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A certain poster’s obsession with pursuing relationships and marriage with multiple women based on his contempt for R’ Gershom is a bit infantile but no longer entertaining.
FYI to Dorah: Rabbeinu Gershom’s Cherem *only* applies to Ashkenazim. It doesn’t, and never did, apply to Sephardim, Teimanim or any of the other non-Ashkenazim. Many of those Yidden have continued to have multiple wives up to the modern era, in contemporary times. That’s just as beautiful a life practice as any Ashkenazic way of life on this issue. It’s a simple as that.
And if you would read my last comment, immediately prior to your potshot, you would see that I made a very clear distinction between Ashkenazim on one hand and non-Ashkenazim (such as Sephardim, Teimanim, etc.) on the other hand. Reading comprehension is a critical skill.
Maybe it’s self entertainment. Everything has it’s place…………..
@Gadolhadorah: To say that being see walking together in a public park is “assur” is a bit of an overreach and @UJM would probably concur with that. I would say that it falls into the category of “it’s just not done in our circles”. @UJM has already provided the rationale for that and thus, I have nothing to add.
Some men should have multiple wives, but on the women’s terms. That way the wives can share the burden.
Ujm, I’ve seen rishonim who say that it was extraordinarily rare to have many wives in the times of chazal – this is from rav yaakov antuli, one of the chachmei proventzia in melamed talmidim. He says that Hashem created adam and chava as husband and wife, not two or three women. He has an interesting yesod that many things aren’t expressly prohibited, but the Torah tells us stories which hint to us what Hashem wants
I saw someone else mention that the torah hints to this by calling co wives “tzaros”, in a very negative expression, with the only mention in chumash being by a ben soreh umoreh
The melamed talmidim writes more…saying being something that most people would never think of doing, because it’s hard enough to provide for one wife. Only by a king does the Torah have to specify an issur, because only kings could support many women.
“כי כן בא הסיפור [בפרשת בראשית] שאשה אחת נבראה מצלע האדם להיות עזר כנגדו, ולא נבראו שתיים, כי הן [=כלומר, ריבוי הנשים] על הרוב לצער ונזק, והוא שאמר ‘ודבק באשתו והיו לבשר אחד’. ואף על פי שלא נאסרו בתורה שתיים נשים או יותר, כבר קדם לנו כי הדברים שירחיקם השכל – יספיק לתורה במניעתם בדרך סיפור. וכשם שלא אסרה התורה השיכרות בפירוש, והספיק לה ברמזים בסיפורים, כן לא אסרה התורה לקחת נשים רבות, כי מי זה אשר ימלאנו לבו לעשות כן והלואי שיספיק האחת ובניה. אמנם המלכים, שממשלתם רבה בעושר ונכסים, הם שהיה הצורך להזהירם שלא ירבו להם נשים, אבל שאר אנשים אין צורך להזהירם, כי נזהרים הם מעצמם על זה”.
RebYidd23: Let’s work on your idea together for the benefit of the non-Ashkenazic communities.
Avira, how was this issue looked at outside of the Ashkenazic communities? For example, among Teimanim, Moroccan Jews and some other Sephardim that still practice it even up to contemporary times. They have no Halachic sources or gedolim that approve of it and/or are even complimentary of it if practiced under proper circumstances? In some communities (i.e. Teimanim) it wasn’t that uncommon.
The Baba Sali had three wives but I’m not sure if any overlapped with another.
Can you come up with one specific instance in the thousand years before Rabbeinu Gershom besides for the Reish Gelusa?
N0m: To simply answer your specific question, Rabbeinu Gershom himself had multiple wives.
An additional point is that even for Rabbonim or regular people that the Mishnah or Gemara or later Seforim Hakedoshim tell us, for whatever reasons, was married to “Plonis”, there’s usually no way to know that he was *only* married to Plonis and had no additional wives. Chazal and the Seforim Hakedoshim aren’t giving us their genealogical family trees. They don’t give us a list of all the names of their children either; if the Seforim somehow inform or indicate who their child was (or that Plonis father was whoever), that doesn’t exclude the existence of other children who aren’t mentioned anywhere. They mentioned a specific wife for specific reasons; but that doesn’t exclude the possibility of him having other wives. Why are you assuming he (they, as in the plural of those hes) had only one wife?
Two out of three Avos also had multiple wives.
Avira, regarding the commonness of having multiple wives you wrote that it was rare to have many wives. That’s a mathematically obvious point (and therefore needn’t even be said). If it weren’t rare to have many wives (IOW, if it was common for people to have many wives), then obviously it would mathematically be necessary for many men to remain unmarried (since many other men had many wives, leaving an insufficient supply for all.)
So its lack of commonness was never a reason for the practice to not exist; otherwise the permissibility of multiple wives would never have existed. Therefore, even with (and when) having multiple wives was permitted and accepted, it obviously was only (mathematically) viable for a select minority. And in order for any individual person to have multiple wives, he would need to have the financial and emotional wherewithal to support them. Most do not have that. But that isn’t, in of itself, a reason to disallow the practice.
