznius but because of hilchos brachos, so that her husband may say devorim shebikdusha (such as making a bracha, saying krias shema). He brings the Mogen Avraham who writes in the name of the Zohar (maybe its the AriZal) who says a woman should cover her hair even in the privacy of her own home, I am pretty sure it comes from Kimchis – but really dont remember). He brings, the Chasam Sofer was noheg to be machmir like the Magen Avraham, but most poskim are not. I am willing to bet that many who are arguing it is halacha to keep hair covered, ALA Kimchis, are chassidishe or otherwise of Hungarian extraction, while those who say it is a middas chassidusta are of Litvish extraction.
Regarding covering the knee. It depends on how one defines “Shok”. I was told (meaning, I have NO source to offer you other than the person who told me so please dont ask) the Mishna Berura says this means the area “below the knee”. Anything above the “shok” is an erva and below is not. Where the “shok” begins and ends is according, to my understanding, an area of disagreement among poskim. Top of knee, bottom of knee, somewhere in the middle, much further down the leg closer to ankle. My own Rav says that it is clear the MB says the “shok” means the knee and while he has no proof one way or the other, to define it as the lowest possible portion of the knee, he said that he knows others might feel it is a bit higher up. He also said that the MB agrees that if the minhag of women (and I believe it means jewish women)is to cover a certain part of the body, then in that city/town/area that part of the body is considered an erva. While not a conclusive proof to this concept, the Ben Ish Chai writes that “those areas of the arm which are normally uncovered, the kaf (palm) and etzbaos (fingers) are not an erva”. Living in Bagdhad where women probably dressed in the full Moslem levush (and jewish women probably had to dress the same way) it was the minhag for all other parts of the arm to be covered and he considred it an ervah.
Bottom line. Follow your family Rav.
Based upon the Zohar many women have the custom to cover their hair while sleeping (Zohar Parshas page 239, see Yalkut Shemonei Bereishis), although the covering will usually fall off.
Exposing Partial Hair:
The Pri Megadim, Mishna Berura, and Chazon Ish all conclude that a skirt must therefore cover at least from the knee and above. Tosfos writes that the shok is actually the lower part of the leg in people. The description of the term shok by the Bach (O.C. 75) as a place that if not for the chiddush din or ervah we would not consider prohibited to be exposed because it is normally covered in dirt seems to point to the lower foot as the area being discussed, not an area above the knee. Based on these sources many poskim (HaRav Vozner; the Chazon Ish also debates the proofs for this position) argue that a skirt should be much longer and cover far below the knee as well.
Of course it must covered in all physical positions she will be in during the course of the day.
Re the Ramchal. Are you speaking from experience?
Yes.
Hurrah!!! Finally the Chofetz Chaim is remembered for something other than shmiras haloshon. Never mind he made an entire mishna brurah with halochos on all aspects of yiddishkeit. Yasher koach, myfriend.
Re the husband: See the Mahrsha on the braisa in yoma where the story of Kimchis is brought. He tries to explain why they asked Kimchis what zechus SHE had, and did not think that perhaps the zechus was due to her husband (IE the father of the kohanim gedolim). He answers, they knew her husband and KNEW the zechus couldnt have come from him 🙂
It would seem her Midas Chassidus in this area helped as a zchus for her children, but not her husband (another answer he brings is that they were her children, but she had them with several husbands – IE she was an almanah and remarried).
But what is at the root of the mode of dress. It is to attract men.
Mod-80 I forgot to mention that while most frum girls do not dress to impress men in general, Hashem put into women’s nature to want to look attractive which that will be a help in finding a mate and having a good marriage.
And while frum girls don’t necessarily think about attracting men when they buy or wear clothing, they will do so when they are involved in a shidduch where the boy interests them. There’s nothing wrong with appearing attractive to a prospective chosson or chosson, but it is wrong to be dressed pritzusdig.
My $0.02 re previous posts:
1. Frum women do NOT dress pritzusdik to attract men, not even subconciously, IMO. Nevertheless, they’ll have to give din vecheshbon for every look or impure thought. I don’t envy their gehenom.
