Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel

Wolf: By that argument, you are positing that “frum” clothing stores could sell miniskirts and sleeveless shirts or any pritzus of their desire. Sorry that does not “cut it.”

I again stress (a separate point) that when someone sins in regards to tznius, they are not only going to pay for transgressing the law themselves; they are going to be held responsible in the court of courts for the transgressions of thousands of others (passersby) made by her enabling them to see her in that state of undress. Even for that fleeting moment of seeing her, before quickly turning away from her pritzus state. (Of course if anyone looks any longer than the moment to realize her pritzus, it will cost them in court too.)

Wolf: By that argument, you are positing that “frum” clothing stores could sell miniskirts and sleeveless shirts or any pritzus of their desire. Sorry that does not “cut it.”

Why not? I wasn’t really discussing miniskirts and sleeveless shirts, but the reasoning still applies.

My wife is allowed to dress as such in front of me in private. I don’t believe there is anyone who disputes this. That being the case, if she were to wish to dress that way in the privacy of our own home when we’re alone, why shouldn’t she be allowed to purchase said clothing?

The Wolf

Was the lesson taught by the Gemara [Yoma 47a] which relates that Kimchis had 7 sons who became High Priests because she was so modest that “the beams of her house never saw the hairs of her head” (She would always keep her hair covered even in the privacy of her own home) lost?

Even putting that aside, I don’t think any a frum person can rationally argue in favor of frum stores selling pure pritzus, which is what Wolf’s point would allow.

I think it would be important to bring to attention another tznius issue that has become common amongst even those who are normally careful and care to do the ratzon Hashem.

My wife was recently buying a shaitel and being cost concious told me that there are places that cut it for much cheaper that are cut by men. It didn’t sound right to me, but she told me that even the very frum families use them. I decided to ask around anyways what the rabbonim hold, and almost all that I asked held that although someone in a profession has a heter of dealing with ladies, but not if the profession is actually beautifying them. Even those who felt that m’dina it may be Muter held that it’s definitely not proper.

For those of you who do care to do the right thing at least ask your rav, for besides you maybe doing something wrong, others are also learning from you.

All the berachos that a person and his/her family receives for keeping the halachos of tznius, are probably even more so where we are willing to spend some extra money for this beautiful mitzvah.

Ze’evMan: (Don’t know how to make it italics)

“Does the average woman keep her hair covered all the time (meaning while sleeping, showering, etc.?) No. I’d be willing to bet that over 99% of the women in Klal Yisroel today don’t hold to such a standard. So Kimchis’s example is not relevant for most of us.”

I’m not sure exactly why “the average woman” is what sets the standard of where people can reach.

The fact is that women CAN attain these goals. My wife has a separate snoode that she uses for sleeping in, so aside for when she showers or cuts her hair its probably always covered.

The only difference between the gemarah and nowadays that I can see is that in those days the bathhouses were outside the house, so the walls of HER house would not have seen when she bathed.

The whole point of that gemarah in my opinion is to teach exactly the opposite of what you are saying. Yes, it is true that Halacha leaves much leeway for what you can where and when. But the gemarah is teaching that a woman SHOULD strive to the utmost to be as tznius as possible.

In addition the pasuk “hatzneya leches im Hashem elokecha” teaches that ikkur tzniyus is from Hashem, not from other people. So that would mean always not just in public.

Similarly a man can be yotzei limud torah with the mishnah that we say from pea’ah after birchas hatorah. But the mitzvah of talmud torah is a mitzvah tmidiyus and so a man is required to learn every free moment not just the two halachos that someone in the shteibel says after shacharis to grab another kaddish.

At one of the classes I attend, Rebbetzin mentioned there is a woman who has exceptional children and she is very careful covering her hair, as soon as she washes her hair, she puts on a shower cap. It’s a matter of realizing that we should remember before who we stand at all times. It’s the realization that we are always before Hashem, even in the privacy of ones home.

Kasha,

Kimchis doesn’t matter because it’s still not obligatory according to ANY rav. So, instead of answering the question that wasn’t asked, how about answering the one that was.

Specifically, since there is no question that a woman is allowed to wear whatever she likes when alone with her husband and in private, why should she not be allowed to buy any article of clothing that she can use in those circumstances?

The Wolf

So (at the very least) we see how beneficial it is to keep [the much maligned today, I should add] so-called “chumras”.

The question that was asked? No a “frum” merchant should NOT be selling pork or pritzus — even though it may be mutter to feed the pork to your dog or use the pritzus for some benign utility.

I’m not sure I understand why my wife’s avodah makes you glad. My comment was only to point out that just because people may not do something doesn’t mean they cannot. I’m pretty sure that was self explanatory.

I think another way to look at it is that stores should sell clothing that conforms to the highest levels of tzniyus for its community (ie. me’ah she’arim shouldn’t be selling skirts only 4 inches below the knee while in America skirts should only begin there).

