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Daniel Rosen- I personally don’t have very expensive things or eat in restaurants. I just don’t think that something that didn’t exist in previous generations should be brought as a proof for now. I also don’t think it’s any of my business thinking into why someone does spend thousands of dollars on things they could have spent way less on.
“your “live and let live” attitude is responsible for much destruction in klal yisroel and is in apposition to what gedolim have been trying to change for decades.”
little harsh dont u think? my “live and let live” attitude applies to how others spend their money… not to domestic and sexual abuse, fraud and cheating of non jews and government, and baseless hatred of Jews which NEARLY ALL frum people have an attitude of “live and let live” or “lets just ignore” about, which in my opinion MAY have a little bit more to do with the destruction in klal yisroel then whether someone spends money on designer items or not.
“Your statement “And YES I do think that Rabbis telling people how much to spend on their weddings is completely ridiculous and authoritarian.” gives me an incite into your lack of reverence for our gedolim.”
you’re right. I am not allowed to have an opinion that differs from some rabbonim. next time I will follow blindly without thinking on my own. what was that about destruction of klal yisroel?
your words are very hurtful, but i’m sure hashem doesnt care about that, he only cares that you keep worrying about how people spend their money
sw33t: I assure you my statement was in no way intended to attack you so much as what you had passionately professed. Regarding your statement: there is a fine line between disagreeing and disrespecting them by calling what they say “ridiculous”.
I agree with the others here that flaunting these luxuries and even purchasing them leads to harm.
What is wrong with giving tochacha to klal yisroel about this? I do not understand.
There’s no Issur here. This is ridiculous. I’ll go stand at a street corner and start giving Tochachah about how people breathe too often. This is just silly. Read the introduction to Mesilas Yesharim. Nothing in there is an obligation or a Halachic statement.
Daniel: Mesilas Yesharim is not Halachah. It is a very good outlook on life and is (if you even read the entire Sefer) meant to be done in steps. So who are you to tell others where they’re holding by? Maybe they aren’t at Prishus yet?
Also, not one Orthodox Rabbi?? I guarantee you I can find you many, many Orthodox Rabbonim who think it’s ridiculous to tell others how to spend their money from an anonymous message board.
Daniel, if someone, who walks on a street with Gucci pocketbook, will hold in their hands a receipt stating they gave a Tzedaka for the same amount of money as pocketbook cost, will you sleep better?
This is ridiculous Daniel! If someone wants to spend money on a Gucci bag, that is their business and completely not yours!!! Maybe if you were a gadol hador or were a complete tzaddik that was perfect in all areas you would be able to go around telling people that they should try to fix their bad middos (or in your case not spend so much money.) Until then how about sticking to things like working on yourself and not trying to work on other people.
Daniel: Do you know what Mesilas Yesharim is? Have you ever opened it up? It is a level-by-level guide to growing. So tell me, in which level is the statement you quoted? Because not every step in there is for everyone immediately.
I am with Daniel on this one. My rav actually recently gave a shiur on this trying to get people to change. It’s a real chilul Hashem to see frum people wearing these things. I always feel disgusted when I see a frum Jew driving a new Mercedes. It is 100% not the derech of the Jewish Mesorah and has never been a real issue in Europe- only since Jews came to the US. There is no Mahamad anymore!
So if I had more courage I would go around rebuking the people who drive mercedes along with those that drive on shabbos.
On a side note, even many non-Jews I know at work are embarrassed to wear expensive designer brands and would not wear it even if they got it as a gift. To see Jews doing this is a real chilul Hashem.
New
GUCCI chocolate Leather GUCCISSIMA Tote BAMBOO handles snap bag NWT Authentic!
$699.99
This is from ebay. People who know how to shop smartly can get the same bag that you mentioned for $880 less.
It definitely is. The point is that you don’t know what others are paying for their belongings. You are accusing people of spending crazy amounts of money on certain items that can instead be used on better things such as tzedakah. However since you are not behind their computers as they are doing their shopping, there is no way for you to know just how much they are spending in reality.
Daniel: When you give me a Halachic work Assering buying expensive things, I’ll start listening to you (citing the Rambam you just quoted would help). Until then, you found a line in a Mussar Sefer (albeit the most prominent of Mussar Seforim) and decided to create a new Issur out of it. Something tells me that you missed the point of Mussar.
Daniel: You are fighting an admirable but futile battle. People will rarely change their spending habits/addictions and at best be insulted and at worst will accuse you of being a jealous loser who covets what wealthy people have. People will not hear what they do not want to hear- such is the way of life.
