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I absolutely agree that frum educational institutions cultivate low self esteem, if not actively then at least passively and implicitly.
At least your brain will be washed before you donate it. (That’s about all I could make out from your last post).
VM, the whole world suffers from low self esteem, the frum just don’t mask it with gaavah as much.
LOL DY.
Vogue, how about some specifics? What exactly did you say that your teacher thought was chutzpadik?
Re college brainwashing: Come on people, if you haven’t had professors who tried to push their views in college, you haven’t attended college.
so you had one teacher who went on defense cuz she didn’t know how to answer or maybe what to make of your question. And you can’t really include the non-jewish pro-donor teacher in your judgement of your school in its bais yaakov aspect.
You had a bad experience with someone somehow telling you you wouldnt succeed in something, if i understood correctly. But because of a few teachers who you didn’t get along with, and because of a single girl in a big school who didn’t mesh with her particular school and then had struggles which may or may not have had a connection to her schooling, you are saying that bais yaakovs brainwash negativity, low self esteem, that deviating will cause failure… But that’s not true.
As a professor I’d like to comment on the allegations of brainwashing by colleges. At most such institutions is hard enough to get undergraduates away from drinking, partying, and other irresponsible behavior to get them to pay enough attention in class to become subject to brainwashing!
I hardly think being a medical school professor qualifies you as an expert on undergraduate education.
Saysme, it’s pretty endemic to the frum education system that teachers either don’t know or are afraid to answer legitimate questions (and with the history of backlash, I don’t blame them for being afraid…) The reality is that lots of people say similar things about bais yakovs and yeshivas. The people running them (and their defenders) are free to ignore the complaints – after all, the OTD kids don’t care and this is the system that the gedolim instituted so it can’t have any flaws and if it appears to that is because the observers are mistaken.
But the option is also there to listen to the complaints, think through them open-mindedly and critically, and perhaps achieve some meaningful improvement that way.
vogue- you are not alone in your feelings. i do love my BY i think its a good school and the mission of Sarah Shcnerir amazing and noble. the problem is that some teachers have lost the who idea of BY and waht it was made for. First of all i think its amazing that 100 years ago it was shunned to think girls should go to a by and yet know we are shocked if a girl doesnt go there and yet when it comes to beleiving in female rights we are so against it yet thats exactly how bais yaakov started! (atleast where i went for by)
the fact that they dont welcome questions bugs me to no end, they want girls to be strong in their emunah yet if they ask a simple question of any sort they pounce on them seeing it as a attack agains the torah chalilah! its horrible how some girls go years with out having awnsers because they are scared how teachers will react to them.
dont get me wrong,im complete shomer shabbos, fully tznius… i love bais yaakov adn what it stands for, but im not sure if i agree to what it has become 🙁
Regarding the Jewish educational system, I did not have the opportunity to attend yeshiva (and of course not BY) but I have noticed that most yeshivot do not teach kol haTorah kulah. As a result, many graduates are unprepared to deal with the challenges of modern society — and not because of inadequate prep in math, science, or history.
As an example: Many graduates of the Jewish educational system who become disillusioned with Judaism end up seeking out Eastern religions as a reaction to the perception that practicing Judaism is about extreme behavior. When I meet them I point them to the section of Rambam’s Hilchot Deot where he brings down as binding halachah that one must pursue moderation in everything with the exception of the humility/arrogance spectrum. Not one of these off-the-derech folks had ever heard that.
Another example: While the Torah faces no challenge from science, those who don’t understand either or both sometimes think that there is one. Again the Rambam has an approach, not often taught, that addresses this adequately for most.
A third example: Many midrashic and aggadic texts seem fanciful and bizarre on first reading. The approach of Rabbi Avraham ben HaRambam, printed as the intro to the Ein Yaakov aggadic compilation, is an approach that can be used to address this while preserving respect for the text and the authors. That may be why the publishers of the Ein Yaakov put it there! Ramban also clearly agreed with this approach — see his comments in his recording of the Disputation of Barcelona. For difficult Torah narratives examples of Rambam’s approach in his Guide to the Perplexed can offer similar solutions.
A fourth example: As we approach the day on which many observe Yom HaShoah we face the very painful question of how HaShem could allow such horrible things to happen to so many good people. There are of course many answers, some of which will be more satisfying than others to different people. Rambam again has an approach that in the past was more popular but has fallen out of favor, in which he restricts Divine Providence to groups rather than to individuals.