At the very least the store owner should feel a responsibility to make sure that anyone who tries on clothing in her store should be allowed to buy it only if it conforms to the her own standards of tzniyus. How can I sell you something that goes against my own principles?

Those women that feel a need to dress for their husbands in private should be able to buy the clothing that they need in a private venue. The same way we deal with any other issues that are bein ish l’ishto.

The only reason I can think of not to practice this way is that maybe it would make women who are not interested in maintaining the levels of tzniyus of her community would end up going to a mall where she might buy even worse clothing.

Wolf, whats wrong with under garments?

I KNEW I shouldn’t have added in underwear as that would sidestep the issue. 🙂

I was really going for lingerie shops. Should they be closed down, according to your viewpoint?

The Wolf

So was Kimchis a fanatic who went overboard with “chumras”? Or should we encourage future Kimchis?

I’m not sure what lingerie is other than some under garments.

Suffice it to say, lingerie is more than undergarments. If I get more explicit, my posts probably won’t be approved.

The Wolf

“At the very least the store owner should feel a responsibility to make sure that anyone who tries on clothing in her store should be allowed to buy it only if it conforms to the her own standards of tzniyus. How can I sell you something that goes against my own principles?”

DerechHamelech firstly, its not the store owners responsibility, and secondly everyone has their own level of tzniyus-it does not make any sense to force shoppers to conform to the owners personal opinion on whether something is tzniyus or not-its the shoppers. They will have their own din vecheshbon after 120-it has nothing to do with the owner.

I would like to add that many stores have a sign in the dressing room that say Halachos of tzniyus, as well as a mirror and a chair for that purpose.

Wolf:

Not to be picky, but I would stongly argue that the shops in question, if done correctly (no pictures in windows, only women allowed in, etc.) is a Mitzva, as per the Nashim Tzidkanios in Mitzrayim.

Wolf:

It is possible that Kasha means that without the gedarim required it would be an avairah i.e. pure pritzus, but with them, it is a mitzva, i.e., the proper gedarim help it become a davar shel Kedusha.

EDITED

People CAN reach a certain standard, and perhaps they SHOULD want to. At the end of the day though, nobody has a right to upbraid someone for not upholding very high standards that are well beyond what is required lihalacha.

I think Rabbi Reisman, on one of his tapes said it best. He stated that (he didnt offer an opinion why) Bais Yaakovs simply dont teach tznius properly. Focusing on inches and hemlines is one thing. Truly explaining what Tznius really means, might make the difference in doing what halacha requires and striving to be like Kimchis (he didnt say the last sentcne, those are my words, trying to convey his idea).

Why should we hold Kimchis up as a role model we CAN and WANT to emulate? I learned that a married woman’s hair is reserved for her husband’s enjoyment. Maybe women should ask their husbands before they take on chumros that minimize their husbands’ rights.

Chanie, I don’t know about you, but covering up my hair does not make it look pretty, underneath. It is constantly in a pony tail and does not look like it use to Pre-sheitel days so to say it’s for my husbands’s enjoyment isn’t correct, trust me, with what it looks like now, I am glad I have to cover it up.

Mazal – if your husband doesn’t necessarily care about your hair being long, there are many short styles that hold up fairly well under hair-coverings.

I think that frum stores which sell pritzus clothing, (pritzus is pritzus – it means very fitted tops and the like, not denim skirts which some frum women wear and some don’t) is like a grocery store owned by a frum Jew who carries treif foods in his store.

A lingerie store is a completely seperate issue.

Chanie, it’s not necessarily to have kids who will become Kohen Gadol’s, but to raise good decent kids. In times like these, don’t you think we could use all the help we can get? I wrote above about a woman who has really wonderful children and she is known to be very careful with covering her hair even in her own home. No one is saying not to show your hair for your husband. There is a time and place for that and is a Mitzvah to be beautiful for him. But when you are home alone, it’s just an awareness that we are before Hashem at all times.

The Chazon Ish paskened that a woman has no right to support her husband’s learning by selling pritzus clothing (and I can assure you he wasn’t talking about today’s pritzus).

Chanie, your posts are the epitome of leitzonus.

msseeker, Unfortunately sometimes people engage in leitzonus when they find a mitzvah difficult to keep.

“Was the lesson taught by the Gemara [Yoma 47a] which relates that Kimchis had 7 sons who became High Priests because she was so modest that “the beams of her house never saw the hairs of her head” (She would always keep her hair covered even in the privacy of her own home) lost”

Forgive me if I am mistaken, and by all means PLEASE correct me, but I was under the impression that it was KIMCHIS HERSELF who when asked why her children were so special, said that her exceedingly beautiful children were the reward for the beams of her house never seeing a single hair. If I am not mistaken, then it’s well and good for her to believe that about herself, but it really is nothing more than her personal conjecture.

The Gemarah clearly is teaching an ideeology that women should be tzniusdig, but this story, like many stories, is meant to illustrate a point, not to be taken as a p’sak halacha, I would think.