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What is it so difficult to understand? On some streets the eruv extendes close to 8Th Ave. If you look at the map, it is clear that on 9Th Ave between 52 and 60Th st the eruv in only on only one side of the street. If one is carrying on the opposite side of the street isn’t it considered they are outside of the Boro Park eruv? I’ve noticed people carrying on the other side of the eruv – When asked “Is one allowed to carry here?” The answer I got was “There is a backup Eruv”. and according to david1999 there are many backup eruvs. If you ask any of the people that carry,” which streets are included in the backup eruv?” NO ONE KNOWS. My question is, How far can you carry in a eruv if you have no idea where the boundries are? I have asked people that use the Boro Park eruv “If a back up eruv ,with lechies and kores exist?” They said NO!. There isn’t any backup eruv. Now think for a moment .The Boro Park eruv is very large ,one would have to check that eruv EVERY erev Shabbos to make sure it is kosher. Isnt is safe to say that the backup eruvs are checked as well? (According to david 1999 there are many backup eruvs) which seems to be impossible . I spoke to some of the people who are in charge of the eruv , they mentioned that they are aware of people carrying outside the eruv and they dont find it a problem. Therefore they must be relying on something else, not a backup eruv . Is it mechetzos ?what else can they be using?
I am not addressing the “kashrus” of the eruv eruv per se. This comment is addressing the following “I spoke to some of the people who are in charge of the eruv , they mentioned that they are aware of people carrying outside the eruv and they dont find it a problem. Therefore they must be relying on something else, not a backup eruv”.
Perhaps they are relying on the eruv and are not concerned for whatever reason that people carry outside its boundaries. I don’t know the answer to this question and am not trying to answer it, but, should the eruv be invalidated on the grounds that people carry outside its boundaries? Those who erected the eruv, are they hiding those boundaries and keeping them a secret purposely? Are they obligated to take down the eruv because some people are to lazy to find out what area it covers? These are not rhetorical questions. Perhaps these are questions asked of a posek and they received a reply that allows them to maintain the eruv despite those who carry outside its coverage area. Why assume the answer is “backup eruv”, because those who carry use that answer? Moreover, if you spoke to those who erected the eruv and you raised this concern, why didn’t you ask them what they rely on, instead of assume an answer on your own and be left with a question mark?
“2.5+ mil. 2010 population count + 1/4 mil. commuters + 2.8% undercount.”
The 2010 data aren’t out yet, but here is what the Census Bureau found in 2000:
Total resident population 2,465,326.
Total workers working in the area 667,477.
Total workers living in the area 901,027, of whom 431,559 worked in Brooklyn.
Daytime population 2,231,776.
“how many years did all jewish men and woman boys and girls never carried on shabbos”
Warsaw had an eruv until 1939; Jews carried in what was then the largest Jewish city in the world.
667,477 is significantly higher than David’s number of 235,000. Something doesn’t add up here or with David’s count.
tumill –
I reiterate, the mechitzos encompassing Brooklyn would not suffice for a heter tiltul. Please learn the inyan prior to commenting. I wonder why you are obsessed with the issue of back-up eruvin.
Clark Kent –
You missed the point. I am referring to those who come into work. Those residing and also working in Brooklyn were already tallied. I gave the source for my numbers, look it up.
Clark Kent,
Here is the math… 667,477 is the total workers in Brooklyn, out of them 431,559 are the people who reside in Brooklyn. So that means 235,918 is the total numbers of workers that come to Brooklyn for work.
Ddavid1999
David, you are stuck in 1999-around when the Boro Park eruv was established.Since then Boro Park has expanded, and frum people reside beyond the original eruv lines.They are carrying on Shabbos using a rumored back -up eruv,and are bringing in extra food for kiddish and shalish seudos to Shuls that are in the original Boro Park eruv.Should this be a problem? I called the Boro Park Eruv Society and asked them if there is a back-up eruv they told me that they would rather not give me an answer..
tumill-
One thing is for sure you have no idea what you are talking about.
Your fixation is disturbing.
You are rude.
I know nothing about hilchos eruvin and nothing about this 2.5 million-3 million that keeps coming up, but it may be important to note that according to census data, almost 175,000 more people lived in brooklyn 60 years ago than now which may or may not make a difference in a psak.
Tumill
David1999
Tumill
“FYI – 51st between 9Th and 8Th ave is part of the Boro Park eruv.52st and 53st bet 9Th and 8Th ave are outside of the Boro Park eruv., and there are NO ERUVS ON THOSE BLOCKS. The same way that you know of those few blocks ,is the same why you know of the back-up eruv NOTHING!!!
David1999 You may be a scholar, but when it comes to the Boro Park eruv you are a big am haaretz.
tumill –
popa_bar_abba –
I guess you will always consider it rude when you disagree.
No, David99, that is not what I think.
Go back and re-read all your posts. You do not argue nicely.
Look at the contrast between your language, (ex. “you are simply incorrect”, “you have no idea what you’re talking about”, etc.), and other posters on this forum.
It doesn’t even serve your purpose, because it makes people defensive, and then they will never agree.
david1999 you have never answered tumill’s point. instead of instinctively attacking try and think for a second before responding. i don’t believe he is attacking your holding of the eruv it seems to me tumill’s question is on those people who live outside the eruv and bring food into the eruv for public consumption (relying on the back up eruv, of which no one knows if it really exists let alone its boundaries) which cannot be eaten , what can be done to make people aware of this issue. if an eruv covers one half of a street but not the other half, it dosent seem possible that mistakes would not happen
popa_bar_abba –
LETS GET TO THE FACTS its assur to carry in flatbush or boro park eruv, PERIOD
gedalia goomber –
HIE –
Please elaborate on these facts.