Now, many will find this rationalist approach based on Rambam and others with a similar machshavah cold and unappealing. That is fine; they should follow a different approach. The actual number of ikkarim in Judaism is quite small: 13 according to Rambam, 6 according to Crescas, 3 according to Albo. But it should be made available at least to students for whom it is necessary! And all students should understand that it is a perfectly acceptable hashkafah that was held by some of our greatest sages.
In two of the works of the great frum novelist Herman Wouk (still alive at the age of 97) there is a brilliant yeshiva student who at the age of 15 has a crisis when he concludes that Shedim (demons) can’t possibly exist; that they don’t make any sense. Because of this doubt he is expelled from the yeshiva and he goes WAY off the derech. A good rebbe would have congratulated him, pointing out that while that is not the majority opinion, it was the conclusion that no less a figure than Rambam came to!
As you probably guessed, I do find Rambam’s approach to many aspects of Judaism quite appealing. There are other approaches of course, and the entire spectrum of such approaches should be made available to students as appropriate. This is not my original opinion, it was originated by someone far, Far, FAR more brilliant then me, Shlomo HaMelech:
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(Mishlei 22:6).
Vogue:
“My definition of brain washing in this case is that, for me at least, and some of the secular teachers pointed it out at the school I went to, we would be told about how we HAVE to do ____________ and if we don’t do it in our future, it will cause harm to society”
If a school teaches that you HAVE to marry a working boy and/or work yourself or it will cause harm to society, would you call that brainwashing?
“Personally, I think the fact that people say asking questions is bad needs to end and when it changes to “as Jews, we need to understand the religion we are practicing, ask away!”
I fully agree. But that problem does not mean that the entire BY system is broken, or brainwashing.
“There needs to be someone who knows about all the schools in a community that can help people choose the right school for them so that they don’t have these issues. There is more to a school than the hashkafa.”
That is not a problem with the school system; the problem is that people are going to the wrong schools. You can hardly blame that on “the system”.
Gammit:
“Some people do call Bais Yaakov a cult.”
Some people are morons.
writersoul:
“Everyone is saying that By and Jewish education is not brainwashing. It is giving over information. These same people are saying that college, by offering liberal courses, IS brainwashing. Again, by giving over information.
What’s the difference?”
I agree; there is no difference. Both of them are giving over their worldview to their students; that’s what schools do. But to call that “brainwashing” is ridiculous.
If a school teaches that you HAVE to marry a working boy and/or work yourself or it will cause harm to society, would you call that brainwashing?
Absolutely. If schools repeat the message when it is not relevent just to state it as a fact (and there are those on the MO side that do) “When you are in Yale….” that is just as much brainwashing as the sems.
Re college brainwashing: Come on people, if you haven’t had professors who tried to push their views in college, you haven’t attended college.
I can attest this is inaccurate.
the fact that they dont welcome questions bugs me to no end, they want girls to be strong in their emunah yet if they ask a simple question of any sort they pounce on them seeing it as a attack agains the torah chalilah! its horrible how some girls go years with out having awnsers because they are scared how teachers will react to them.
Unfortunately, teachers in BY are mostly ignorant (and got their position by being “rebbitzens” or being able to toe the party line). The response Vogue got was probably a reaction by the teacher to something which she was covering up her inability to answer the question. It is also likely (IMHO) that she was also covering up her own feelings and questions on the system as a whole by reacting so strongly.
As Rabbi Bender has said in the Yated many times, there is no such thing as a bad question.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Benjamin Franklin
I went to three different schools ( my family moved a lot) one BY, one MO day school, and one in the middle.
All had very positive aspects, as well as negative.
But brainwashing was prevelant in all three.
and as per college,
yes, some professors do push their views on you.
but unlike in the Jewish education system, you are not required to believe, let alone follow, any of them.
Just because someone works in Chinuch doesnt mean they really are qualified to be there.
Someone could be a relative of the Menehal or a good fundraiser and have gotten the job.
The brainwashing accusations could just be unqualified and jaded teachers
vogue: this is a greater problem for people who do not have a strong family bond. every institution in the world whether it be BY, Yeshiva, college, graduate school, societies, clubs, etc. will try to impart upon you its own brand and even within each institution you will find individuals who will go beyond and feed you extremist views. This isnt a BY problem. If you come in with strong family hashkofos these hashkofos will teach you how to filter the grains from the husks and allow you to grow in any environment.
