Brachos on Pizza

It is a difficult Halacha in Orach Chaim 168.

Taken from Halachically speaking:

Pizza: How Many Slices is a Seuda?

When eating pizza one is faced with the question of

how many slices would constitute a shiur kevias

seuda to require washing and bentching?

Many poskim say that even one slice of pizza is a

meal for which one is required to wash and

bentch. 76 Others say the shiur is two slices, 77 while

others say that two slices would only constitute a meal if they are eaten with something else, such as a

knish. 78 As mentioned above, there is a dispute if

pizza is a meal food or a snack food. Therefore, one

should decide why he is eating the pizza: if it is for

a snack, then he should wash and bentch if he plans

on eating more than two slices, and if he is eating it

as a meal then he should wash even on one slice. 79

have to wash and bentch according to everyone. On buying a

slice of pizza and not a whole pie in regard to being a shaleim

see Avnei Yushfei 3:21:8.

page 24, Chai Moshe page 283, see Bais Avi 5:7-12.

Years ago, I asked this question to the Rav of the shule where I grew up. His answer: “When the Rebbetzin makes pizza, I wash first and eat a slice of bread.”

Assuming most people usually eat pizza as a meal and not a snack, it is always hamotzi. The cheese and tomato sauce is irrelevant as the Magen Avraham writes in the end of OC 168 (don’t remember the seif katan) that only sweet fillings that make something desert-like render a pastry pas haba’ah b’kisnin and not cheese etc. Even if the dough is made with fruit juice instead of water, it doesn’t help unless the dough becomes too sweet to eat as a meal, which is certainly NOT the case with pizza.

I think the crux of the issue boils down to whether or not pizza is considered a snack. I don’t think anybody would consider two slices a snack.

Sometimes one. I’ve certainly eaten one slice of pizza “to get the edge off”. On the other hand, sometimes I’ve sat down, and eaten one slice of pizza, with intent that this would be a meal.

With the price of pizza going up nowadays, it’s getting harder and harder to classify it as a snack.

Feif Un: Definitely a snack in that case

Here is a source that talks about it.

http://mi.yodeya.com/questions/1818/pizza-and-washing

Rav Yakov Kaminetsky ztzl personally told me and several other bochurim that pizza is pas habo bekisnin. He said that one slice is mezonos if eaten without anything else. If you’re eating something else, even if not directly with the pizza, then its all mitztaref. In this case you must wash and make a motzi. Two slices is always hamotzi. This was before frozen pizza. Frozen pizza is often made by semi baking the dough, making it into bread with the requirement of hamotzi, then adding sauce and cheese, which does not make it into pas habo bekisnin. Also, and this is important, square pizza is always half baked first and then sauce and cheese so its always a motzi. Rov poskim rishonim and achronim do not agree with the Mogen Avrohom and say that any type of covering or filling is pas habo bekisnin. By the way, kokosh cake has the same halochos as pizza because the kokosh cake dough is kneaded, made into isoh, not just mixed like cake batter. Which means if you eat a piece of kokosh cake at a shabbos kiddush and then eat cake and crackers and kugel and chulent, you have to bentch.

i dont know of any sources but i once asked Rav Dovid Feinstein Shlita what the brocha is for pizza and he said for 1 or 2 slices you make mezonos

theprof: incorrect the mechaber is clear like the mg”a and the mishbah brurah. so its r yakov vs them, rov poskim dont hold like that. and rov is not made up from all the brachos “books” ava at ur local bookshop.

There is another aspect – – that it may be that the rishonim in paas habah b’kisin are merely examples of snack-bread, but the real principles is it meal-bread, or snack bread. Is it meant to be filling? If that’s the case, one could say that pizza is a filling food, and even when you are not be koveah suedeh, you would have to wash, just like regular bread. A similar line of reasoning could be made for a bagel dog – even though it’s memulah, it’s meal bread. Or pancakes. Or blintzes. All would have this question. They are memulah, and may even be made with fruit juice, but it could be that that is not the crux of the issue, but the issue is – is a single blintz a snack? Or is it a meal food, merely you are snacking on it.

Is pizza beztem a snack food – like cake ? Isn’t it betzem a meal? I mean, you could also eat bread as a snack.

There is no stand alone profile of snack and food, if one snacks on bread it is still bread, the proof is the fact that the rishonim disagree what pas habah nkisnin is, why waste time, whatever is eaten as a snack is kisnin, bread is bread. obvsly thats not the ruler.

OP says:

“I once asked a rav what bracha pizza is and he said hamotzi and there is NO source for saying mezonos.”

Does anyone else find it irritating when someone states their view by claiming that “there is NO source” for the opposing opinion?

milchig bread” which is assur

Cool. I had no idea I was sinning every time I buttered hot toast and ate it. 🙂

The Wolf

Holy,

Honestly, I’m not particularly interested in what you have to say; given your childish – and insulting – and sourceless! totally sourceless! – way of expressing yourself. Please , do not trouble yourself on my behalf; I do not require your arrogance or ignorance. I do not need your assistance in learning, nor advice.