2. This dor hamabul is OUR nisoyon and if we learn from the goyim it’s OUR fault.
3. Learning torah is not the only solution. It’s not even one of the solutions. Your rabbonim and rebbetzins have to come out and speak, write, and farfir about tznius just like they do in chassidishe circles, where the problem is much less severe.
msseeker-I disagree with point #3. Unfortunalety nowadays even some chassidim are not dressing tzniyus You can’t even tell if they are litvish/chassidish-at least where I live. And believe me rabbonim have come out regarding tzniyus-ppl are just not willing to accept it.
blinky, you agree 100% with point #3. Did I say all’s hunky-dory by chassidim? No. Are you denying that the problem is much les severe among chassidim? I don’t think so. Please don’t compare the worst of us to the best (or average) of yours.
As opposed to “protesting”, why not try to take action? Otherwise, all that’s being accomplished is an adult whine-fest. Some stores have very respectful and sensitive signs advising people on appropriate skirt length with an attached ruler. That’s a great step in combating this problem, as is Gila Manolson’s book Outside/Inside. Another great step would be to educate young ladies as to the reasons behind tznius and respecting oneself, instead of showing books like Oz V’Hadar L’vusha to them (a great book, but not the first step for someone for whom covering their knees would be progress!), or yelling at them, which is really counterproductive, because no one respects someone who yells at them; and if they don’t respect you, they’re NOT LISTENING.
I saw msseeker’s post that learning Torah is not the only solution. That is wrong, look in Mesilas Yesaharim chapter 4, that the only way to fight any Yetzer Hora is LEARNINg Torah.
But women don’t learn Torah! In chassidish schools they teach the girls that tznius for women is like Torah for men and they constantly stress the importance and beauty of tznius.
The majority of Chassidish women and girls are more tznius than non-Chassidish. I’m not saying everywhere and I’m not saying all Chassidish women are more tznuisdig.
But in general, I find that to be the case.
I agree. Whatever the’re doing, the’re obviously doing something right. We all could learn from them.
This thread could go on forever but the bottom line is Tznius has to start at home. Your schools and Rebbetzins dont buy your clothing. Its the mothers who shop for the girls and women who shop for themselves. The mothers have to make it clear that untzniusdig clothing is not allowed in this house. Be firm about it and make it clear that theres no room for compromise. If a parent pays for clothing for their daughter that isnt tznius then they are accessories to the averah. A teenage girl usually cant afford her own clothing so the parents have to say “you dont buy tznius clothing I dont pay for your clothing” it may sound harsh but hey it will work.
Another point is a husband has to set up a Torahdig house where the wife wouldnt consider bringing home such clothing for herself. It has to be something discussed and clarified that it wont go on in your family. You cant say “oh its just one outfit she probably didnt realize…” it will become her whole wardrobe very quickly.
I agree with what some other people mentioned regarding learning/reading books on tznius. Considering how big of a nesayon it is for girls and as I guy I will really never know, all I can say is that the nesayon requires constant work which means constantly learning and relearning the Halachos and all the inyanim of tznius. I know that if I find myself having a hard time in any area I focus on it and spend extra time learning those halachos and hashkafos. Same should be any man or women who finds themselves having a hard time combating their yetzer hora.
blinky: And believe me rabbonim have come out regarding tzniyus…
Not nearly enough. And when their rebetzins look like models themselves it doesn’t help matters either. Why, there was a tznius kinus a few years ago where famous authors and speakers spoke out about tznius… looking like clowns in hot-pink lipstick.
Yidden, wake up! There’s a fire raging in our neighborhoods! instill in them an appreciation of tznius. put a little more stress on the achrayus for the kedusha of klal yisroel that H’ has given in the hands of bnos yisroel. RAISE YOUR STANDARDS!
EDITED
I don’t know which kinus you went to that the rebbitzens were dresses like “clowns…” it sounds like you are insinuating that these are the rebbitzens today-which are most definitley not! But whatever the case is i don’t agree its their fault. The blame is on us alone. There is so much talk about tzniyus there is definitly a massive awareness on this subject, its just that ppl DON’T CARE! I definitely agree that there is a “fire raging in our neighborhoods!”
Since my post was edited, I’ll illustrate my point with a vort I heard several times from a famous darshnta on ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????. This posuk plainly tells us that pritzus causes H’ to turn away from us r”l, yet speaking to women this rebitzin teitches it ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? … loshon hora… ??”?.
blinky, please read my comments a little more carefully b4 responding. I wrote authors and speakers, not rebetzins. And yes, some rebitzins look like actresses but I didn’t hear them speak about tznius.
got you:) but i still beleive in the second part of my response.
msseeker:
It may be a true pshat ervas deebur…However they are certainly taking the pasuk out of the pashtus.
