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So basically, I feel that as a graduate of the bais yaakov system that there were many flaws in the system my list is here.
1. Brainwashing
2. Mixed messages. On one hand I was brainwashed by my school that if I don’t go to seminary, I will be screwed, on the other hand the same people saying that told me I am not good enough for seminary, so they set me up for failure.
3 random rules
What do you think
I think it’s a perfect system, but the people who run the system are only human.
Brainwashing – It’s NOTHING compared to college.
What do sunflower seeds have to do with brainwashing?
Dude, have you been to a real college? Or is your perception of them just part of your brainwashing?
Please define brainwashing.
Doesn’t sound like you actually learned in Bais Yaakov. This is simply the battle cry of any anti-Bais Yaakov.
Brainwashing – It’s NOTHING compared to college.
Which college did you go to that attempted brainwashing? What was your major? Islamic studies?
I feel the word “brainwashing” simply means education, just an education with which somebody does not agree.
Very similar to lashon hara or motze shem ra. It will only be labelled as such if a listener feels strongly against that position.
If anyone believes something which I don’t, they were brainwashed.
Doesn’t sound like you actually learned in Bais Yaakov. This is simply the battle cry of any anti-Bais Yaakov.
Suprisingly, I agree. A Bais Yaakov (such as BJJ in Israel, or (I would imagine) Bais Yaakov D’Rav Meir in Brooklyn) does not “brainwash”, as in subliminally and continuously direct/presume someone in the direction wanted with statements like “When you marry a Kollel Man…..”. That is left to the Sems.
So let’s make it clear? Did they, like, strap you in a metal chair and tape wires on to your head and pull the switch?
Brainwashing..Ha! Gotta love that word!
But seriously, though, what are you talking about? And please be specific?
The only “brainwashing” that occurs in college is by those who never went and say how “evil” it is.
ZD,
1) How can they brainwash in college if they didn’t go? Your comment is ????? ?????.
2) For you to possibly infer that there is no brainwashing in college indicates that either you were totally brainwashed, you never went to college or you were already inclined to their kruma shitos already.
There is one other possibility, but it is not nice, so I will not mention it.
Daas Yochid and the rest, what they mean is that some people in the BY system have distorted (not Torah-true) views. Usually, they are distorted in the right-wing direction. These distortions can be contradictory. And the talmidos are fed this stuff.
mdd- Isn’t BY as a whole a distorted torah view in the first place? Before 1917 such a concept did not exist and even after it took a while for BY to be accepted by the “mainstream orthodox.”
Mdd, you’ve just illustrated my point.
If I was brainwashing someone, I would also make sure to brainwash them to think they weren’t brainwashed.
ZD -“The only “brainwashing” that occurs in college is by those who never went and say how “evil” it is.”
While I agree that there is plenty of brainwashing in certain Yeshivos and Seminaries – there is by far many colleges and universities that engage in brainwashing also.
They did a poll once and found that the percentage of young people in college were predominately Liberal minded, but the same people polled after they entered the workforce many had become Conservative. This is because the realities in America make living with Liberal ideals extremely hard. In a way it’s very similar to Communism -it sounds great for e/o, but in reality it’s only good for the ones on top. The American public in our generation are extremely foolish and have voted in an extremely liberal Gov.!
mdd:
“what they mean is that some people in the BY system have distorted (not Torah-true) views. Usually, they are distorted in the right-wing direction.”
Aha. So, if a school endorses a right-wing hashkafa that you disagree with, they’re “brainwashing” people.
I find it interesting how teaching right-wing hashkafos is “brainwashing” people, while teaching left-leaning hashkafos is just being “open-minded”. If you want to argue that the Bais Yaakov/black hat hashkafa is “not Torah-true”, go right ahead; but don’t hide behind double-standards and false labels.
SF, actually “Pele Yoetz” was an advocate of women’s Torah education.The only possible real be’dieved is learning Chumash be’yiun.
popa: You’re assuming everyone is competent.
“Brainwashing” is a loaded term — it’s better to speak in terms of persuading people to adopt a highly specific worldview, and then evaluate that worldview to see if it’s problematic.
Some people criticize Bais Yaakov for giving their students the very strongly-held idea that marrying a full-time learner and being a kollel wife is the best thing in the world and if you don’t do that you’re a nobody, or at least on a much lower madreiga than you really should be. I don’t know if this is true — I don’t have personal experience with BY. But it does seem like a very limited and harmful worldview to impose on kids, since most will not live up to the standard, which itself is rather new in Jewish history.
If I were starting a high school, I would have the students learn a variety of frum hashkafic perspectives based on various classical and contemporary sources, so they don’t have an artifically narrow perspective, and can gravitate toward and further explore teachings that appeal to them personally.
