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Picketing on public property is a constitutional right in a democracy, as demonstrated when it was done on the get issue in front of peoples houses.
“Unless you know for certain it is the case, you are halachicly *required* to give tochocho.”
There are halachos that dictate HOW one gives tochacha not just when.
“And if after giving the tochocho they still are doing the aveira, you are halachicly *required* to publicly humiliate them until they comply.”
(Pardon the cynicism) I can just see people lining up and saying hinneni muchan umzuman already. A hetter to publicly humiliate someone.
There is a mitzvah of tochacha, which comes with a qualifier “lo tisa alav chet”.
Wellinformedyid says “Besides why would a frum married woman want to attract the eyes of other married men? I will be dan lekaf zchus that that is not their intention because if it is then we have very huge problems on our hands.”
I’m hesitant to call you naive, but i think if there isn’t such a problem yet then it’s pretty close to being a problem. How about when there is a congregation of couples; isn’t this lack of tznius going to lead to problems? or similar situations?
“Picketing on public property is a constitutional right in a democracy”
many countys have ordinances against pickiting in front of private homes, its not as clear cut as you might think.
The police were there, and allowed, by the get picketing in front of private homes. The NYPD and the courts won’t (and constitutionally couldn’t) differentiate between one religious issue or another.
You win more flies with honey than vinegar.
Do you really think picketing in front of someone’s house will make them more likely to adhere to what is tzniusdik or do you think you’ll turn people off yiddishkeit that way?
I think the tznius gemachs (classifieds offering to sew slits, fix necklines, etc.) are more likely to have a positive impact than those who think they have an obligation to shame someone in public.
I’m laughing at the idea of the pickets. Someone start it and lets see!
Its nothing to laugh about. And its a last resort only, after all other overtures and beseechings fail. No one wants to do it, but it may have to be done to get through this terrible problem infesting our streets if nothing else works. It would be done out of pain and hope for change.
Kasha, first of all, I don’t learn Gemarah, but I did learn the Kimchis STORY many, many times throughout my life, and it was NEVER meant to be an halachic inyan, only a lesson about her level of tznius (and we were not being told to emulate that level, just to understand it). It does not mean that the Gemarah is AGREEING with her that all women should do the same, only that the Gemarah is telling her story to make a point about how far she was prepared to go in her commitment to personal tznius. Does the Gemarah actually say, “YES, rabbosai – Kimchis was correct – her children were exceedingly beautiful and became kohanim Gedolim b’davka because the inanimate objects in her house never saw a hair of her head” – SERIOUSLY? There are plenty of things the Gemarah is “wont” to include that may be personal conjecture. There is a rabbi in Pirkei Avos who said not to be marbeh sicha with nashim, and it is told how (I think it was) Beruriah gave him mussar on that, when he used too many words to ask her for directions to Lyddah. Not all rabbonim agree with each other, and many things in the Gemarah are meant to teach a certain hashkafa to us but not necessarily halacha which is accepted by all or most.
We should be tzniusdig, both men and women, in all aspects of our lives. What one person chooses to be machmir on, does not invalidate the observance of one who is not machmir in the same way. the danger of stories like this one is that people such as yourself start to be hyper-critical (not hypocritical) of other people who are FOLLOWING the actual halacha, because you begin to think of the chumrah as the halacha and the halacha as “minimal observance, at best.” Tell me I am wrong about that, because everything I have ever read from you, tells me otherwise. And I absolutely respect and applaud your right to believe, follow, observe, every chumrah ever adopted and those yet to be thought of. But please, please, please stop preaching to the oilem as if we are all sinners and you are the one with the universal clue. Because if that is not your intention, then you are coming off that way to me, and possibly to other posters (though I can only speak for myself).
oomis, yes you are mistaken. I’ve already lost count how many times on this thread it was mentioned already that the madreiga of Kimchis is not obligatory. Yes, it is recommended. No, some people may not be on that level, and they are still 100% kushere yidden in every sense. Yes, the Gemorah cites Kimchis as a lesson to emulate, if possible, as much as attainable for each individual in their capacity.
I don’t think picketing is a good idea. It will just create more problems and sinas chinum.
Let’s get to the source of the problem.
Girls in school need to be taught the halachas and motivated (I have given an idea for that earlier in the thread) to follow halachas.
Mothers need to be role models by following halacha and dressing well. But even if a mother does not care too much about fashion and doesn’t care to be fashionable (to each his own) a mother must convey the importance of being a tznua to her daughter.
Only if daughters respect their mothers will they take their mothers seriously. Having a kesher with a daughter and being sincere is of paramount importance in a mother/daughter relationship. (Or parent/child retionship for that matter, as well.)
Also if mothers of boys in shidduchim feel that looks in a girl is of primary importance, girls take notice and feel that they need to flaunt themselves. So mothers of boys in shidduchim if you have daughters and you want your daughters to be b’tznuas it’s important that you show what true values are.