I dont know if you are a guy or girl, however Iam a guy so I cant fully understand the yetzer horah a girl has to dress untzniusdig, however I will venture to say its likely as strong as a mans yetzer to look. If that is the case, its a very strong tayvah and therefore requires strong measures and really working on yourself not to fall in this area.
People need to take personal responsibility for what they do.
As a male I will stipulate that women dress to impress women and not men.
HOWEVER, when I’m in a bagel shop in Lakewood and a (Yeshivisha/regular) women is sitting at a table and leans over to help her daughter with her ice cream and she exposes 6 inches of her back because her shirt rode up, THAT is a problem.
And when I’m having pizza with mt 8 year old daughter and EVERY women is sitting in the store with knees and more visible for all to see, THAT is a problem.
And when I’m walking to my car in the parking lot and a woman opens a car door to get in/out right in front of me and in the process bares it all, THAT is a problem.
I live in Lakewood and trust me, I can go on and on and on and…
No, men are not perverts, but if you stick this stuff right in front of us, what would you like us to do? We’re trying to mind our own business but some women are trying to make their business, ours!
WIY and Yatzmich, that’s what teachers in chassidishe schools constantly talk about. One teacher put it bluntly, “Girls, you know what a bochur’s yetzer hora is like? It’s like passing a treif restaurant after starving for three days.”
Another teacher, when asked by her student why “litvishe meigen alles”, put away her lesson for that day and spoke at length about kedusha, chukas hagoy, etc. One thing she said stuck in my mind: “This I can you, girls: the Vilna Gaon’s rebbitzin did NOT wear a denim skirt with a red T-shirt!”
And THIS, myfriend, is what we’re doing right.
Yatzmich
So true especially with the climbing out of suvs you can see everything. There’s no reason why women are allowing men who aren’t their husbands to see covered parts of their body.
msseeker:
For the most part chasidish women dress very tzniusdik but there’s just no way regular Lakewood yeshivish ppl will dress that way.
“No, men are not perverts, but if you stick this stuff right in front of us, what would you like us to do?”
Here’s an idea. When you notice women starting to get out of their cars, LOOK AWAY from them. But, yes, you are right, they should be more careful. In fact, when women shop for clothing (this is a tip for you ladies), they really ashould bend in all directions when in the dressing eroom, to see what happens to the clothing and thier tznius when they twist and turn.
I’m sorry for not getting back to you with the Marei Mekomos, I got busy and by the time I got back you’ve done the homework on your own. I’m sorry for writing 72, it was supposed to be 75 was just an innocent typo.
I just realized that there was another discussion I missed, where I hope I can also shed some light. Of course simply citing Seforim can’t lead us to a Psak, one must confer with his Rav. However, this may help one portray his Halachic question in a correct way, and can guide us what can be problematic and what not.
Regarding dealing with Bigdei Pritzus (that some even called to protest): Harav Wosner Shlit”a in his responsa Shevet Halevi (Chelek 2 Siman 62) rules that it is essentially permitted to sell such clothing due to various reasons (including, being worn in a Tznius fasion – under or with another dress etc.), however, one shall refrain from doing so.
…??? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?????, ?”? ???? ???? ???? ???…
I would assume that according to this, protesting wouldn’t be the right thing to do , especially when our Torah is branded as kind and sweet (????? ???? ????).
DH, the protest was also against the prutzas who wear them in a non-tznius manner, not just the sellers. But even certain clothing (eg a miniskirt) is essentially only used in a pritzus manner. And someone earlier mentioned the Chazon Ish prohibited selling pritzus clothing even to support someone in learning.
Approaching tznius from the perspective of the taava of men will never work in the long run….it’s galus and people are trying hard, but the yetzer hara is really strong for everyone. Look around the country, I wont say where I am from, but in my high school, tznius was taught in an innovative way. It;s still not 100% successful, but it’s an improvement over the stories I hear from in town schools….
oomis –
Is that the best you can do? “Look away?” What kind of ‘cop out’ answer is that?
Of course we look away, but why are you dressing/acting that way in the first place?
msseeker, I believe that miniskirts are classified as Bigdei Pritzus. I don’t think Rav Wosner drew the line somewhere. He didn’t mean a dress that is questionable according to some, he meant miniskirts etc. And only one reason he cited was wearing it in a Tznius fashion (which you can do by adding a panel).
On the questionable clothing, there is a Teshuva from the Kloisenburg Rebbe ZT”L (who maintained that wigs are an Ervah just like hair) that permits selling Sheitels because there are those who are lenient (I’ll try to get you the M”M ASAP.
