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Mrs. tzippi:
That part of the point, that people who are looking to live in a rich community will not move there. The forclosed areas are not “inner city” per say (projects), but are cheap enough and “mixed” enough that it can stay somewhat of a controlled community.
The intense Torah community of Lakewood can be looked upon as the modern day equivalent of the Shevet Levi (Levite tribe).
However, the Shevet Levi was not given the “spiritual luxury” of having a pure isolated community. Instaed Moshe broke them up into 48 small towns spread out among the other tribes. If you take Moshe’s earlier census of 22,000 Levites and divide into 48 cities that gives less than 500 Levites per city.
SJSinNYC: I agree with some of your points, and disagree with others. Here’s my take on ambush’s post:
If I go to Meah Shearim, I am a visitor. The people living there request that I follow their rules, and it would be nice of me to do so. However, I’m not REQUIRED to. If I don’t, yes, I may get screamed at, etc., even attacked. That’s wrong. They have no right to attack me, and I can have someone who does that arrested.
If I actually move into a neighborhood, now I am a resident, and I have the right to make myself comfortable. Get enough people who share my views, and it gets much easier to reach my comfort level.
That’s what happened in Lakewood: other people moved in, who have different views than the Yeshiva. As residents, they have every right to do what makes them comfortable. After all, Lakewood is their home also.
Feif, you aren’t allowed to disagree with ANYTHING I say LOL.
I do think its unfair to move directly into Meah Shearim and walk around in a bikini. Now, if you move in three blocks away, and the neighborhood doesn’t mind, then you have no (neighborly) obligation not to wear a bikini (halacha aside).
But most of the neighborhoods with new people were unsettled by Jews. They formed their own neighborhoods. They shouldn’t have to conform to the Yeshiva rules, unless they choose to.
My sister’s neighborhood is basically a Brooklyn neighborhood. Many do not have a sheichus to the Yeshiva. What obligates them to conform with a neighborhood that is miles away? Nothing.
I think the real issue may be that some of the yeshiva crowd wants to move into other neighborhoods because the real estate near the yeshiva is super expensive. So they look in the newer neighborhoods and say “Oy! How these newcomers have ruined our area.” But really, its a totally new area to begin with…
a “right” to do this, a “right” to do that…
This is not the constitution- this is yiddishkeit.
America’s influence of “entitlement” has infiltrated yiddin to the core
This does not state my opinion of the entire Lakewood discussion. I’m just pointing out the approach and attitude being used in some posts here (and other threads)
Sorry, but if anything has been forgotten, it is that making cliques is wrong. A city is not a camp, a city is not a school. While Yidden have taken to saying things like “This camp was intended for…..” or “This school is only open to….” and have developed a taste for the bitter power it creates, when it comes to the real world you cannot exercise that power. Unless you plan to start burning Magen Davids on front lawns, all you can do is sigh and say, “There goes the neighborhood” as the residents who preceded you did when you moved in. Then, move out – or keep complaining, but know that you actually have no right to what you are complaining about.
YeshivishCocker, your humor came across as inappropriate.
It was actually very interesting to see everyone’s views on the topic.
and to sun it all up, in this day when we REALLY need zechusim,
Everyone just RESPECT the other as you would if he was some one you did really respect! And if you truly respect THEIR views, they will respect yours.
You know it’s so interesting, Journeys (i think) put out a tape about a story: Mashich came to a shul and was wearing his hat, brim up, and he said “Yidden! Galus is over! I’m Moshiach” and they said:
“You can’t be Moshiach, your brim is up!”
He continued on to another shu,this time with his brim down. Now this Shul all had their brim up!….
It’s a cute song… with a sad message. And so what? If they are NOT MY TYPE? If they are more modern, chasiddish or Yeshivish… they all have a common denominator- YIDDEN.
Often, in times of Tzaros, it can be easy to remember. Did ANYONE daven less because the people in Mumbai were Lubabitch? Does anyone feel the pain less and not want to help those 3 boys in Japan because they are More frum/ less frum?
Could you imagine if Hatzalah in time of an emergency hesitated because they are “not my type of Frumkiet”?
But then sometimes when their is no Tzarrah to bring us together, we forget, myself included. We forget the Hashem doesn’t care which way you wear the brim…
Jothar- read my disclaimer. My comment is not targeted to either side of the argument. This whole “rights” and sense of entitlement business is killing me. Doesn’t only apply to this topic- it happened to come up here, so I finally posted my dislike…
Feivel: back in the day, lakewoods resteraunts were only take out, not sit ins…
Let’s say I don’t like sitting down in restaurants. I can always go home. How does some other family sitting down in a restaurant enjoying a nice meal with the bubbies and zaydies who worked hard to support the family for all those years impact on my ruchnius? What ruchnius is there in sticking my nose into somebody else’s family simcha, and trying to ruin it for them?
