Bracha on Corn Bread

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  • February 20, 2012 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #602133
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So then I made corn bread in my cast iron pan. And then today, I’m wondering whether it is hamotzi.

    Here is the recipe I used:

    1 1/4 cups coarsely ground cornmeal

    3/4 cup all-purpose flour

    1/4 cup granulated sugar

    1 teaspoon salt

    2 teaspoons baking powder

    1/2 teaspoon baking soda

    1 1/3 cup fake milk (I used sunflower milk)

    2 eggs, lightly beaten

    8 tablespoons melted fake margarine. (I can’t believe it’s not margarine)

    It is adapted from the one on the food network website.

    So, you can see there is more corn than flour. And you can see there is no water (except what was perhaps in the fake milk?)

    But what is the bracha?

    As far as taste, if I had made a bread with all flour, and also water, which tasted that sweet, I would say it is still hamotzi.

    As far as normal usage, corn bread is certainly used as bread, and intended as such. It was the staple bread in the South.

    I dunno.

    February 20, 2012 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #888049
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    See, the problem to me, is that my rules just don’t seem to work in this case.

    Let’s start from the beginning.

    1. It is probably mezonos/hamotzi as opposed to shehakol, even though it is mostly corn, since the grains take over and become automatic ikkar.

    2. It is pas, not maaseh kedeira.

    3. So is it pas, or pas kisnin? Well, let’s do our 3 tests:

    3A. Is it crispy? No.

    3B. Is it filled with fruit or garbage? No.

    3C. Is it nilosh with mei peiros or shuman? Well, that’s an issue.

    (the fake milk has water).

    Seems it is mostly nilosh with egg and sunflower. But still, it does not taste mostly like egg and sunflower, it tastes mostly like ???- if you include the corn taste. So I don’t think that tree is the right way to bark.

    But what about the corn? Do we just say that the corn is battul to the wheat and the only question is there is more milk and egg taste or more wheat and corn taste? Or does the wheat itself have to be stronger than the egg and milk (which is bizarre, since the wheat is weaker than the corn!)?

    I still dunno. I made hamotzi, like the OU website said to. But I’m still not completely convinced.

    February 20, 2012 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #888050
    twisted
    Participant

    lefi aniyyas daati, first of all 1/4 sugar to two cups flour might be sweet enough to be pas haba bekisnin even w/o the flour issue. Second even if you were to be kovea seuda, would you have kzais/pras? Unlikely with all the other chazerai in it.

    February 20, 2012 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #888052
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yah, I’m not so convinced.

    1. I didn’t think it tasted that sweet. It makes sense it wouldn’t; it really is intended as mazon.

    2. Your second point is directed at saying that I shouldn’t bentch?

    3. Just what are you calling chazerai?

    February 20, 2012 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #888053
    hello99
    Participant

    hamotzi

    February 21, 2012 12:21 am at 12:21 am #888054
    longarekel
    Member

    I think it’s hamotzi. Here’s why: Like you pointed out, the dagan flour is the ikkar. Now here’s the important point: The fact that it is nilosh with mei peiros does NOT make it kisnin unless it tastes sweet (or different than water) enough to make it different than standard bread. Since you say it tastes like regular bread, it remains hamotzi. As far as bracha achrona it is bircas hamazon(bentching) because you have a kizayis of dagan flour in every three baitzim of corn flour (two or three zaisim in one baitza). The other ingredients is the subject of a dispute whether they are mitztaref to the shiur dagan, and in my opinion they are.(you can even make a case for the corn flour being mitztaref but there i’m not so sure) To summarize: Treat it as regular bread l’chal davar. Anyway I love these kinds of questions. Thanks for posting.

    July 27, 2012 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #888055
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, I made it today for shaloshudes, and made it real milchigs, with milk, butter, and buttermilk.

    Not because it isn’t real pas for purposes of that din–I think it is. But because I only made enough for one meal tomorrow on shabbos.

    July 27, 2012 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #888056
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    What is “fake margarine”? Any relation to “fake plastic”?

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