I saw an important question raised here about a new phenomenon going on in the Frum community. Women go to male hairdressers to style their wigs. There are issues besides Tznius (such as a MUST to support a fellow Jew, if it isn’t significantly more in price, although the service or quality is somewhat better and so forth) but in a Tznius thread we’ll stay on topic. The Debrecen’er Rav discusses this (sorry for the exact again, you know there’s no web in Beis Midrash) and rules it explicitly Assur. Reb Moshe has a similar case which he says is not accepted and claims that although the man may be doing it for business, it might lead to unwanted situations, willingly or forcibly… He goes on saying that men should forbade their wives from doing so. You might want to differentiate between the situations, whereas in that case (swimming) a woman’s body would be exposed. However, I see it being similar or even worse, this case has direct contact, touching and beautifying a woman.
I realize that some men have pointed out that WE are not as careful as we should be or that we don’t realize that we accidentally show more than we think we are and I appreciate that. Because in all honesty the examples brought forth are purely accidental and not intentional.
So I think it would be beneficial for all to agree that the onus is both on the men and the women. Women need to be more careful and need to be more sensitive when teaching the concept of tznius to other women and young girls in order to make the right and lasting impression. Tznius needs to be carried out with pride and not with a burden.
As far as the men are concerned they need to be less judgmental, need to look away and need to be totally appreciative of their wives and daughters and let them know how beautiful and graceful they look because they are tznius and yet emulate what a true bas yisroel and a beautiful woman truly looks like.
“oomis –
Is that the best you can do? “Look away?” What kind of ‘cop out’ answer is that?
Of course we look away, but why are you dressing/acting that way in the first place? “
Yatzmich, your somewhat chutzpadig reply, left me non-plussed for a moment. Clearly you did not read the rest of my post. I was not copping, out, but pointing out the obvious. When you see a potential situation (a car door opening and a woman getting out)that you can reasonably predict will cause you to see something untzniusdig, turn away from it. Even if the person is dressing improperly, at least you will not see anything embarrassing.
But then, you question me as to why I am dressing/acting that way? What gives you the idea that I do so? I absolutely do NOT dress in such a manner. And given your feelings on the subject, that was a not-so-nice conjecture on your part, and especially so, as we are about to go into The Nine Days. I don’t think that was your intention, but it nonetheless came off that way to me.
“pointing out the obvious. When you see a potential situation (a car door opening and a woman getting out)that you can reasonably predict will cause you to see something untzniusdig”
THAT’S the problem!! It shouldn’t be obvious and “reasonably predictable that you will see something untzniusdig” when a frum woman gets out of a car.
THAT’S what has to change.
THAT’S the problem!! It shouldn’t be obvious and “reasonably predictable that you will see something untzniusdig” when a frum woman gets out of a car.
That’s part of the problem. The other part of the problem is that a man doesn’t need to intentionaly look when a woman comes out of the car.
True, but one doesnt excuse the other. They’re both distinct problems, each in their own own right. And frequently a man will see it without intending to before he realizes what is happening (simply by inadvertently just looking ahead and seeing things in front of him).
Either way, a frum woman coming out of (or going in to) a car should never pose a tznius hazard, as unfortunately is so often the case these days in even the frummest neighborhoods.
Chutzpah?
Gee, I’m sorry if I hurt you but don’t slink back from your answer. If you say something, stand behind it!
Did you ever walk by a bakery on Tisha B’av afternoon and tell yourself not to smell? The women are out there showing stuff that they shouldn’t be, and all you can say is “look away?”
Of course men have to be careful where they look, but I’m talking about regular everyday activities. If I was to be “careful” by your definition, I would be bumping in to light poles and getting hit by cars trying to cross the street!
Another galling excuse many prutzas give for dressing slutty is that the shiksas dress even worse, so why is it so bad if she dresses a little pritzusdik if the goyim dress mamish like a zoneh? Of course people are generally more attracted to opposites in their own ethnicity; and one more prutza on the street is one more pitfall; and in frum neighborhoods where the frum are the majority b’h you often don’t have to deal with too many shiksas around, so most of the problems are frum prutzas.
“One’s appearance must appear refined and respectable.”
See Mesilas Yesharim 23 in the opening paragraph (“Path of the Just” page 163, Feldheim) where the Ramchal explains that tznius clothing are those which are respectable (??????????) but not “overly fancy”. Although Mesilas Yesharim is a “mussar” text which guides people to do more than the minimal requirement of halachah. Nevertheless here the Ramchal is defining tznius clothing, which should be worn to develop humility, rather than giving a “higher level” of tznius.
