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I would like everyone to note my protest of the boycott of Meretz in the current coalition.
Jews do not exclude Jews!!
🙂
From the Article
In a move that did not appear to earn sympathy points among fellow lawmakers
If I was the charedim, Id lay low for a while, not activily antagonize other parties or other populations in Israel and work to make themselves better liked among non-charedim. And dont say its impossible most Israelis have a positive view of Chabad
They have hutzpah to use that phrase; the chalutzim actually contribute to society, instead of mooching off it.
Also, the vast majority of Israeli society could care less whether the Haredim are in the coalition or not. They’ve made themselves into a fifth column, and are maybe half a step better than the Arabs when it comes to that.
Mr. Doniel -“They’ve made themselves into a fifth column, and are maybe half a step better than the Arabs when it comes to that.”
Wrong; I don’t think they are liked a drop better. They hate them both, but the arabs they are still scared about how far they can discriminate against them. But right now it’s open season for the Charedim.
GAW -“I respectfully disagree. Any Charaidi can get out of their “situation” (as per the anti-Arab, Anti Charaidi seculars) by “working”, while an Arab will always be an Arab.”
No, you’re reading the situation wrong. If the Chilonim’s only prob with the Charedim was working -they could pass legislation allowing them to work without army time. They picked the draft -figuring that the Charedim won’t bite. I’m sure most won’t. You think that they don’t know that the army truly doesn’t want them?So now they can treat them like second-class citizens and say “You see – if only”. The Goyim did this throughout the Golus. They used to call them blood libels. Why was the Goyim always doing the blood libel -why not simply say -“Kill the Jew”? Sometimes they did this, but for the most part not. Why? Because they were afraid the good Goyim would stand up against them.
To start treating the Charedim like the Chilonim believe – that they are second-class openly -Israel is afraid of the world reaction.
That’s why I’m calling on the US to let the world give them the title of Apartheid and start to levy sanctions, because I see through the two-faced guys like Lapid who claims the New Gov. is Not Anti-Charedi. They are simply hateful, spiteful people!
I’m waiting for Charedim to stop using waambulances and actually sit down and try to figure out the solution. Merely repeating “they hate us, they hate us” doesn’t do anything. Once you graduate sixth grade, you might have some logic skills acquired.
GAW:
The difference is that Lapid did not categorically refuse to be photographed on the first day of the new coalition together with Meretz, even if they acceded to his demands. He did say that about the Chareidim.
truthsharer:
“I’m waiting for Charedim to stop using waambulances and actually sit down and try to figure out the solution. Merely repeating “they hate us, they hate us” doesn’t do anything. Once you graduate sixth grade, you might have some logic skills acquired.”
Actually, both Bennet and Lapid have been reaching out to UTJ as an attempt at softening their chareidi-hating image. I’d call that a pretty successful strategy.
Oh, and once you graduate sixth grade, you should probably stop with the petty insults.
GAW -“And since that is what is planned, you should have no problems.”
I honestly don’t know where you are coming from. This is only planned after they go to the IDF, which most Charedim won’t do.
Here is a post from “ah talmid” about their plans for the Charedim:
“So, in fact, civilian service is NOT an option for yeshiva students (unless the IDF decides it has enough yeshiva talmidim drafted and it at its own discretion decides to allow a specific yeshiva bochor do civilian service rather than army service.) And the proposed law states that 2/3 of Chareidim serving must be in the army and not in civilian service.”
GAW:
“Seriously, Lapid stood for stopping funds to the Charaidim. Anything short of that (and looking like he is kow-towing to them) would be going against his word. He did not campaign on stopping funding to Meretz”
So Lapid wasn’t particularly excluding the Chareidim because… he had campaigned on excluding them.
Hhm.
“Besides, if the Charaidim would agree to what the coalition has decided, I have a feeling that they would be “let in”
Yeah, if the Chareidim gave up on everything that makes them Chareidim, Lapid would think about letting them in. So he has no problem with the Chareidim, as long as they stop being Chareidim.
GAW, Lapid does not just want the Chareidim to stop taking government aid. He wants them to serve in the army and join the workforce en masse; both things that the Chareidim very strongly believe is wrong. But more than that, he wants the Chareidim to integrate into greater Israeli society, something that the Chareidim have always prided themselves on not doing. These things are what sets the Chareidim apart, and Lapid is trying to destroy them precisely so that the Chareidim will no longer be standing apart from everyone else. He is trying to change the very fabric of Chareidi society against the wishes of that same society; you can’t blame the Chareidim for not being too happy about that.