I think that everyone here has a very low threshold for listening to other peoples views. I went to a Bais Yaakov school, and yes teachers would try to convince us to marry learners and support our families through teaching. I’m not convinced. If they would be brainwashing, I would be. They’re merely trying to convince their students of their opinion. Vogue- one thing that’s important to remember is that not all teachers are smart. Only ask questions when the teacher is smart enough to answer. Even when your teacher is smart, make sure you sound curious, not rhetorical or arrogant.
Gamanit: There is nothing wrong with tring to convince your students that you are correct. Brainwashing is when the convincing becomes subliminal. For example, when you are learning Math and the teacher says “When you will be in Yale, this will come in handy” is brainwashing, as Yale was brought in not as the class, but to send a message that you will be going to Yale as a fait accompli. That is opposed to a teacher getting up in class and giving a speech on the topic of why everyone should go to Yale, which would not be brainwashing, as the message is direct, not subliminal.
From Wikipedia (which admittedly is not the best source):
Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, menticide, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual “systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated”.[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual’s sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
(Emphasis added)
GAW- that’s exactly what I was trying to bring out. The teachers try to convince you of their opinions, but that is not necessarily brainwashing. It’s almost always not brainwashing in high school.
In seminary it’s a different story… you’re in a foreign country without your family and are more vulnerable and the seminaries know that. Also, they need to have their graduates convincing other girls to go in order to make money.
My seminary principal and many teachers tried the first technique of brainwashing, saying when you’ll be teaching and supporting your husband you’ll appreciate this tip giving a random money saving tip in a random lesson.
One of my relatives came home from seminary talking like someone who was brainwashed. None of her opinions were anything like when she left to seminary, and had no arguments to support why this was her new opinion when we spoke to her. She kept these opinions for almost a whole year, by which time she was married and supporting a husband in learning. Then somehow she woke up and became herself again.
One of my relatives came home from seminary talking like someone who was brainwashed. None of her opinions were anything like when she left to seminary, and had no arguments to support why this was her new opinion when we spoke to her. She kept these opinions for almost a whole year, by which time she was married and supporting a husband in learning. Then somehow she woke up and became herself again.
Very unfortunate, but not uncommon at all. This is why I say time and time again that Sems are one of the major causes of the divorce crisis (and Roshei Yeshiva say that you should not go out with a girl out of Sem until she has been deprogramed, B’Zeh Ha’Lashon (and I am not at liberty to say who)). I really feel bad for both the girl, her husband (who thought he was getting one thing and it now getting quite another), any children, and both sets of parents. Nebuch 🙁
GAW Boruch Hashem in this particular case they ended up working it out and they both look really happy now. You never know what’s really going on, but they seem okay.
Gamanit: Ken Yirbu. Too many times it just falls apart, Chas V’Shalom.
Kanoi: My point. Just don’t call what goes on in colleges brainwashing, either. (Not directed at you. In general, that just seemed to be a prevalent attitude on this thread.}
Brainwashing is when the convincing becomes subliminal.
Do you mean like, for example, constantly singing Torah Tzivah Lanu Moshe to an infant?
DY: No.
GAW: Why?
Do you believe that colleges brainwash? (Separate question)
GAW: Why?
Why what?
gavra_at_work: Please tell me which institution you (or your friends) attended where no professors tried to push their views.
From now on, I am going to use the term “push their views” instead of brainwashing.
As someone who has taken “courses” in a secular institution (and who just today attended a panel on diversity among university faculty), I think there’s a substantial difference between the Jewish school experience and the college experience.
College deals with adults rather than children. Their identities are more fully formed and independent, and therefore their opinions are less subject to manipulation.
Furthermore, in college, the ideas are pretty easily separated from the purpose of the education. You (almost always) don’t learn geometry to be a triangle, or government history to become a politician or constitutional law to become an abortion provider.
Contrast that with the frum education system, where knowledge and orthodoxy are one and the same with accomplishment, embodiment, and success. Just as an illustration, if you went to college because you wanted to be an economist so that you could design markets to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, you would be really, really upset if the top professor in the field for that school spent class talking about how all decent economists believe there should be an active baby market, and organ market, and cocaine market and that restrictions against child labor are depriving families of a rightful source of income for no purpose, and that corporate tax is the greatest injustice since WWII.