I mamash think there are some people who simply can’t find any ruchnius if it doesn’t involve the feeling of holier than thou. Yiddishkeit loses all meaning for them if they can’t find someone to look down at. Don’t the mussar sefarim (or even Pirkei Avos) say one is mechuyav to be mesameach in the simcha of another, just like being nosei b’ol R”L in the difficulty of another? Wow, I did a big mitzvah today, I ruined the meal of a bubbie or zaydie who struggled all their lives, traveled for many hours, and want a little nachas from the grandchildren for a few hours in a nice restaurant. Big yasher koach to me, I made the RBSH very happy today.
I came across this vort from Rabbi Frand, about the Apter Rav. He said that you can learn ahavas Yisrael from every parsha. So where do we see it in Balak? He said, “Balak is an acronym for Veahavta l’raiacha kamocha, veis, lamed, kuf.” To which his chassidim asked the obvious question – the spelling doesn’t match. The Apter Rav said, “Haven’t you learned anything? When it comes to ahavas Yisrael you can’t be so medakdek, you have to cut people some slack.”
Pashuteh Yid and tzippi:
Great posts. Thanks.
Don’t Willy and Monroe have sit-down restaurants? I don’t get the connection to them and rise and fall of Ruchnius.
What do Willy and Monroe have to do with Lakewood? Two completely different types of communities? Lakewood is and always was VERY different than the other two.
veyatziv, or anyone else, can you please explain how Ruchnius is negatively affected by eat-in restaurants in Lakewood and NOT in Monroe and Willy?
I do live in Lakewood, and while I do not echo the sentiments of the original letter writer, I do have to say that the standards of tznius in town have changed dramatically since I’ve come over 7 years ago. I don’t know if it is the “newer” crowd that is “not associated” with the yeshivah that caused that change, because as SJS rightly said, you can be very ehrlich and frum and not be associated with the yeshivah. One is not directly related to the other.
However, when we first moved in, you would never see anyone shopping on Clifton Avenue with hair sticking out of her “Bandanna” or whatever it’s called. In recent years, I have on many occasions seen women out in public with hair showing, without stockings on their feet, with very tight clothing that even I am embarrassed for them, with skirts that don’t adequately cover the knees… I don’t know if their husbands are learning or not, and it doesn’t matter. For those people who see Lakewood as an Ihr HaTorah, it is not whether or not you are associated with the yeshivah that matters, but how closely you are associated with dikduk hamitzvos and chavivus hatorah.
When a town has certain standards of public dress in place, for someone to move into that town they are de facto saying that they will uphold the standards of the town. To see people blatantly disregarding the minhag hamakom is very upsetting, and will of course breed resentment. There’a a whole Perek in Mesectas Pesachim called “Makom SheNahagu” which details how one must adhere to the local minhagim to avoid Machlokes.
SJS asked how far away from the yeshiva is considered another town. That is a fair question. In my humble opinion, if one shops in the major shopping areas in and around the town, then her home is considered to be a part of that town.
thewriter, IMHO you’re right!
Its the Tznius and NOT the sit-down restaurants thats the source of discomfort. The problem of lack of Tznius becomes more obvious and problematic in places where both men and women closely observe one another, i.e. sit down restaurants. Thats why it’s not problematic in Monroe and Willy, because Tznius levels are higher there.
thewriter & azoi.is: Agreed completely.
“When a town has certain standards of public dress in place, for someone to move into that town they are de facto saying that they will uphold the standards of the town.”
So if someone lives in Manhattan, they should live like streetwalkers??? The standards of a town are subject to many influences, changes, and circumstances. What is accepted one day, may not be the next, and vice versa. Lakewood was NOT always like it is today, (my husband’s non-frum family grew up there), so should the Yeshivish people who moved in oh so many years ago when Lakewood was rather, shall we say, “relaxed” in its standards, have acclimated themselves to lving more in line with how the original Lakewood natives did????? That simply makes no sense, though I DO get the sincere point you are trying to make.
People should try to be sensitive to their seviva and not seek to cause machlokess with their neighbors. But that is just plain menschlechkeit, and has nothing to do with the fact that at THIS point in time a particular mode of dress is followed. It goes both ways, as I have pointed out, and not only the way of the more medakdeik residents of a neighborhood.
