Boro Park Eruv

No. Why not try to seek real answers and not just shoot from the hip.

I see. So we go around until we think we find an answer that we personally agree with. What a wonderful religion you believe in.

“+ 1/4 mil. commuters”

Minus + 1/4 mil. commuters out of Brooklyn.

Why would you deduct the outbound commuters? Both the inbound and outbound commuters could be on the road at the same time (going in their respective directions) in the 12×12 mil area. That would necessitate inclusion of both. Rav Moshe included the inbound commuters and did not deduct the outbound commuters.

Finally a good question. Let me try to explain.

Since Manhattan like Yerushalayim has many visitors from all over the world, Rav Moshe maintained an eruv should not be established in Manhattan as well. However, Rav Moshe agreed (HaPardes, 33rd year, vol. 9; Kuntres Tikkun Eruvin Manhattan p. 161, and Divrei Menachem, O.C. vol. 2, siman 4) that if the rabbanim in Manhattan would erect an eruv, the precedent of Yerushalayim would not pose an obstacle. How much more so would Rav Moshe have allowed an eruv that had been erected in Brooklyn, as he was not sure if Brooklyn was even comparable to Yerushalayim at all (Igros Moshe, O.C. 1:139:6, 5:28:15).

[On the contrary, the Shulchan Aruch HaRav (364:4); Bais Ephraim (O.C. 26); Bais Meir (O.C. 364:2); Mishnah Berurah (364:5), and the Achiezer (4:8) maintain that only when the area meets all the classifications of a reshus harabbim is there a requirement of delasos.]

According to Rav Moshe, in a Brooklyn neighborhood, a tzuras hapesach would suffice for the following reason:

Since the tzuras hapesachim we erected in our neighborhoods are established in an area encompassed by mechitzos, the area is classified as a reshus hayachid, and the tzuras hapesachim are sufficient and delasos are not required (ibid., 1:139 see the end of anaf 3 where Rav Moshe states clearly that if the tzuras hapesach is erected in a reshus hayachid, it is sufficient.

3) Regarding Manhattan, Rav Moshe stated that, based on additional shitos yechidaos (shitas haRashbah and Rabeinu Ephraim), even with mechitzos and delasos at the pirtzos, Manhattan would not be classified as a reshus hayachid (ibid., 1:39:5-6).

Even these shitos yachidaos would not affect an eruv in a Brooklyn neighborhood for the following reasons:

popa_bar_abba,

You keep saying cute/annoying things without any real attempt to bring proofs to your side. Sounds like you just want to be right but don’t want to bother with the actual argument.

His Royal Highness,

Just as a side point but do you realize that anyone sitting in his car or bus/train can’t be counted since they are in their own reshus.

shmooze1,

And what if i told you that overpass train tracks can be considered as an eruv? (i dont know if it’s actually utilized im just saying)

I think the biggest problem with this issue is that people are very closed minded and are afraid of what others might think. I wanted to sit and learn the halachos of eruv inside but the Rav informed me that no matter what we come out with he will still not allow me to carry. And every issue he explained to me sounded like he was biased towards eruv being a problem and then someone else explained to me the same halachos from a different perspective so it sounded like it’s not problem.

I dont know who is right or who is wrong but i think if there are in fact good mechitzos around brooklyn then it makes a big difference in this argument.

“I dont know who is right or who is wrong”

Your Rav is right, even if he is wrong.

popa,

According to you i have a difficult time understanding BM 59b. It seems Rabbi Eliezer was also a great person with very logical proves and he even got Bas Kol on his side but halacha goes by majority opinion.

“but halacha goes by majority opinion.”

Please forgive this flippant remark in advance.

The majority opinion is to carry on shabbos without an eru. Most jews in the world are not yet shomer shabbos and follow “rabbis” who not only permit carrying in the street on shabbos, they permit doing so even where there is no eruv. The greater toeles in this thread would be to steer the discussion towards, how do we reach out to those people and get them to recognize there is a shabbos and there is an issue with carrying in the street, instead of hurling half truths, rumor and innuendo about Rabbonim of this and the previous generation.

His Royal Highness –

tobg –

While most poskim would agree with this statement, Rav Moshe upholds that we do count the occupants of cars in the tally.

david1999

Member

shmooze1 –

What makes Brooklyn entirely enclosed with man made mechitzos?

Where are the man made mechitzos in Coney Island and Brighton Beach?

is all the sides (water or man-made) within the 12 square mil area?

its difficult to argue with “facts” but I wonder how they missed east side of brooklyn. anyone who drives on belt exits 8-19 can clearly see water.

For Boro Park there is no need to included Brighton Beach in the mechitzos. For Flatbush, under the Boardwalk there are gates that can be used as the mechitzos (which also exclude the people on the beach in the tally).

According to Rav Moshe Brooklyn does not need to be enclosed by mechitzos that are within an area of 12×12 mil. Notwithstanding a reshus harabbim, mechitzos change the status of the area contained therein. Rav Moshe allows for mechitzos to be within 32 mil. The Brooklyn mechitzos are much less.

how many years did all jewish men and woman boys and girls never carried on shabbos with out a boro park eruv my grand parents never carried on shabbos any where any place since 1945 till 1995 there was no boro park or flatbush eruv. we need a new eruv for all the jewish men and woman

HERSHY57712011:

I am sure that there were years that there was no kosher butcher in Boro Park and Flatbush, maybe we should never have allowed one to open in these communities. So what, there were years in Warsaw and Odessa that there was no eruv and the rabbanim always sought means to establish an eruv.

david1999

Member

” No one uses the mechitzos to carry in Brooklyn. You are totally confused and in any case are not interested in the emes”

I know people who live on 9Th ave outside of the Boro Park eruv.These people and many others , carry on Shabbos believing that there is a backup eruv.However there is no backup eruv with lechies and kores .The people who made the eruv justify themselves by letting the people rely on the mechitzos.I called the big machers who made the evev ,they will not tell anybody what they are using for the backup ,they are keeping it a secret.This is my conclusion and I believe this to be emes. If anybody doubts what I am saying then call the Eruv Society of Boro Park and find out for yourself.

david1999

“The local people in that area know which blocks they can carry on. There are many layers to the back-up eruvin. No one allows people to rely on the mechitzos for a heter”

The mechitzos only cover three sides so how can anyone allow people to rely on them.”

I have ask many people who carry outside of the main Boro Park eruv, where is the the backup eruv? They have no idea where the back up eruv is . As far as layers in the eruv,we are talking eruvs not cake. Did you call the Eruv Society of Boro Park yet?

It tells me that tumill is trying to keep the discourse civilized.

david1999

“where does it say that those making use of an eruv need to know where the eruv is situated? The only important issue for people to know is until where they can carry, but they do not need to know where the actual tzuras hapesach is located.”

That statement does not make sense to me at all.Does anyone out there agree with david1999?

popa_bar_abba –

If he was civilized he would seek the emes.

tumill –

david1999

Member

When I called the Boro Park Eruv People they told me to look on the map. Isn’t THE tzuras hapesach and the eruv the same thing?Why where the eruv boundaries in Europe not divulged?

tumill and shmooze1,

It seems both of you are upset about people carrying outside of the boro park eruv. It’s possible that those people are relying on some type of backup but non of us will ever know where it is. There will always be people who don’t know how to follow rules but that doesn’t posul the whole bp eruv.

I think david1999 did a great job explaining the whole issue about the validity of eruv but i don’t think you can blame david for not including some street into the bp eruv which he didn’t create.

ok