Well, frum classes are all like that. The teachers are presented as role models, the goals are embodiment as well as learning information, and viewpoints other than those of the teacher are not tolerated.
gavra_at_work: Please tell me which institution you (or your friends) attended where no professors tried to push their views.
Please post your real name, address and social security number, and then we can talk.
Seriously, I have no problem with anyone “pushing their views”. Why else would anyone post in the CR?
GAW: Sorry, I was referring to your post above, where you said that singing “torah tziva” to a small child isn’t brainwashing.
Why? In fact, it seems like it fits very well into the whole popular, sci-fi definition of the term, whether you argue that that’s a good definition or not.
What is the difference, to lead into my second question, between this (or rather yeshiva education) and college education in terms of brainwashing?
Veltz: I agree. It’s the lack of separation between “church and state” if you want to call it that- the fact that what you learn is not only possible but rather expected to be applied in real life, unlike college in which it’s perfectly possible and accepted to walk out of there without any new opinions. Possibly missing the whole point of education, but still. Call it “plausible challenges to previous opinions.”
“viewpoints other than those of the teacher are not tolerated.”
Is this true of all Orthodox schools? I don’t think so.
I haven’t been to all Orthodox schools. All the schools that I have been to did not tolerate conflicting opinions from students. The only frum institution with which I have any personal knowledge of a different attitude is Ner Yisrael in Baltimore, which has some divergence among the rebbeim. I imagine that YU is like that as well.
Vogue: The difference is the difference between a secular, areligious (I just made up the term, unless it exists and I’m just unaware of it- I mean it in the same sense as amoral- meaning devoid of religion, not anti-religion) school and a religion-centric school. The public school couldn’t care less whether you agree with the Regents test. A Jewish school will care about whether you agree with what they consider is the right path, as they don’t want you following what they consider is the wrong one. Either way, you’ll probably take Regents exams. If you argue with kollel, you may not learn in kollel or marry a guy who does.
Bais Yaakovs and Colleges have different goals
At a certain stage in life, thinking people reflect back on the educational system they went though, and can critically evaluate it. They will conclude that not all of that they were taught is true. This applies to all educational systems.
The emotionally healthier people learn from this critique and continue to develop. The others are disillusioned and sometimes devastated by this realization.
Vogue, yes, it’s definitely somewhat messed up, especially considering the the fact that one is supposed to teach one’s son a trade, the ketubah obligation of the man to support the wife (not vice versa), and Chazal’s strong views in favor of combining Torah study and work (Avos 2:2). In truth, there are a variety of ways of being a good Jew, and the man learning/woman working model is only one of these ways. But there are a few things to keep in mind.
First, it is extremely common, perhaps the norm, for secular Jews and non-Jews (of all social classes and groups) nowadays to spend their 20s being economically dependent on their parents or the government. This can mean living with one’s parents, being a grad student for 5-10 years and living on poverty wages (often with food stamps), moving from one random low-paid job to another, getting a college degree in an impractical subject and then aimlessly traveling around, etc. There was even a long NY Times magazine article recently called “What is it about 20 somethings?” So being economically not on solid ground in one’s 20s is kind of normal. As long as you eventually figure out a way to get a reasonable income sooner or later, it’s not really that crazy.
Second, in every generation Judaism changes, and sometimes these changes are positive, or negative, or both positive and negative. Even if there are certain practical or hashkafic distortions (such as the emphasis on fulltime learning as a lifetime occupation for the masses) in a certain generation, we should see things in the big picture, and try to steer Judaism in the right direction as best as we can, while doing the things we know we’re supposed to do — Torah, mitzvos, maasim tovim, etc. Eventually people and ideas will arise to correct whatever distortions are going on in a particular generation — and we can encourage that process through our own individual contributions.
“you are not required to believe, let alone follow, any of them.”
As a professor, I regret that I must say that is not always the case. There exist academic fads and while undergraduates can ignore them and survive, that is not the case for graduate students and junior faculty.
As a professor, I regret that I must say that is not always the case. There exist academic fads and while undergraduates can ignore them and survive, that is not the case for graduate students and junior faculty.
I just want to quote this for posterity. Since everyone got so mad at my original comment.
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