Daniel: Interesting. First of all, that Rambam is talking Davka about a Talmid Chacham because the Torah will be Bezuyah if he acts improperly. Thus, for an average person there isn’t the same problem. Second of all, these aren’t quite Issurim. If the Rambam had meant them as Issurim, he would use the word Assur. He doesn’t. Third of all, you should read that entire Halachah that you quoted. He says that just like a Talmid Chacham should not look as if he is overly rich, so too he should not look as if he is overly poor.
Do if he doesn’t west a Gucci belt, he looks overly poor?
The focus seems to be on Gucci as a name brand.
For those concerned about wasting money on name brands, does this hold true for Borsalino as well?
For those concerned about wasting money on name brands, does this hold true for Borsalino as well?
In theory, yes. In practice, no, because Borsalino makes a much higher quality product than the competitors, both in look and in durability.
Although I think it’s better not to buy name brands (much less prestige brands), it isn’t necessarily wasteful to spend a bit more on brand-name products. I’m not sure if it’s always true, but this quote attributed to John Ruskin is worth considering:
There is an entire section of law called Trademark, whose entire purpose is to enable the existence of brands. They are very valuable to society.
What about rebbes buying silver tipped canes?
More to the point, who are you to decide whether I need something or not?
As many of you know, I have a photography hobby. Some of you have seen my pictures and know that I can create some very nice images with my camera gear. You can often find me walking in the street with $1500+ of camrea gear(camera body, lens, tripod, flash, filters, etc.).
You may say to yourself “why does he need such expensive gear when you can get a simple point and shoot camera for $70? Lots of people take nice images with point-and-shoots.” But who are you to make that determination for me?
The Wolf
Wolf, you paid more for a better product, not as a status symbol. That’s a different debate (I’m with you on that one).
There is actually an opinion, I don’t remember who I heard this from, that rich people should davka buy expensive things. Like that they won’t be stingy with what they give to the poor. Going with your example of the Gucci bag. If a wealthy woman has a $10 bag, and a poor woman wants $20 to buy a bag, she’ll say here’s $5- you should be able to get something decent. Whereas now she might say here’s fifty- get a wallet to go with it.
cv: No one (or nearly no one) does that
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Daniel, do you have any proof or this is only your assumption? How do you know what amount of money people give to Tzedaka? Are you standing behind their shoulder, when they cut a check? What make you think you have the rights to tell anybody what to buy? After people gave 10% of income to Tzedaka, they can spend their money in any way they wish, even if you don’t approve it.
Perchik: Money is the world’s curse.
Tevye: May the Lord smite me with it. And may I never recover.
(Fiddler on the Roof)
When you get cursed with this nisayon, please send us an itemized list of your expenses and expenditures. Until then, kol tuv and don’t judge.
Mods- is there a reason why you took down my post? (That is, I think you did- it’s in yellow now while it wasn’t before.)
we didn’t take it down. it was overlooked. have some patience. 🙂
Daniel: Let me ask you something. That Rambam says that a Talmid Chacham shouldn’t make it appear as if he is a member of the wealthy class. Where does he say that a Member of the wealthy class shouldn’t look that way?
Mods: Sorry- it’s just that it was up and then it went back down, so I was a bit confused. Apologies :).
it’s ok
Daniel, I’m curious as to your narrow focus. Some suggestions. Visit every Jewish newspaper and demand that they stop accepting ads that entice people to go away for Pesach or buy expensive goods. Insist that wives shave their heads and not buy expensive sheitels. walk into chassidish shuls and lecture people who spent thousands on fur trimmed streimels.demand that tzedakas publish exactly how much of every dollar disappears as administrative costs. Question YWN as to why they advertise 2013 cars
Sam and lesschumras, I think you’re missing Daniel’s point. He is not railing against gashmiyus per se, or against spending money. He is specifically referring to brand names, where the appearance and quality of the product alone do not justify the cost. The reason people are willing to spend the extra money is just because of the name, and the status which it affords.
DaasYochid I do not perceive a difference. People buy certain goods paying handsome money if they are convinced the goods are worth the price. It does not matter if their returns are in the form of financial gain, perceived satisfaction, higher social standing, valuable business connections, or something else. Of course if we buy machinery for a workshop we can expect the balance to be tilted very differently from (even the same person) buying a lady’s handbag, but all those elements coexist to a point in every purchase.
Most people who prefer Gucci, Armani, Borsalino, Lexus or any other brand name will justify it on the basis of “quality.”
Skeptics will say they bought it for “status.”
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