I sincerely hope one day you learn how to speak like a Ben Torah.

I refuse to engage the arrogant in a Torah discussion. Look at other threads, I have what to say. But not to you.

The Torah is never expressed with arrogance or a patronizing tone. One may be sure that the speaker has never entered true Halachic knowledge; as the Chazon Ish explains – that without middos, Torah can never be attained.

I am quoting the ruling of the Minchas Yitzchak, in the first chelek. I did not say that was the Halacha; I said it was a possibility. I was bringing in another possibility. This is the halachic process, not arrogance.

And please drop the “due respect” garbage. Either speak respectfully, or don’t. But if you must speak like a child to satiate your ego, at least be brave enough to leave off the silly disclaimer. I will not take part in discussion with you further.

Buttering your toast is OK.

Of course it is. There’s no issur on *making* milchig bread. It’s only on eating it. 🙂

The Wolf

Wolf-

Can you define the criteria for your selective application of logical thought?

The Derech HaChaim a.k.a. Maaseh Nissim writes that there is no machlokes and Rav S.Z. Auerbach zatal paskened this way. The Biur Halacha brings a similar concept from the Maamar Mordechai.

holy brother:

If you would know whom you addressed, you’d retract that last comment b’zrizus.

There is no question that pizza, even if not made with juice but made with pure water, is called pas habo b’kisnin. And all poskim agree with that concept. However even pas habo b’kisnin can return to the concept of actual bread if eaten as a meal, not a snack. And Rav Yakov ztzl said exactly that. A person eats 1 slice as a snack and at 2 slices, there is a concept of going according to normal practices which makes it a meal rather than a snack. 2 slices is a definite lunch meal concept. Adding juice alone gives the dough a possibility to be mezonos, if the eater adheres to certain criteria. If you buy a mezonos roll with tuna in it and eat it in your car or at the zoo etc, its mezonos because that’s not the way a person is koveah a seudah. However going into a breakfast place and ordering mezonos roll with scrambled eggs and salad and coffee and sitting down at the table, that is a no brainer koveah seudah and you have to wash. The same would be if you order 1 slice of pizza at lunch with a salad and a drink, that’s koveah seudah. If you take it home, its koveah seudah. This is the psak halocho of every current respected accepted posek. Any other psak is using lots of kulos.

Popa did you even read my post? I don’t think so. For one thing thank you for citing halochos that agree with what I said. Pizza is not pashtida at all, nothing even close. Your 2nd paragraph is an exact definition of pizza, thank you so much. You should also really read what you write after you write it. You do a nice job of contradiction. Pashtida that the mechber talks about is analagous to what we call Chicago pizza, that is its covered top and bottom. Since the main idea of this dish is to become full, it has meat or fish or cheese which also fill, automatically it isn’t a snack but rather kevuas seudah. Whereas 1 slice of plain pizza is quite often eaten as a snack and is therefore mezonos.

Popa that’s OK, stand exactly to what you said because basically what you wrote just proves with citations what I had said earlier. Again thanks. I really do know halocho and I know it quite clearly. Yes I’m bragging.

pappa_bar_abba: way to go u are 10000% right!!! and most poskim even todays in ey, agree. theprof there is no dif btwn pizza and pashtidah, the fact that pashtida is covered on all sides is a “chiluk” without a “mechalek”, only qs left are 1. is the halacha like the piskey harid, pashtus of mechaber, mg”a and m”b’ or like the tanya rabsy taz. 2. is the dough changed to make it pas habu bkisnin regardless if its duznt have the kulah of memmulah. and one more thing if ur bragging im willing to take u to the task in ANY birchas hanehnin shailoh!!!! and no i wont tell u whi i am, ud be quite surprised!!

Also rabosai, consider this gem: In a compendium on chagim, I found a quoted maamar of the Chazon Ish regardng kezais. He says that Hakodosh Baruch Hu knew we would be subject to exiles and wanderings, thus in his mercy, he gave us natural signs for the shiurim. Hence a kzayis is the size of an olive in every time and every place relative to that place. The responses to this fell into two basic groups: Group A) that not what he said, thats not what he meant, he said it but not lhoros, he didnt mean it that way. he meant it but didn’t say it …..

Group b) took it and reasoned that the largest possible olive in our times is the the shiur (California Colossal?) and so a Kzayis is about 20 ml or the (outside)volume of two soda bottle caps, or a small size match box, and this is the shiur for all mitzvos and bracha aharona.

Now if we go with group B, one slice of pizza is clearly more than two or three kzaisim, and for the deah that says that kvias seudah is based on quantity, One slice shouold be hamotzi and benching.

So Hello, how many colossals go in to the average or large egg or achilas pras. The theory postulated was very un niskatnu hashiurim. Next time you have pizza, try squashing it into a ml gradated measure. I will do the same, and we can compare slice statistics.