Rav Moshe and many others, k let me correct myself. Rav MOshe paskened that the eruv cannot be used. I understand that there were cholkim, but the VELT accepted Rav MOshe;s psak, and it is a massive CHUTZPAH to go against what the velt accepted
HIE-
The making of an Eruv should minimize chillul Shabbos among those who in any event would be carrying.The problem is that people who would not carry without an Eruv are now being m’chlal Shabbos,since they are carrying outside of the Eruv.There are no signs indicating where the Eruv ends.The people who made the Eruv are living in a dream world believing that that people will study the Eruv map,and will know how to maneuver on Shabbos and keep themselve within the Eruv..
You started this argument because you wanted to malign the BP eruv. That you continuously harp on this matter even after I illuminated the fact that this not unique to the BP eruv proves my point. Just like in pre-WWII Europe and in Eretz Yisroel today it was/is not the responsibility of those who established the eruv so too in BP. No one ever argued that this is a reason not to establish an eruv. Moreover, you are definitely blowing the matter out of proportion. All these arguments are specious.
DAVID 1999 You yourself quote the Chasam Sofer on page 3 post 16 “The Chasam Sofer (99) states that the reason for eruivn is to save people who will mistakenly carry”.If the Eruv will cause people to be m’chall Shabbos what would the Chsam Sofer have said?
I wished this thread would have come and gone quickly, but it looks like it is destined for a long, slow, horrible death. Exacty what purpose is served by continuing this thread (name calling, hurling invective and spreading machlokes don’t count).
david1999: I think you are a bit mislead. Rav Moshe Paskened that there cannot be a public eruv in brooklyn, i dont know where you get your nonsense from that “today” rav moshe would allow. Dont mislead yourself to permit chillul shabbos. The velt did accept Rav moshes psak
The velt did accept Rav moshes psak
Obviously, because there are people who use the eruv, the “velt” did NOT accept the psak. Unless you define “velt” as “those with whom I agree with.”
The Wolf
the velt did and then people after went against it, not immediatly.
the velt did and then people after went against it, not immediatly.
I highly doubt that. Please provide proof to this assertion that EVERYONE accepted the p’sak.
The Wolf
its a fact. my father told me it was an accepted thing and then people went against it. it trust him
its a fact. my father told me it was an accepted thing and then people went against it. it trust him
You may trust him, but *I* don’t have to accept it.
So, I ask you again, please provide some proof (other than “my dad said so”) to your assertion that EVERYONE accepted this p’sak.
The Wolf
edited
Mods,
I don’t understand why my post was edited.
The Wolf
edited. Sorry. You made your point to him, the rest seemed unnecessary.
Mods,
Fair enough… I’ll accept it for now. 🙂
The Wolf
Also fair enough, if I see it. Post your link, I’ll look at it now.
Mods,
I see
mods, can you post the rest of his post i want to see what he has to say
apushatayid
Member
“I wished this thread would have come and gone quickly”
apushatayid- Sorry if this thread bothers you.but, I am using this thread lashame shamayim.Since I live close to 8Th Ave,I see people on Shabbos carrying outside of the Eruv and this bothers me. I am using this thread to try to prevent chillul Shabbos and not to have it increased
hullo mods??
anyway, wolf, you haven’t brought any proof that the velt didn’t accept it
tumill –
HIE –
tumill
Member
David1999
Tumill
“FYI – 51st between 9Th and 8Th ave is part of the Boro Park eruv.52st and 53st bet 9Th and 8Th ave are outside of the Boro Park eruv., and there are NO ERUVS ON THOSE BLOCKS.”The same way that you know of those few blocks ,is the same why you know of the back-up eruv NOTHING!!!
david1999
“I already corrected myself. The fact that you harp on a simple typing mistake demonstrates that you are grasping at straws “
I HAVEN’T SEEN ANY POST SHOWING THAT YOU CORRECTED YOURSELF.
WHY DO YOU KEEP ON SAYING THAT THERE IS A BACKUP ERUV, WHEN ONE DOES NOT EXIST.
popa_bar_abba
You asked the following:
“The majority of rabbis are reform and conservative.
This question was asked to an amora, if I recall. (That we should follow rov of the world who does not keep the torah.)
Anyone remember the answer offhand?”
I think this question was to Reb E. Wasserman. The answer to the question is that Roiv & Miut is only said on a sofek and not where there is a vadai.
HIE,
You still haven’t defined who is the ” velt”. You made the claim, you have to prove it.
anyway, wolf, you haven’t brought any proof that the velt didn’t accept it
HIE,
You cannot shift the burden of proof to me. It is up to the one making the assertion to prove his/her statement, not the other way around. For example, if I claim that the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, I can’t ask you to disprove it — it is up to me to prove that it exists.
In this case, you are the one who made the assertion that EVERYONE accepted this p’sak. The burden of proof is on you, not I.
The Wolf
tumill –
Once again, there is more than one back-up eruv.
tumill –
I will add that the reason I made this mistake was because on 51st street the BP eruv only includes half a block. However, if there would be a need for those on that block one would be able to carry until 8th avenue (just like 52-53 Street).
Just as people are making up stories that people are carrying in Sunset Park because of the BP eruv so too you are making up stories about people carrying out of the eruv.
HIE,
With all due respect to your father, I lived in Flatbush in the 1970’s. The acceptance/nonacceptance was pretty much driven by where you davened.
All the large shuks ( with the exception of the Young Israel of Midwood ) accepted tye Eruv, all the Yeshivish and Chassidish minyanim ( as far as I know ) did not. Your father probably fell into the latter category.
So, please don’t claim All the Velt did not accept it
I don’t know what the velt did or didn’t accept. I do know thbat R’ Moshe never paskened for “the velt”, in any matter.
A chutzpeh.
nobody argued with the psak till 15 years later
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