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is there anything wrong with a boy learning during the day and going to college at night?is there something that says he wont get a good shiiduch?
Everyone gets a shidduch to what they are.
100% not!
mot at all, it shows ambition and a desire to be a provider.
Why dont you stand outside the Touro building on Ave J and E.16th and ask the boys what they think. Or their parents. Or the girls who they date.
real-brisker said it best.
I did this for two and a half years.
To those who don’t like me: let that be your guide.
To those who do like me: let that be your guide.
The Wolf
I actually find this combination very appealing, shidduch-wise.
always happy27: this is something you need to decide for yourself. You need to decide what you are looking for. there is not wrong or right.
tmb – thanks for the haskama (glad to see you agreeing with someone for a change)
I don’t understand the question.
It is the right thing to do if it is right for you. Most everyone will agree with that.
Guys who go to college at night get dates, but usually different ones than they might have gotten.
This makes sense since they are a different person.
This is good since that is who they are.
i wouldnt want to marry a dude that wants that much info of me anyway
theres nothing wrong with it. Not everybody is cut out to earn a whole day, and some people are not cut out for a very low-end lifestyle and therefore need a college education.
Wolf-Its not a question of who likes you. Its a question of what you think the right derech is for you. I dont think it should matter at shidduch time. BTW, I went the same route you did for
4 1/2 years.
a person should do whats right for him. he’ll hopefully find a shidduch and probably have a better marrige than people that do the wrong thing to get a good shidduch
“is there something that says he wont get a good shiiduch?”
Depends what you call “good.” A boy learning half-time will get different type of dates then a boy learning full-time; figure out which type you want to get married to.
@always happy:
The actual problem is in the way you phrased your question: “is there anything wrong?” Based on this terminology, you are going to receive a variety of answers from people who have different views of what the right thing to do is. Some people feel that not only is this not wrong, it is the responsible thing to do, and a boy who doesn’t go to school is doing something wrong by not taking steps to provide for his family. There are those who might say that yes, a yeshiva bochur going to college (even at night) is wrong, because college is no place for a yeshiva boy, and it is taking him away from his learning at this most important stage of his life…etc. All these responses also contribute to the relativity of what a “good shidduch” is. after all, “good” is an extremely relative term, and the point of reference of the responders is diverse, so only you can really answer what this means for you. Perhaps your query needs adjustment: what are the pros and cons of a learning boy going to school at night, and how will this impact his shidduch options; how does the yeshiva community view boys going to school at night; etc. These are valid questions to ask the klall, because it is not a matter of right/wrong, but of opinion, and people can describe their choice and how that worked (or didn’t work) for them.
This question will be personal to each individual and his life circumstances. It’s hard enough to make this decision as it is in “real” actual life, so when the question is posed hypothetically in a public forum, I am questioning if there is an actual answer.
Understand what I’m saying?
I did this for two and a half years.
To those who don’t like me: let that be your guide.
To those who do like me: let that be your guide.
I don’t like you (jk) but I go to college at night and learn during the day.
Of course there’s something wrong. College is assur. Why go and demonstrate the fact that you don’t have bitachon that Hashem (via government programs and the shver) will provide? Who would want to marry such a boy?
Before an argument starts, I am presuming mamashtakah is just joking. Please respond accordingly.
Mamashtaka was joking.
I will say that I once had a long-term chavruta with a guy who learned in yeshiva in the morning, worked as a legal clerk in the afternoon, and went to law school at night. I didn’t know him before he was married, so I don’t know how his shidducim went. However, I can say that B”H he married a wonderful lady. (Am I allowed to say that?)
My Rosh Yeshiva told me to do whatever I feel is best in my situation and the Shidduchim will follow. How right he was.
I started college at night and got redd the same amount and if not more, of the same top quality girls. Girls just want to see if your sincere in what your doing. Just do what is best for yourself and all will follow.
actually, unless the yeshiva guy has the potential to become a big big talmid chachom, then he should of course learn part of the day and go to college or some vocational school the other half/night. this is the most optimal solution. one must earn a parnasa. and it’s not a chiyuv and it’s certianly not halachikly proper to put it upon the wife’s shoulders.
actually, unless the yeshiva guy has the potential to become a big big talmid chachom, then he should of course learn part of the day and go to college or some vocational school the other half/night. this is the most optimal solution. one must earn a parnasa.
actually, unless the working guy has the potential to become a big big business man, then he should of course learn all day. this is the most optimal solution. one must learn.
so right or so wrong,
tell me at whose expense should this yeshiva guy sit and learn all day. one can still become talmid chachom if one learns and goes to college. i’m sure even you know of people who have done this. and apparently, you are quite ignorant of halacha. one has a chiyuv to earn a parnasa and a chiyuv to learn. for the ???? ?? this should be the optimal and halachicky viable preference.