I may have once mentioned analogously, that a woman moved into my neighborhood from Boro Park. She came into shul one Shabbos and the Rabbi was shortly about to give his morning drasha, and as we always do, I parted the curtains that cover our mechitzah (even without the added curtain the mechitzah is 100% kosher in and of itself, as it is extremely difficult to clearly see people through it), in order to see the rov as he spoke, which helps me to hear him better, as well. She came into the small ezras nashim and immediately went up to the curtain and covered the mechitzah up again. When I asked her what she was doing she said, “In my neighborhood, we don’t open curtains up on the mechitzah.” I quietly reminded the lady that she was not in her old neighborhood, and we are noheig to do things differently in our shul, and she was most welcome to hear the drosha with the curtains open. She sat down and never did it again.
The point is, the new kid on any block should not be throwing his or her weight around, but watch and learn from the residents, to see what the lay of the land is. That goes for the person who is more Yeshivish coming into a not as Yeshivish environment, and for the frum but more modern person entering the Yeshivish world. Mutual respect goes a LONG way to promoting Ahavas Yisroel, something we really need to keep in mind especially in the next few weeks. Changes, if any need to be made, are best made in smaller increments. It avoids ill will, and can end up being a real Kiddush Hashem.
Azoi is I’m not getting into the discussion if something is or isn’t wrong with restaurants. What I was trying to say is : Don’t compare Lakewood to Williamsburgh or Monroe. It is a very different crowd and there are mailos and chisronos to each community. That’s all. I’m not saying that I agree 100 percent with the writer. There are parts that I agree with and parts that I don’t. However, restaurants can definitely change a town. (for good and for bad)
Thewriter: it’s possible some of these people don’t live in Lakewood, but come for the good shopping, they’re in the area, etc. And maybe for some of these people, wearing skirts, and covering hair (you’re sure it’s not a fall?) is a step up and they should be given encouragement and a smile, not the cold shoulder.
At any rate, I believe the ban on chairs was because they didn’t want restaurants turning into hangouts for teens. Nevertheless, you don’t punish a whole community because of a something which is only a cheshash and which is only because of a few. I believe that they on their own realized that this will not prevent kids from going OTD, and will only drive them further away. They will go to non-Jewish places. So it is better to have them in a Jewish environment.
Why anyone would be cocerned w the restarants that opened is totally beyond me. You can soooo easily choose not to go, and so can your friends and relatives. If you don’t go, how do other people going negatively effect you more than people that go to retaurants in Anytown, USA? How does it ruin your town?
Ambush, Let me explain you a major major difference between Meah Shearim and Lakewood. Meah Shearim is in a jewish country runned by jews. The jews are able to make their own rules for that city. So therefore if they put up a sign such as what you pointed out i would obey it.
Also another difference between Lakewood and the sign in meah Shearim is as following: In Meah Shearim they are asking a very normal thing. They just want people to dress tzniusdig when the town is anyways runned by jews and 99.99999% percent of it’s inhabitants are jews. So therefore they aren’t asking for so much. In Lakewood, the person who started this thread wants no businessman to move into Lakewood. he wants no restaurants and businesses in lakewood. That is totally different. How does he expect people to sit in kollel if there is no money coming in??? The money doesn’t grow on trees. It is all coming from the businessman. so you can’t say that these people shouldn’t move into lakewood. I was just in Lakewood this past shabbos. Whoever thinks that there are no goyim in lakewood that don’t dress the way we do has it totally wrong. Lakewood is filled with goyim too. I’m not trying to say that the frum people shouldn’t dress tzniusdig. I’m trying to say that i shouldn’t get looks and stares if i’m not wearing the same exact levush as the residents of Lakewood. Is it assur to wear a buttoned down shirt with a bit of color to it {in the summer}??
Jothar: I very much disagree that the less said about tznius the better. It constantly need reinforcing much like loshon hora does.
Jothar – “Tznius is a serious issue, ie halachic not just hashkafic, and it has become a problem even among some kollel wives.”
I not disagreeing, but how do explain away the wives and daughters of yeshiva rabbeim, rabbonim, revered roshei yeshiva in the 1960’s and 70’s; the dress norm is scorned in the CR today, i.e., sheer dresses, inches above the knee dress lengths, inches above the elbow sleeves, and lower necks. We have the photographic evidence as proof for any doubters.
WHY
These women were not driven out of town, but it’s interesting, with time they to changed.
Jothar – “Tznius is a serious issue, ie halachic not just hashkafic, and it has become a problem even among some kollel wives.”