Bright colored clothing or clothing that otherwise attracts attention are not permitted.
See Rama Y.D. 178:1, Kitzur Shulchon Oruch 3:2, note the Shach 178:3 who explains that black is a modest color.
A married woman must cover her hair.
See Chayei Adam 4:5 which cites Bamidbar 5:18.
An unmarried woman’s hair should be short or tied back, such as in a braid.
This reflects the notion that one should look respectable but not over made up. Torah sources indicated braided hair (see Shabbos 95a) and hair pulled back (see Misdrash Shir Hashirim 4:3) is attractive, but not ostentatious like those described in Yeshayahu 3:16 (see Rashi there).
Makeup and perfume is intended to beautify a wife for her husband, beyond this it should be used scarcely if at all.
See Tanchuma Vayishlach Piskah 5
Rashi- “A Tzadik marries a tznua; A Rasha marries a prutza”
Chazal say “a person is given the partner he deserves and requires” (Sotah 2a). On this Rashi writes “A modest woman for a tzadik and an immodest woman for rasha”. It is remarkable that Rashi does not say that the wife of a tzadik is very knowledgable, intelligent, or a great Baalas Chesed. The ONE and only quality mentioned by Rashi is tznius. Evidently, tznius is the most important quality that the partner-in-life of a tzadik must have. A tznuah makes a home environment in which the tzadik can grow and flourish.
The rasha is likewise granted a wife that enables him to pursue his desires, because “A person is helped to go the way he wished to go (Makos 10b). Since he has chosen to be a rasha, the ideal wife for him is a prutza. Here again, Rashi does not say that the wife of a rasha is woman who does not keep kashrus or Shabbos, is a miser or the like. Evidently, that which affects the husband most and helps his crooked way is the fact that she is a prutza.
Encouraging girls to tznius with this information:
Transmitting the information just mentioned to girls can be a great source of chizuk to them, and a reprimand to those who are at present indifferent to tznius and Jewish refinement, If a girl realizes her complete future can hinge on how much Yiras Shmayaim and tznius she imbibies to incorporates into herself, she will increase her effort and not delay implementing such essentials with earnestness. An awareness that the good midos and earnest yiddishkeit of her husband will be directly related to how tznuah she is, can have a very far reaching effect on her.
It is in fact a principle of chinuch to bring a child or adult to realize that it is not for the sake of others this or that is being demanded of them. It is for their own good. They, more than anyone else, need and will benefit enormously from which is being required, and that without it their lives could well in in partial, if not total, ruin c”v.
“Did you ever walk by a bakery on Tisha B’av afternoon and tell yourself not to smell?”
Unfortunately smells, both good and bad cannot be avoided. Sights can. No one is telling anyone to be a fool and walk with his eyes so averted that he cannot see a pole in the street. That is a ridiculous extrapolation. You avert your eyes while the person is getting out of the car to avoid potential uncomfortable sights. You also walk looking at the rest of the street ahead of you. And if you walk carelessly in the street while crossing it, to avoid seeing a short skirt, then you are putting your life at risk, and there is no chiyuv ever do that except on the 3 yehareig v’al yaavors.
Adults don’t continue to dig in their heels when they clearly made a mistake, and try to “prove” their point by making a foolish analogy (the bakery). I bedavka would go out of my way NOT to walk by a bakery on Tisha B’Av at any time, if you want to know the truth. All I said to you was to try to avoid looking at things that offend you. Sometimes you can’t. There is pritzus all around us. And since neither of us is in charge of “Town Tznius,” you will have to learn how to deal with the different kinds of clothing that you will see on the street. One of those ways is to simply look away WHEN YOU CAN, WITHOUT ENDANGERING YORSELF OR ANYONE ELSE. Obviously that goes without saying, especially if you are driving.
We live in Golus, and we are not the bosses here. You also did not address the fact of your asking me why I dress in an untzniusdig way, when in fact I do not do so, and you had no right to say such a thing to me. Instead you go back to the first issue, which as far as I am concerned has been discussed, asked and answered.
(BTW, the expression “gee” should really not be used by a frum Yid. It is derived from the English name of Oso Ish, and is used by the non-Jews as a way of cursing without saying his whole name. That is how it came into common usage. Just FYI.)
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.