Very good, Kanoi. Working em masse is wrong according to the Israeli Chareidim!!!?!
Yes, they believe that anybody who can learn, should learn. Therefore, they do not believe that people should automatically go to work, as Lapid does.
Because Lapid and others have to pay the bills for them. And even he agrees to patur the best talmidim. And the Chareidim hold that even those who can’t learn, should be in kollel
If all Lapid was worried about was paying the bills, he would be advocating austerity. He is not. What be is trying to do is force the Chareidim to become just like everyone else.
He actually does – hence less ministers in the cabinet. Stop twisting things just to say that the Chareidim are right.
Dr. Martin Sherman served for seven years in operational capacities in the Israeli Defense establishment. He was a ministerial adviser to Yitzhak Shamir’s government and lectured for 20 years at Tel Aviv University in Political Science, International Relations and Strategic Studies.
Dr. Martin Sherman
Joe, grow up. You’d say anything and quote anybody just to prove the Chareidim right.
assuredly correct.
To paraphrase Churchill – I refuse to remain impartial between the fire and the fireman
The anger at the boycott is not the exclusion from government. Had Labour won, it would have been in the course of events for them to be on the outside.
The chutzpah is on the Likud – Rightist government (albeit Likud tried). Chareidim gave Likud the majority in ’77 and ’81, saved Shamir in ’90 even though Peres offered them the better financial deal, and gave Netanyahu his majority in ’96 and ’09.
“I’m calling on the US to let the world give them the title of Apartheid and start to levy sanctions”
This is a truly disgusting comment.
I’ve spent far too much of the past four years countering this exact kind of attitude on left wing internet sites such as dailykos. I expect it from clueless leftists who don’t understand the nature of the Arab and Iranian extremists, or from the rashaim who are out to destroy us all. I don’t expect to see commenters on a frum web site allying themselves with the enemies of the Jewish people.
cause and effect
if you dare-
“They have hutzpah to use that phrase; the chalutzim actually contribute to society, instead of mooching off it.
Also, the vast majority of Israeli society could care less whether the Haredim are in the coalition or not. They’ve made themselves into a fifth column, and are maybe half a step better than the Arabs when it comes to that.”
then-
“I’m calling on the US to let the world give them the title of Apartheid and start to levy sanctions”
“Chareidim gave Likud the majority in ’77 and ’81, saved Shamir in ’90 even though Peres offered them the better financial deal, and gave Netanyahu his majority in ’96 and ’09.”
Not true for 1977. The government consisted of Likud (45 MKs), DASH (15 MKs), and Mafdal (12 MKs). That’s 72 MKs out of 120. No charedi ministers or deputy ministers. (That was the best showing for religious Zionists until this past election.)
Also not true for 1981. The government consisted of Likud (48 MKs), Mafdal (6 MKs), Tehiya (i.e. Geula Cohen, 3 MKs), Telem (i.e. Moshe Dayan, 2 MKs), and Tami (i.e. Aharon Abuhatzira, 2 MKs). That’s 61 MKs out of 120. No charedi ministers or deputy ministers.
Charedim did save Shamir in 1990 — but he only needed saving because they had supported the only successful no confidence vote in Israel’s history. Charedim gave Rabin his majority in 1992, abandoning Shamir for the second time.
Charedim were indeed the margin that gave Netanyahu his majority in 1996, but Netanyahu had won the popular election and was guaranteed to be PM no matter what. The same thing happened in 1999 when Barak won the popular election and charedim joined the government.
The only time that charedim did make the difference among the elections you listed was 2009.
“They’ve made themselves into a fifth column, and are maybe half a step better than the Arabs when it comes to that.”
This is also over the top. The description fits Neturei Karta, but most charedim won’t have anything to do with NK.
CH -“I expect it from clueless leftists who don’t understand the nature of the Arab and Iranian extremists, or from the rashaim who are out to destroy us all. I don’t expect to see commenters on a frum web site allying themselves with the enemies of the Jewish people.”
Yes Charlie, it had to come to this because the current Israeli Gov. is out to destroy Yiddishkeit and discriminate against Charedim. What I don’t understand is that you stand up against my comments, but don’t stand up against the current Gov.
Is Zionism more important to you than True Torah Judaism?
Joe,GDTHRYRHBEFWGHJYJTYJRJY!
Secondly,my point is that the arguments have to be sound.You are not impressing anybody here with worthless arguments!
GAW, +1.