Rabbeinu Gershom, at his time in history, decided that for the Ashkenazic community it was causing more downsides than upsides, enough to outlaw it at the time. But even he put an expiration date on his ban since he acknowledged it wasn’t, in of itself, necessarily a bad thing for everyone. He left it for future generations to reconsider. Which they did, post-expiration, and decided to continue the cherem. But if Gedolei Yisroel at some point in current or future generations reconsider it again and decide its time has ended, they can discontinue the cherem against it. (Rav Avigdor Miller made this point once in one of his Q&As, available on recording.)
Another interesting thought is that throughout most of history, when polygamy was practiced, the financial implications of multiple wives made it impractical for most, since the general household arrangement throughout history was the husband worked and the wives were at home. Nowadays, when polygamy is mostly phased out, for the last few decades with most wives working, the financial implications of having multiple wives have essentially reversed, and a family with multiple working wives could do better financially and have more income and earnings potential than a family with only one wife.
It’s interesting (buckle your seatbelts, since I know some of you are going to get conniptions and start posting a flurry of angry replies), since with the shidduch crisis being mainly an issue of not enough single men and too many single women, ending the Cherem may be a viable solution.
Dear Ujm,
I’m wondering how much you really know about this topic. The point is made either way, that it was never an obvious fact of jewish life. Even where and when it was practiced, it wasn’t flaunted like a group of tribal chieftains. For instance, is it permitted for a man to walk to shul with his two wives and no children?
You can post it a zillion times but it won’t change the fact. The same way it is rare to have multiple wives, it will continue to be a rare concept in halacha. It will not be embraced as okay for some people. Right or wrong that’s just the way it is. Nobody minds if you accept this or not. It’s the real truth. The question being put to you is, do you have any clue as to why this is the reality. It’s a big part of society. Are you just so socially off? Scared of women? Clueless in general? Or just trolling?
Whatever your reasons are don’t bother me. But I thought I would clarify why other posters get annoyed at this topic. It’s not because of some modern post liberal position. There is a part of the conversation you are missing or avoiding.
OP: I think the terms you may be looking for are Ahuv and Ahuva, as in “my beloved”.
Besuros Tovos…
Reb Yosef’s obsession with having some form of intimate relationship (marriage or some polyamorous arrangement) with multiple women is his issue and obviously triggers multiple clicks and responses (all simanim of a really talented troll). However, none of that addresses the simple and obvious question in the OP dealing with a comfortable vocabulary for referencing or introducing a young women who you are getting to know. I’ll go back and reiterate that whatever is simple and respectful (“my friend” or something along those lines) is probably the best starting point.
Dear He-Who-Must Not-Be-Named,
You wanted to bump that badly?
The topic of multiple spouses comes up on average less than once a year in this forum. I didn’t raise it in this thread, I responded to it being raised. Despite its great infrequency, the few times it has come up has caused great conniptions, tantrums and hissie fits by the same few posters who simply cannot even tolerate a discussion on a legitimate issue that they disagree with. The only obsession is on the part of those who violently disagree with dialog on this.
Having multiple wives is similar to eating knitiyos on Pesach. Yet these posters who get bent out of shape over any discussion regarding polygamy, have no issues when a poster discusses knitiyos on Pesach. Both are issues where Ashkenazim and non-Ashkenazim have different customs. Indeed, the kitniyos ban is even more severe than the polygamy ban. Whereas Gedolei Ashkenaz today can once again permit polygamy, as Rabbeinu Gershom anticipated and built in an expiration to it and instituted it in a repealable mechanism, they cannot permit kitniyos.
“Having multiple wives is similar to eating knitiyos on Pesach..”
Well, now that you explain it that way, it seems so logical.
Reb Dorah: If one wouldn’t be steeped in modern liberal Western culture, and rather think entirely in terms of Yiddishkeit, the logic would be quicker to grasp.
The mathematical issue is only a present day factor, with the boys being so close in age to the girls. In previous times the husband was much much older than his wife, and certainly than his youngest wife. [In fact the Kohen Gadol could only marry a girl of up to 12 .5 yrs a besula. So if his wife died and he had no other, he had no choice BUT to marry a young girl before Yom Kippur.]
Reb Yosef: Actually I was being sarcastic but you are entirely correct that I’m viewing the world through an entirely different lens even after adjusting for the well known divergences of ashkenaz/sepharic halachic norms.
Dear YWN Username:
The very term “significant other” is a disgusting goyish terminology. We Yidden only have a Choson/Kallah or a Husband/Wife. Nothing else and nothing in-between. Until a couple is engaged they are strangers to each other, no different than when they first met on their first date. It is pure pritzus for any outsider to refer or discuss them as a thing or for either of them to discuss their dating, whomever he/she is, with someone other than their parents/rebbeim.
Dear Ujm,
Strangers until they are engaged? So one do I’ll get engaged to a stranger/ What about the girls I know who I have no intention of dating? Are they strangers? Is this pritzus because thank goodness your not my father or rebbi and I asked you these questions? Do you only prey on strangers out of tznius concerns?
Back in more refined times, the term was my “steady”, as in, “He and she are going steady.”
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