henry89,
you are quite ignorant of halacha. one can earn enough “Kach hi darkah shel torah – pas b’melach tochal etc.” — Bread salt and water while learning all day.
so, how DO we find those boys who are in touro. can’t stand out there on the street! Maybe touro should have a shadchan, students pay enough tuition!
so wrong,
it is you who is the ignorant one. when the mishna is pirkei avot states that it means one should not live extravagantly, rather one should live simply but one could do so with experiencing some pleasures of olam hazeh. do you know why a nazir has to bring a karbon chatos after he finishes his nazir cycle. it’s because he denied himself legitimate pleasures that one is allowed to have in olam hazeh.
so please before you comment, fully understand the sources that you are quoting.
When would one wear the monogram shirt, in yeshiva or at college?
Actually, you might find better girls if you go to school at night. Instead of being redt these timeimus girls who think that if you spend your whole life in a kolel on food-stamps, wic/section 8, government sponsored health insurance, money from your parents, money from your in laws, etc. etc. etc.
You can take and take and take and take…………
Instead of all that you take life serendipitously…..
maybe you will marry a girl with her head on right.
so wrong: Yet if someone who works for a living and pays 10% or more of his paycheck to support yeshivos and kollelim (while being 100% dan lekaf zechus that everyone there actually learns) dares to object to these people who learn all day demanding luxuries, you and people like you scream about kavod hatorah and say that they deserve only the very best. You can’t have it both ways.
henrytheignorant,
so practice Kach hi darkah shel torah without becoming a nazir.
From my experinces speaking with my many single friends, this is the type of guy they’re mostly all looking for. I think it’s becoming more achknowledged that it’s just not feasible on a one person salary these days-especially when the salary is coming from the female.
When people ask me what I’m looking for, I tell them I’m interested in who the person is-not a title (learning 1-3, 5-7 years etc). What he does during his free time and how he values his Torah lifestyle is more important that how long he’s in the Bais for.
It is the best of both worlds. You will get a shidduch with a girl who rightly appreciates that you are machshiv her need to have you actually provide what the kesubah says you will provide, because you took the time to learn how to earn a living WHILE you were learning Torah, too. Good for you! If most girls who say they believe otherwise, would be truly honest with themselves, they would recognize that im ein kemach, ein Torah.
they would recognize that im ein kemach, ein Torah.
Im ain kemach ain torah just means that if you have no food, you cannot learn. If you are supported by your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife, you are not in a situation where you have to steal, and you have fulfilled the Chazal.
Anyways, the standard of livelihood required is bare minimum. “Kach hi darkah shel torah – pas b’melach tochal etc.” — Bread salt and water – if you have that, you have parnasah. The Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8. This is what a “working person” is. Three hours a day. 8 hours learning.
What in the world does that have to do with today’s working man’s lifestyle where he works 8 hours a day and almost never even learns 3? It proves nothing that Chazal endorsed working, since working in those days meant learning 8 hours a day.
There is an obligation on every Jew to become as great in Torah as he is able. The Rambam praises those who learn all day and don’t have jobs, as the elite “Shevet Levi” of our days. Clearly, even if working is endorsed, it is inferior to those who learn.
The Rama says it is a Midas Chasidus – praiseworthy – for someone who can become a Gadol B’Torah and make an independent living, but continues that not everyone is capable of this — saying that if you have a choice between becoming a Godol B’Torah or making a living, becoming a Godol B’Torah comes first.. The Rama even brings opinions that the community should support its Torah scholars even to the point of affluence.
So wrong – “Bread salt and water while learning all day”
It is kollel on the street where I live. Every man, who learning all day in this kollel, has a cell phone, a car, lives in a nice apartment, pays for a kindergarten / school for his kids. It cost much more than bread, salt and water.
By the way, do know how much cost water? People use it not only for drinking – you and all your family use toilet not once a day, wash clothes, take a shower and so on.
I understand the girl, who married to kollel man – she made her choice, but did you ask your children if they want to live on only bread, salt and water. Do they entitled to have an apple or orange? What about diapers?
I did not hear that wording in K’tuba were changed. I believe a man suppose to support his family.
And I have a news for you. Some day, with Hashem’s help, your little girl become a kallah and YOU will be the shver, who should support her husband all HIS life. Will you able to do this? How can somebody, who learning all days of his life, to support his son-in-law, while continue supporting his own family? What if you will have 5 daughters? Are you really expect people to support you and all your future generations forever? Kollel is a place for a real talmid chacham. And real talmid chacham respects people, who give him an apportunity to learn all day.