GAW:
That may be true, but at the end of the day Lapid is still not just trying to protect his own piggy bank. He’s trying to impose fundamental changes to the nature of Chareidi society, changes that the Chareidim believe are completly wrong.
He has absolutely no such right. If be doesn’t like it, he can stop paying for it; but he has no right to tell us how and how not to live our lives. We live our lives according to the dictates of the Torah and of Daas Torah, not some ex-journalist without a high school diploma.
TKND, get your facts straight. The only thing the government is planing to do is to cut the money flow to those refusing to serve. And even if they were planing to put them in jail — this is what countries do to draft-dodgers.
If it’s a fundamental part of charedi society to sit and learn all day and not work, why is it only in Israel?
Are you acknowledging that Israel is indeed a Jewish state and therefore you are able to make extreme demands?
If not, why not start making demands of the US government to support (more so than now) the entire Lakewood community so that the women don’t have to work and they can stay home with the kids?
truthsharer: America DOES give kollel families more financial support (considering food stamps, welfare, wic, section 8, heap, Medicaid, free lifeline cell phone service, head start, etc etc etc) than the pittance of a couple hundred dollars that the Israeli government gives.
Mdd: No Western country jails conscientious objectors to military service.
ah talmid, Israel gives an additional stipend to kollel families, on top of regular welfare payments.
And while Israel’s payments might be small, maybe if you demand from the US a high enough amount, they’d give it. Make the demands, start protesting in the street that you want to sit and learn all day.
ah talmid, the US jailed thousands CO during WWII and has jailed a few recently. They also require “national service” in lieu of armed service.
israel’s stipend is a small pittance of $200 a month for a family of 8. it is NOT what keeps kollel families financially afloat. kollel families can get more free money living in America.
america recognizes and accepts that concioncious objectors do not serve in the military and america does not jail conciencious objectors.
ah talmid, that’s a lie and you know it.
Ah Talmid(Joe), again you are with your lies! Refusal to serve because of learning would not be recognized as conciencious objection — we’ve been through this around here. Plus, Israeli Chareim get money from the medinah in many different ways.
“Is Zionism more important to you than True Torah Judaism?”
Modern Orthodox Religious Zionism is the True Torah Judaism that has been practiced for millenia. Charedi isolationism is a relatively recent phenomenon, just a few hundred years old (and in its extreme forms, rejecting all secular education, only a generation old). And we have been praying for a return to Zion for almost two millenia.
Besides, there is a practical matter: Without the State of Israel, millions of Jews would have nowhere to go. Disappear Medinat Yisrael and we will have another Shoah thanks to the Arab and Iranian rashaim. And you are allying yourself with them.
“America DOES give kollel families more financial support (considering food stamps, welfare, wic, section 8, heap, Medicaid, free lifeline cell phone service, head start, etc etc etc) than the pittance of a couple hundred dollars that the Israeli government gives.”
And charedi neighborhoods in America consistently vote in huge numbers for Republican politicians who would end most of those subsidies.
Meanwhile, modern orthodox neighborhoods in America consistently vote in large majorities for Democratic politicians who will raise their taxes.
(Anyone else think this is weird?)
Italy used to jail conscientious objectors, until it abolished its draft. Two future popes served in the Italian Army during WW1.
‘They also require “national service” in lieu of armed service.’
Back when the US had a draft, conscientious objectors did have to do national service at low pay in bad conditions.
Charliehall, what do you mean by Chareidi isolationism? Separation from the Umos and Reshoei Yisroel is mandated by TANACH and Gemorah in numerous places.
Mdd, the reason the government is only cutting off all entitlements is because Likud and Bayit HaYehudi have some say in the matter, too. The original Lapid plan called for fines and jail time for Chareidim who refuse to join the IDF.
Also, Lapid himself has proclaimed his intention make the Chareidim into just another part of Israeli society, something which the Chareidim have always opposed doing. See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yair-lapid-to-chareidim-you-won#pos-434501
TS:
“If it’s a fundamental part of charedi society to sit and learn all day and not work, why is it only in Israel?”
Believe it or not, all Chareidim are not exactly the same. Just because the Chareidi community in Israel believes something does not mean that the Chareidim in Israel feel the same.
Charliehall:
“Modern Orthodox Religious Zionism is the True Torah Judaism that has been practiced for millenia.”
Says you.
“we have been praying for a return to Zion for almost two millenia.”
Which does not in any way mean we must support the secular State of Israel that is in power today.
TKND, so if some Chareidim some place deside that they own all of Australia, that should be respected?
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