Bothered by the Lakewood Matzav?

i don’t know the author of this long diatribe but does he realize that without all of these newcomers that he so dislikes, he would not have a cent to live on? These “baalei batim’ (and others like them) are the ones who keep the yesivah going. Waht happened to hakoras hatov?

Didn’t Lakewood have an Orthodox community before the Yeshiva was established?

adding on to what i said before. Does BMG own Lakewood? Anyone can move into lakewood.

GAW, how could the yeshiva possibly move after having sunk millions into the infrastructure? Among other things…

There is nothing left to say after reading such a post.

I’m stunned. Every single thing that Jothar wrote is true. So then you got this guy complaining that it is Kinah. Then you got the guy who says he should have Hakoras Hatov because…totally unfathomable what he is taking about. Oh, and the guy who says …so move out…..or the Yeshiva should move if they don’t approve…….totally clueless to the changed society. Wild stuff. Sorry it is not an Ir hatorah anymore. And all you guys who we are supposed to have hakoras hatov for. Sure, just keep assuaging you conscience by donating with the funds….that you partially acquired from yeshivaleit that in desperation are buying your overinflated priced housing for fear that next year will be worse. The resat are from the people Jothar is writing about.

Even though the letter writers points are good ones, his bottom line is wrong. It is wrong to disassociate with other Yidden on a lower madreiga than yourself.

GAW, BMG owns a number of buildings. Not only that, but there are thousands of kollel and rosh chabura, maggidei shiur families that would have to decide if they would pick up and move. Wherever they would choose to move to, they would need to have a similar infrastructure in place. This is a mega undertaking but hey, if that’s what they’ve got to do so be it.

Mrs. tzippi, nishtgeshtoigen:

How many of the members of the kollel will be willing to move? All the Roshei Yeshiva have to say is THEY are moving; either others will follow or not. The ones who remain can use the current facilities.

If BMG has to restart with 20 Kollel men (not bochrim) to get its bearings back (if it does need to do so), then so be it.

You vehemently disagree that the environment has changed or you just couldn’t care less as it doesn’t impinge on your lifestyle?

I’m not Jothar, but I disagree that just because people aren’t associated with BMG or following certain “standards” (especially non-halachic ones), that the newcomers are on any less of a madreiga. Just because you learn full time in BMG and have been there for 20 years, doesn’t automatically make you a chashuv person. You may be, but its not automatic. And you may be no better (or even worse) than the man who moved to Lakewood and goes to work every day. That isn’t your cheshbon to make.

I would compare what is happening to Lakewood to what happened in Monsey. Monsey started as a town based a lot around Bais Medrash Elyon and then flourished from there. While Monsey has many problems, it now hosts many frum Jews all over the spectrum. Learning to live in harmony with people with different hashkafas is not always easy, and sometimes causes isolation. But no group is really better.

I did not read through all the comments, but I’ll copy and paste my comment from the site this letter was taken from:

Mod 39 – “Gateshead is probably a good comparison (community built around a Yeshiva). Gateshead set up a vaad which establishes the price of homes based upon the prices in the neighbouring non Jewish areas”

Actually, I think Gateshead is very different and that is exactly why they suceeded and Lakewood didn’t in this aspect. Gateshead was not opened by the Yeshiva or around the yeshiva. Gateshead is one community with one rov. The community was started with certain standards and all the institutions which opened up thereafter opened as subordinate to the one Rov. I remember hearing that when R’ Rakoov became the rov, all the roshei mosdos got together with him and all of them, most of whom were years older than the new Rov “pledged their allegiance” to him.

Lakewood on the other hand is a yeshiva which moved to a community and although it has accounted for most of the growth in lakewood it never had the supreme, central authority which Gateshead has (or had 13 years ago when I was there)

With all respect to the opinion of the one who wrote the article;

I read/ heard recently about the life of the first kollel yungerman of the yeshiva. (As a side point- he never left the yeshiva, he went on to work for the yeshiva for the rest of his life. When he passed away he was also the person with the longest affiliation with the yeshiva).

What I found very interesting was the amount of mesiras nefesh he put in, not only for his own learning but for the well being of the yeshiva. Besides for learning a full day in the yeshiva, during bain hasedorim he would ride his bike to different hotels in the area (he didn’t own a car) and raise money from the Jewish people vacationing at the hotel. (This was in the 1940s when kollel was virtually unheard of in the U.S. Imagine how hard it was to explain to people on vacation what he was raising money for.)

He supported his growing family on the meager stipend the yeshiva provided at the time. That was sincere mesiras nefesh for learning.

When his kids got older he moved them to New York where they would not have to attend a coed school. He commuted to Lakewood during the week and back to New York for the weekends until the yeshiva opened the New York office and he got a job there.

I’m curious to know if the writer did any research for the article.

Contrary to what the author wrote- Lakewood was a resort town when Reb Aaron Kotler decided that he wanted his yeshiva located there. He wanted it at least three hours away from the distractions of New Yrok (as Squeek hinted to above). It was not “established with the Yeshivah at its core to accommodate bnei Torah”. With no separate schools, Lakewood was definitely was not a place “to raise their families in an atmosphere of Torahdike hashkafos and dikduk hamitzvos”.