PS. If remember correctly, Rambam was a doctor.
I’m telling you how it should be. Not what you see. What you see may or may not be the correct approach.
Kach hi darkah shel torah – pas b’melach tochal — bread salt and water – if you have that, you have parnasah.
We should not care so much about Cadillac’s, and learning Torah is what we should be pursuing.
“Kollel is a place for a real talmid chacham.”
so right
I see what youre saying, but unfortunately, I dont think thats how it works these days. Obviously there are B”H many men who dexerve to sit and learn because they have the desire and the will to do so. And that should definately be applauded. However, many people are saying that that is what they are doing–and then you look behind the scenes and find out theyre learning just beacuse they want to find a good shidduch. And then they sit in the coffee room for three hours during their mid, afternoon and late afternoon break. Meanwhile, their wives are slaving away, working full time, taking care of a brood of children, and expected to have a ive course meal eith hot cinnamon danishes on the tanle for their husbands when they come home after a long day of learning.
Like I said, hopefully this is a very small minority, but it is scary to think – especially when youre in the Parsha – what type of boy the one described to you really is.
So right, I agree that kollel, at least for starting out, is great for everyone. But on whose cheshbon?
i think that someone who goes to college is doing his hishtadlus to provide once he has a family-after all isnt it the husband who should be providing livelihood at the end of the day?!?!?!?!?! it depends on his attitude towards it and depends what his learning means to him while he’s in college. if his attitude is that he has to finish learning to go do his report or something like that, that isnt the best thing! if a boy goes to college, his torah learning should always be priority! those are the boys that are good and strong and torah means a lot to them! nothing is wrong with such a boy!
Okay, now that we’ve firmly established that Torah & Kollel is the way to go, let’s discuss college.
Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L denounced college in a Teshuva, and in a famous speech delivered to his students, published under the title “The Counsel of the Wicked” (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah, New York, 1978). There he reiterates that everyone has an obligation to become great in Torah, we should not care so much about Cadillac’s (yes, this was said in the “olden days”), and that learning Torah is what we should be pursuing, not secular stuff. He says in America you do not need college to make a Parnassa, and we should be willing to live on little, not a lot, for the sake of Torah, and that R. Nehuray’s statement of abandoning all skills in favor of Torah applies all that more today that we live in a country where you can make a parnassa without college, with no miracles needed.
There is a tape available in many Seforim stores called “The prohibition to learn in Colleges” (Yiddish), which contains addresses by Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L and Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L condemning college.
so right,
your ideals are beautiful; your perception of reality is delusional.
If you are supported by your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife, you are not in a situation where you have to steal, and you have fulfilled the Chazal.”
Please – you know that was not what Hashem commanded. The chiyuv of parnassah is specifically on the man. The Kesubah says nothing whatsoever about a father-in-law, father, yeshivah or any other person, being responsible for supporting a husband so he can sit and learn, and it certainly says the opposite, regarding the wife. It specifies exactly what the husband is chayav to provide for his wife. HE, no one else. One cannot twist that fact merely to suit a personal agenda, though clearly that is what has been done for the last several decades. There is absolutely no reason why a man cannot do both. My father and my brothers all did.
so wrong: you have not yet addressed my point.
Going to college is a very controversial thing in the Torah world. Many even litvish gedolim were very against it.
and many of them say that if thats your form of hishtadlus then go ahead and do it!
Cedarhurst- are they against Jewish / non mixed colleges too?
the term college is broad. Nowadays there are a lot of options for frum people.. I myself am in college and I think it could actually keeps some people from doing not such good stuff instead, as a result of having too much free time.
so wrong ,the Rambam who you quote uses harsh words for those who don’t go out and earn a parnasa,(btw, in case your wondering the rambam was a doctor, and if you have ever read ????? ???? you will see that rambam’s idea of pas vamelach is totally different than yours, oh but of course you must know more than the Rambam). i baruch Hashem am in a college in Yerushalayim that the entire make up is guys who learn in the mornings (whether it be in the college beis medrash or the yeshiva/beis medrash of their own choice) and take courses in the afternoon, and yes learn in the evening. and the college that i go to has produced quite a lot of talmide chachomim. As long as it is done in the right setting this is the most optimal solution for most real benie torah
is it just me who is getting sick of these identical inane repetitive threads?
i have read the various posts with interest. perhaps some of you would go out with a “working boy” but i would NEVER settle for anyone like that. what would my neighbors, friends, machaneches, siblings,etc. say. i would be so embarresed. i have been told throughout my bais yaakov years that i must marry “kollel” and anything less would be unacceptable.
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