All above is very important, but the most effective way to combat pritzus is the school laying down the laws of tznius standards the students need to meet to be accepted in their school and those standards need to be met whether the student is in school, at home or anywhere else.
Of course the school dress code need not be the same as the tznius standards which may mean that different clothing may be accpeted to wear at home and not at school. Clothing kids wear at home can be more casual than say uniforms, but the tznius standards for dress at home have to be set according to halacha.
i am a young girl myself and however unmodest girls dress is because of peer pressure and not for boys.
semisthebest: Oh come on. Are you seriously trying to tell us that girls of shidduch age arent dressing for the guys? I want a second opinion!
“Yes, it is recommended”
By who?
I think that if the Shulchan Aruch or Mishna Brura were written now the mecchabrim would say that the internet is not a place for sincere bnei aliya.
Of course women should try to dress like Kimchis. We should all strive for the highest levels that we can. Who wants to remain at a low level all theyre lives?
“but it may have to be done to get through this terrible problem infesting our streets if nothing else works. It would be done out of pain and hope for change. “
It should absolutly be done. IF a molester moved into the neighborhood, youd picket to keep youre kids safe, right? Well why shouldnt you picket to keep your neshomo and the neshamos of your husbands and children safe?
“So, is it safe to assume that you believe frum women shouldn’t operate (let alone patronize) a lingerie shop (as, I believe, Kasha believes*)?”
Those stores shouldnt exist since it promotes people being untznius in the home. Even a husband and wife has to show some tznius and wearing lingere is so against that that I cant think of any reaons why it shouldbe muttar for such a store to sell to frum yidden.
“Do you disagree that a married woman’s hair is for her husband? “
Alot of chassidic women dont even show theyre husbands theyre hair. And yes Im talking about the ones who dont shave it all off – they still keep it covered always even in front of their husbands. Halevai all women should be so tznius in front of their husbands and certainly in public.
Now M-r is comparing women who wear short sleeves to a bona fide pervert who molests children???? Wow!
“they still keep it covered always even in front of their husbands”
Good for them. May they all be zoche to sons who are kohanim gedolim.
Wow. The molestor comment takes the cake.
No its not the same but the same thing applies. Their both dangers of differant kinds and you haveto protect yurself against both.
Turning every chumra into basic halachic requirement is a way to turn people off yiddishkeit. We women are not failures for refusing to accept the chumra that we have to cover our hair at all times in private.
Mosherose, look in K’subos 75A and Sanhedrin 21A.
Well Informed Yid, can you give some examples of your opinion that people are more machmir on chumras than halacha? I’m sure you might find five (or ten or twenty) cases out of thousands of halachos. And then there is always the 1% meshugayim who are yotzei min haklal!
moshe makes a good point that spiritual damager is far worse than any possible physical or emotional damager. so the point that tznius issues should take *at least* as much priority as physical and mental health is a very good and valid point.
Sounds like a Bais Midrash here.
In regards to a woman uncovering her hair at home. If I remember correctly, the Magen Avrohom states that one shouldn’t uncover her hair even at home. He cites either Kimchis or a Zohar (maybe even both). I believe that it is in Orach Chaim 72, however I’ll try to bring an exact when I get my hands on a Shulchan Aruch. There might also be a Darkei Moshe (possibly in Even HEzer) that rules the same.
In the Gemara (the way most Rishonim explain) it isn’t really an issue. The question of a ‘Kalsa’ (net) is only in public. However, the Chasam Sofer does maintain that even in the privacy of her home it is considered ‘Overes Al Das Yehudis’ (here too you’ll excuse me for forgetting the exact – I’ll get it all in a later post IY”H). Reb Moshe argues on the Chasam Sofer in the Igros Moshe (I believe E”E Chelek 1 Siman 58, I’ll give you this too), but still says that one should refrain after a Psak has come out of the holy mouth of the Chasam Sofer.
Give the Marei Mekomos please!
I’m very sorry, but as indicated in my previous post I don’t have access to those Seforim right now. I will post them as soon as I have a chance.
Most men don’t want to believe this, but most frum adult women dress to impress WOMEN not MEN.
How can ladies dance in front of male photographers (and waiters) in the woman’s section at a chasanah??? (And how can those males be there and look??) The women are not allowed to dance in front of men who are there looking.
And how is it tznius to take videos of ladies dancing at a wedding that the Chosson (and other male family members) will be viewing???
SJ
Oh yes I certainly believe that.
But what is the manner that impresses other women?
Is it not to a large extent to be dressed in a way that will attract men more than the other women do?
I don’t mean this is a conscious plan, certainly not among the Holy women of Klal Yisroel. But it is an intrinsic nature in women implanted by HaKodesh Borchu.
missme
I’ve often wondered the same thing.