I hope I don’t get in trouble for writing this but from what I understand the purpose of the yeshiva was for bochurim/ yungerleit to learn for a few years with all their needs provided and no responsibilities to distract their learning. In the early days of the yeshiva the bochurim were not charged tuition for that reason. Reb Aaron, if I remember correctly, was against talmidim taking support from the government for then the time one was able to spend in yeshiva would seem infinite and the talmidim wouldn’t give it “their fullest” compared to if they knew they only had 6 to 12 months left and they had to “chap arayn”.

As this is a sensitive issue, I sincerely hope I did not offend anyone. Please forgive me if I did.

SJSinNYC

Accepting and tolerating and chashuv have absolutely nothing to do with the issue. I myself am an out of towner and working…But I recognized that I am obligated to recognize and conform to yeshiva standards. Be it Tznius, chashivos Hatorah etc. One shouldn’t come here on the account of waiting to be accepted or even demanding acceptance and accommodation . (I mean after all: the churban, sinas Chinum, gaavah,…. blah, blah, blah) One should need to recognize what Lakewood stood for and strive to grow accordingly.

Jothar:

If the new area is not commutable to NYC, and is somewhat exclusive, then it has a much better chance of remaining a Kollel town, populated by those who are Mistapek B’muat.

Doesn’t make a difference. The Roshei yeshiva are happy with the current situation. Similar to the Makkah of Dam, its easy to ignore when it doesn’t apply to the top.

I recognized that I am obligated to recognize and conform to yeshiva standards.

Please explain to me far the Kollel power extends. Is it 1 mile? 10 miles? 50 miles? Where is the doctrine that explains this?

A MO friend of mine grew up in Lakewood. She certainly didn’t conform. There was a small MO community there and I think even a coed day school. Did BMG have the power to shut them down? Did they try?

My sister moved into a neighborhood that was not really populated. I think there were 20 families when they moved in. Most of them had not even learned in BMG. So what requirements were there for them to follow the Kollel? Incidentally, the Kollel did not like the Rav who tried to establish himself there (I don’t know the backstory), so the community listened and got a new Rav.

They also didn’t try to send their kids to one of the schools that didn’t hashkafically fit them – they didnt try to come in and say “Hey I’m here get used to what I do.” They chose an appropriate area and appropriate schools for them. I don’t in any way see how my sister and her family are bringing down Lakewood. I would put my brother-in-laws learning up against any of the people in kollel (he gets up at 4 am most days to be able to learn, go to minyan, put in a full days work, come home, spend time with his family and then go to maariv and more learning). He is an amazing person that Lakewood is lucky to have. I’m sorry if some people cannot see that because he wears a blue shirt to work.

I’m trying to figure out what Lakewood stood for that the newcomers should be striving for – is it discrimination against people who have slightly different hashkafa or a halachic psak? I was under the impression that Lakewood stood for Torah, not pettiness.

Realize, that if the kollel had the power you want them to (or think they have) and the Kollel thought the restaurants were inappropriate, they would be able to close them down. Who gives the hechsherim to restaurants in Lakewood anyway?

Remember, this is a letter written by an “original” Lakewoodian looking down on newcomers – not a newcomer saying “I want to be accepted.” Maybe the newcomers don’t need your acceptance. Does that bother you?

Jothar: well put, but if its Elite & Far enough, they can keep it to be just that.

There is still one thing i don’t understand about lakewood. IN lakewood the people who are in kollel are considered first class. Why are the people who are mosar nefesh to go work and make a living and still are kovea itim letorah considered 2nd class??? These are the people who are supporting The people in kollel? Are you trying to throw them out of the town of Lakewood?? I’m sorry to tell you that BMG DOES NOT OWN LAKEWOOD. Lakewood is a flourishing frum community and ANYONE has every right to move there. It happens to be that most of the young couples the husband is in kollel. But if someone goes to work he ISNT second class!!

GAW: Cleveland? Detroit? Maybe if as RoB suggests, they move to the inner city, where no one else is moving. There are already beautiful, well established communities there. There are many yeshivish people too, but out of town yeshivish wouldn’t necessarily cut it in Lakewood. No judgment in those last few words, just stating a reality.

poverty: I must’ve missed something,

what question?

If you want me to clear up my view on the topic,

regardless to my personal opinion,

my point was this cannot be avoided.

Policing religious yidden, (allbeit not on ur frumkeit level)

from moving into your neighborhood or starting a kosher restuarant,

or business!!!!!!

my personal opinion is complex, though I understand the frustrations

of a ultra frum person feeling their ruchnius safe haven being

penetrated by those who aren’t sensitive to their way of life.

However I cannot condone a holier than thou attitude, towards

the working class Balei Batim. (i’m NOT generalizing)

I was trying to avoid this.

My point is there are a few, very few from both sides

who arent behaving with sensitivity towards the other.

those few cause a big stir & make everybody look bad.

Not every working guy by defaults wife dresses not tznius.

Not every learning guy wife dresses tznius.

Dont label people!

I hope I’m being clear in my point.

rabbiofberlin:

Could we be confusing cause and effect? Gateshead remained a poor area due to the enforcement of the rules. The Lakewood “boom” (rightly or wrongly) occurred due to the lack of rules which enabled developers to come in and people to purchase as investments.

But realize, if the Yeshiva did not support the idea of restaurants, there would probably be no restaurant. What mashgiach would give his hechsher on a place that BMG was against?

tzippi:

Yes, i meant inner city. The communities already there will provide a needed base of operations (food, mikvah, etc.)

It fits in with ROB’s point.