I not disagreeing, but how do explain away the wives and daughters of yeshiva rabbeim, rabbonim, and revered roshei yeshiva in the 1960’s and 70’s; their dress norm is scorned in the CR today, i.e., sheer material, inches above the knee dress lengths, inches above the elbow sleeves, and lower necks. We have the photographic evidence as proof for any doubters.
WHY did these husbands and fathers give their approval at that time? Did they know something about halacha and human nature that we don’t? These women were not driven out of town, but it’s interesting, with time they too changed, on their own.
And why are you picking on the women only; are to z’freedin (satisfied/happy)with the new influx of men; with their mode of dress and mannerisms and minhagim?
The good people of Lakewood should work on their own midos and ahavas yisroel so that others in the Lakewood community, who have not yet attained the ultimate level of erlichkeit, will admire and be inspired to emulate these halachic role models.
The real success of Lakewood will be the demise of all these issues, but it’s not going to happen using Ayatollah tactics in America.
Sheesh, you’re all forgetting that Hashem is giving out ALL the money to the kollel , the business people are just the messengers. If they don’t want to give the money, trust me, Hashem has other ways and means to get the kollel people what they need.
Tzippy,
Yes, you’re right that there are women who come from out of town to shop in Lakewood, especially around Yom Tov time. People are generally very courteous and welcoming to these women. I personally will always give a warm smile and try to assist them if they need help finding products…
However, the people I was referring to are those who obviously live here – you don’t drive to Lakewood to give your shirts into the cleaners! If you meet certain faces in all the different stores around town on various occasions, that’s a pretty clear sign that they are locals.
In addition, perhaps as you mention the way these women dress is a step up for them. However, especially with the Inyan of Tznius, Minhag HaMakom plays a very large role in determining what is and what is not acceptable in that location. I have also met a few people that I personally know from before their marriage, and their mode of dress is definitely not a step up from where they’re coming from.
So as much as I agree that being Dan L’Kaf Z’chus is praiseworthy, that doesn’t change the fact that those who dress outside the parameters of Minhag HaMakom, as determined by the Rabbanim of the town in it’s current state (and not based on what the town looked like 20-30 years ago!), are inviting resentment for lowering the community’s standards.
“Sheesh”
Completely not intending to be critical, but to point out something of which many of us are innocently unaware, this expression, like the word “gee” or other similar sounding expressions of surprise or such, come directly from the English name of Yeshu. It is used, in order to not pronounce the name itself when one is using profanity. It has become so much a part of the American vernacular, that we are completely oblivious to its derivation. Another aspect of this particular word is its ability to be substituted for another 4-letter nivul peh that is commonly used. In any case, it is an expression that is best not found in a Yeshivah coffee room, for the reasons I mentioned. I found this information out when I used an expression like “aw, gee” very innocently and had a rabbinic friend who is also a wordsmith give me a fascinating education. OK, maybe this belonged on the funny words thread.
The writer – thank you for giving your opinion on what constitutes the area. I happen to disagree and here is why. If someone goes to Deal, do they make sure NOT to wear a sheitel? After all, sephardic women don’t wear sheitels.
There are certain things that fall under minhag hamakom and certain things that don’t. I don’t know all the details, so perhaps some of the more educate amongst us can tell us. If a woman holds by the opinion that a tefach of hair can show, or that she just needs a head covering, not a hair covering (both valid halachic opinions whether or not you hold by them), is she obligated under minhag hamakom to cover more?
Lets also look at many of the stores that have opened in the last few years – who were they opened for? Was it the BMG families? Or was it the newcomers? I would hazard a guess its the newcomers who are supporting those stores, as they are generally more likely to be better off than the families with long time learners (total speculation here, so if someone has other information, please share). If there are so many people who are going against the grain of what old Lakewood was, perhaps the minhag hamakom has changed? Perhaps the Yeshiva is more of a minority now. In which case, anything that is minhag hamakom has changed to what the majority now do. I don’t know if minhag hamakom is based on what the Rabbonim establish or not…or if its based on what people do.
it is not whether or not you are associated with the yeshivah that matters, but how closely you are associated with dikduk hamitzvos and chavivus hatorah.
Realize that if I hold by different piskei halacha, it doesnt mean that I am not being medakdek in kiyum hamitzvot etc…just holding differently than you.