Yes women dress to impress other women not other men. It is no different than and probably stems from the competitive nature taught in school. We are taught to “outdo” one and other and it doesn’t stop at graduation. As a matter of fact it goes full steam ahead because of shidduchim and how difficult that parsha is. Young girls going to Chasunas get their hair done professionally, get their make-up done professionally, have dresses custom-made, wear the highest heels, etc. All to stand out from the crowd and be noticed. Why? Because those “gorgeous girls” are going to attract the shadchanim, the mothers of the boys, etc.
And this is a message to ALL you men out there who have the comments. It is up to YOU (not you in particular but MEN in general) to tell your wives in the most gentle way possible, how you would like her to cover her hair, and no you don’t approve of her taking out hair and combing over the top of the sheitel, and you don’t approve of leaving the hair out and pushing the headband back, etc. It is also up to the husbands to say the skirt or sleeve is too short. Did it ever occur to any of you men quoting Gemara and Halacha that the men have just as much of an achrius here because they don’t say anything to their wives? Yes, the wives might try a little with one outfit or another, but a husband must communicate the halchas he knows and how he would like the hashkafas of the home to be. And if the daughter is not yet married, then the father must also sit down with his daughter and have a gentle conversation.
I’d like to hear here from ladies who walk around with their knees uncovered. Or very short skirts.
In today’s society it’s very well known that knees should be covered. I’d like to hear their thoughts.
Actually men have nothing to do with it. Competition between women is fierce. It is about designers, latest trends, baubles, bangles and bows!!!!!
And what exactly do you think the designers have in mind?
I don’t believe there are very many form hiding fashions coming out of Paris.
Pritzus is one of the Nisyonei Hador. What can we expect when the goyim have fallen so low and we live in their midst? We need a Geulah bekarov.
Mod-80, to the women, its not about attracting other men. Its about whats’ in style and whats sold. Why would a yeshiva bachur wear a Tommy Hilfiger white shirt? Why pay more for the logo? Becuase they are trying to impress other men. Its the same concept, though womens fashion is a bit more complex.
Remember, these same women will dress to impress this way for a womens only function just as much as a wedding where they will see men. Men really aren’t a factor at all.
And if this really bothered men, they wouldn’t be marrying these women. Or discussing this before marriage. “Hot Chanis” are marrying men who obviously want their wives to look like that.
SJ I don’t agree.
As I said it’s about what impresses other women, but this is to a great extent about what will attract men, what will make men’s eyes turn.
As I said this is part of women’s nature, all women. To attract men. Among all fish, insects, mammals, birds, reptiles the attraction of one gender to the other is well known and integral. This is a mashul. This is tevah among man as well. This is quite pashut and quite well known in all cultures. It is a fact. A very clear fact. How exactly it is sublimated and hidden among people is another matter.
Yes women dress to win the admiration (and envy) of other women. But what is at the root of the mode of dress. It is to attract men.
I think I’ve said more than enough on this matter. You can go ahead and have the last word.
I just want to say something else:
Let’s not forget the Holy Tzidkanios who still exist, and G-d willing will soon increase, who dress only to please Hashem.
The only way to fight pritzus is by learning Torah and improving chinuch, and eventually Bias Hamoshiach.
Yes women dress to impress other women not other men. It is no different than and probably stems from the competitive nature taught in school. We are taught to “outdo” one and other and it doesn’t stop at graduation. As a matter of fact it goes full steam ahead because of shidduchim and how difficult that parsha is. Young girls going to Chasunas get their hair done professionally, get their make-up done professionally, have dresses custom-made, wear the highest heels, etc. All to stand out from the crowd and be noticed. Why? Because those “gorgeous girls” are going to attract the shadchanim, the mothers of the boys, etc.
Could you imagine we agree on something?
Although I wouldn’t place the blame squarely on the schools – a mother has an obligation to teach her daughter about this issue and be a role model as well.
Mod-80 the root of dressing extremely attractive does stems from the desire of a woman to look attractive but most frum girls who have no relationships with boys b”H don’t dress davka for men. They might enjoy being looked at by men, but most frum girls and women do dress untzniusdig for various reasons like not being taught the basic halachas and the importance of being a tznua.
I think I’ve said more than enough on this matter. You can go ahead and have the last word.
LOL mod. I like that you wrote that after your statement. I basically agree with you, but its the designers who are working to attract the men, not really the frum women.
Not that it makes clothing more tzanua, but its an important part of philosophy.
Whatever might or might not be wrong with trying to have “too many” Chumros, it isn’t 1/1000th as bad as dressing like a prutza.
but its the designers who are working to attract the men, not really the frum women.
And goyishe women too, in today’s immoral culture especially, are just obssesed with trying to get the men to look to AT LEAST look at them.
What non-Jewish women do is really irrelevant to what Jewish women do. I wish we could concetrate on the Jews, rather than bashing non-Jews for no reason.
The designers? Fair game.
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