In many cases, college (including the professors, course materials, and fellow students) really does persuade people to adopt very specific world views. In most colleges, especially liberal arts colleges but also larger universities, there is a very liberal, secular, anti-religious atmosphere. Deeply religious or conservative people tend to abandon their beliefs, and if they don’t, they are usually are too afraid to share them with anyone. It is much worse in the humanities and social sciences, compared to more technical or professional fields, but a few required electives in the liberal arts can be enough to transform a student’s worldview. I don’t think this is true at all colleges, and certainly not at places like YU or Touro, but it’s very widespread.
SecularFrummy – “distorted torah view”…
What do you posit that the BY system’s relative novelty has to do with its relationship to the Torah?
No, it is not a distortion of Torah. Girls need to be taught what a Bas Yisrael is and does, etc. and this is what BYs do.
As for the OP, sorry to hear about your experience.
I wouldn’t extrapolate this, though, to be reflective of the entire system world-wide.
Health
Most people who attend college are not doing it for some altrustic reason, they are not trying to help the poor in Harlem or Africa.
They are doing it because they think it will help them make money, Lots of it.
but the same people polled after they entered the workforce many had become Conservative.
Of course! When they didn’t have money they wanted it from others, and now that they were making money they didn’t want to give it away!
augh, i was brainwashed in bais yaakov!! They told me to dress b’tznius and with taste, and to be put together! They ingrained in me that tefilla is soo important and that it’s really for my benefit! They drilled into me to be machshiv Torah, to the point that I will never put down a gadol even! They even made me shy away from shmoozing with non-Jews and i ‘naturally’ have acted that way in college and work! They even heavily stressed the role a bas yisroel plays in her life, her future family, and klal yisroel, with the way she behaves, dresses, and her actions! (gasp!!)
yes, i’m kidding around. But brainwashing is an extreme word. And even if there are some teachers in some schools who DO push push push a full-time learning kollel lifestyle forever as the ultimate way of life, it’s by no means all teachers in all schools.
popa: You’re assuming everyone is competent.
At brainwashing? I sure hope not.
It would be amazing if we first agree on what “brainwashing” means so that we can figure out whether it’s good or bad and whether it takes place or not.
popa just assumes that he is competent… he’s experienced. Personally I think brainwashing is convincing someone by using repetition or other such methods versus logic or trusted sources.
ZD -“Health -“Most people who attend college are not doing it for some altrustic reason, they are not trying to help the poor in Harlem or Africa.”
Noone said they were. But lots of students are influenced by the left-wing agenda that some schools have. There are many students who are either against or don’t care about the Toeiva agenda, but after going to college they become Pro-Toeiva.
Vogue, that was vague.
mdd- So if you are doche that it is a bidi’eved, why would one be in favor of it l’chatchila?
HaKatan- I refer you back to the post I was responding to. If it isn’t some distortion of torah, why did it take time for it to be accepted by mainstream orthodoxy?
SF, according to the conditions of our generations, it is a total necessity.
Aha. That’s what you meant by brainwashing?
Vogue- generally when someone was brainwashed they end up agreeing with the person that brainwashed them. That doesn’t seem to be the case here.
So it seems that your complaint isn’t against the “system”, it’s against a few insensitive individuals.
It’s actually what cults do as well. Some people do call Bais Yaakov a cult.
Is it just me, or is this topic annoyingly full of undefined words and getting worse?
Cults, “believing in yourself” brainwashing, chaos. It would be easier to understand what people are posting if they would say what they mean instead of using buzzwords.
Having the belief they can succeed at what? Is this an objectively verifiable line of inquiry? If a 21 year old seminary graduate said that I can’t make it as a doctor, I wouldn’t mind the lack of faith, but if the 21 year old seminary graduates teaching in my bais yaakov all did, I might complain about the oppressive environment and stupid teachers.
Seems to be a lot of negativity on this thread which is unfortunate that we don’t do a better job with chinuch that people don’t feel this way. Just wanted to share a thought from the Alter from Kelm. He says that the greatest part of our chinuch is that things become second nature and that the biggest pitfall of our chinuch is that everything is second nature
Sorry, just some semantics on here- this is really not making sense. Not meant to be an attack on anyone’s beliefs, but still:
Everyone is saying that By and Jewish education is not brainwashing. It is giving over information. These same people are saying that college, by offering liberal courses, IS brainwashing. Again, by giving over information.
What’s the difference?
One could argue that liberal arts colleges teach this material in a convincing way with a peer pressure argument- this is the right way and people who don’t believe in this are intolerant and wrong. One could also argue that this is the way that BYs teach. We are right, this is why we say so and everyone else (including those LACs) is wrong.
Or perhaps it’s because one thing you agree with and one thing you disagree with.
This isn’t to say that I necessarily believe that the two belief systems are on equal footing, or even apples and apples. It’s just to say that perhaps we should rethink our definitions of brainwashing. One could argue that any method of conveying information which is received and adopted could be brainwashing.
So you think Bais Yaakov likes to cultivate low self esteem? That’s ludicrous.
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