Jothar, realize that Tzniut is a woman’s mitzvah and that keeping it has no bearing on what men are required. I am required to keep hilchot tzniut for ME, if you get a benefit out of it, that is wonderful for you. But its not an unfair nisayon – its one Hashem gave to men. Women are obligated in the mitzvah for themselves, not to make anyone else’s life easier (semantics, I realize).
mazal, yes, Hashem is responsible for the kollels getting money – or not getting money. Lately, many kollels haven’t been able to pay their members, and aren’t able to raise the funds needed to do so. Maybe Hashem is sending them a message?
I’d avoid the phrase Good Samaritan for a different reason.
The phrase comes from a parable in the Christian Bible. The parable tells the story of a man who was traveling on the road from Jericho to Jerusalem and is beaten by highwaymen. First a Kohen and then a Levi pass him by but do not help. Next a Samaritan passes by and takes care of the traveler.
As anyone knows, in a structured parable of this sort, the third person to pass by should have been a Yisroel. The fact that a Samaritan is inserted into the parable instead of a Yisroel is an insult to Jews — as if to say that Jews won’t take care of one of their own, but a Samaritan (who was often looked down upon in Jewish society) would take care of a Jew. For that reason (and not because of any connotations of Avoda Zara), I avoid the phrase whenever possible.
The Wolf
Wolf, I agree. For similar reasons I’d also avoid the phrase “pound of flesh”.
Ames, I thought that was a universal sephardic thing? I don’t know that many sephardic women but they all told me that sephardim don’t wear sheitels. My step-sister married a sephardic Rabbi and I thought he said no sephardi women wear sheitels? R’ Ovadia Yosef assured all of them?
Anyway, feel free to clarify. Sephardi culture/traditions/halacha is NOT my area of expertise 🙂
Jothar, my rov said it should NOT be said, because “gee” and sheesh are shortened forms of his English name and specifically was used as a method of cursing in his name without actually “profaning” it. So I guess I will still refrain from use of that particular expression. There are many such expressions that have crept into our common usage, such as “knock on wood” (a reference to the crucifixion). Should we use such expressions, just because we don’t know where they were derived? Did you ever hear of someone who feels creeped-out describe himself as “having the heebie-jeebies?” That expressions is a derogatory term from Hebrew Jewboys. Most people are unaware, and I think it’s good to knwo what we are saying wehn we say it.
The writer forgets that every yeshiva town needs its money people otherwise it would just close up shop. Sorry L’wood doesnt have all the farfrumtness you want in a town.
Ames, thats good to know! Is it a majority opinion or minority?
Can I get personal and ask if you wear a sheitel? Just curious!
Ames, thank you. I thought it was a universal thing. I am woefully ignorant with sephardic practices and customs (but LOVE the food – sephardic food rocks!).
I guess my question to everyone else is: If you were entering a sephardic neighborhood where women did NOT wear sheitels, would you change to a hat? If you wouldn’t, then you shouldn’t be bothered by the matzav in Lakewood. If you would, you still shouldn’t be bothered by the matzav but at least you wouldn’t be a hypocrite 🙂
So I guess when it comes to Minhag HaMakom, some people pick and choose those minhagim which suit them best.
The title of this thread is “overkill”.
The word Matzav I best remember was used in Israel during the Yom Kippur War when we were attacked by the Egyptian and Syrian armies.
When I first saw the thread title I thought it referred to a serious crime situation r’l.
Orthodox Jews who are not as spiritually motivated moving in to a community do not justify the use of the word “matzav”.
Could someone please explain to me in plain English what the following two lines is all about:
Allowed markup: a blockquote code em strong ul ol li.
You can also put code in between backtick ( ` ) characters.
Thanks.
Have a look at this chat from months ago http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/good-forwards/page/3#post-51327
The purpose of the backticks is to prevent auto-spacing. It is used primarily in the pictures people put up (like the hangman board).
Josh: Disagreed.
I didn’t get it then and I still don’t get it now. You’re assuming I know about “blockquotes” and “backticks”, etc.
I need a hands on walk through.
That probably doesn’t belong in this thread.
This is truly a naive question, borne purely out of ignorance. I live in the tri state area but can count on one hand the number of times I have been to Lakewood. Always to a simcha and never stayed overnight, so, I really dont know what the “matzav” may or may not be. Can someone answer the following question?
What percentage of people/families living in Lakewood are associated with the Yeshiva in a meaningful way?
What percentage of families have a peripheral association with the yeshiva (once learned in the kollel, work in the yeshiva, do business with the yeshiva).
What percentage of people simply live in Lakewood because of the city and have no connection to the yeshiva?
Does anyone know how the Roshei Yeshiva feel about the change in atmosphere? Have they spoken about it publicly?
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