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I was told by a Rebbe of mine that he spoke to R’ Moshe about the eruv question. R’ Moshe said the 1 in 5 rule applies for any city. He said that Brooklyn has another thing which lowers the number needed – the Coney Island beaches. He said that during the summer, you don’t need 3 million people. Therefore, even if the number of residents is below 3 million, you can get the 600,000 people that need to be outside when you include the beach.
Bottom line. Has anyone changed their opinion regarding their use of the BP Eruv because of this thread? Why is everyone going at it with such gusto? Halevay everyone would work on their ahavas yisroel with such gusto.
david 1999Member
” Moreover, the Boro Park eruv has fewer such problems than all, since there are many back-up eruvin
WHERE ARE SOME OF THE BACK-UP ERUVIN? I COULDN’T FIND ONE!
David –
What do you mean?
Fine but Brooklyn in area is greater than twelve mil by twelve mil. Rav Moshe follows the Shulchan Aruch and requires a daily shishim ribo (see 4:88 regarding the beaches). Consequentially, we still fall short of 3 million.
How do you know that you still fall short of 3 million (using the aforementioned criteria) in a 12×12 mil area subset?
Now I understand.
This is a “our gedolim” and “your gedolim” issue.
You really don’t respect “our gedolim”, and think we don’t respect “your gedolim”.
Also, since you read the teshuva, you ought to know that the numbers he uses are 4-5 times of shishim ribo. that equals 2.4m-3m. The population of Brooklyn has always exceeded that.
i am 50-50 on the boropark erv on shabbos yomtov
Member
david 1999Member
” Moreover, the Boro Park eruv has fewer such problems than all, since there are many back-up eruvin
WHERE ARE SOME OF THE BACK-UP ERUVIN? I COULDN’T FIND ONE!
Can you tell us where one or two of the back-up eruvs are?
Then I will know that you live in Brooklyn.
You arguments or the lack thereof, demonstrates that you have a poor sense of the underlying issues. All your ancillary taanos are childish. Again, did you stop to think for a moment before you posted? Many eruvin rely on Bais Hakevaros, even those of non-Jews (see for starters the Tikvas Zecharia). Those who erect eruvin always seek the best routes that entail the least tzuras hapesachim. But I guess when we are referring to the Boro Park eruv its no holds barred.
apushatayi –
“Bottom line. Has anyone changed their opinion regarding their use of the BP Eruv because of this thread? Why is everyone going at it with such gusto? Halevay everyone would work on their ahavas yisroel with such gusto.”
tumill –
“WHERE ARE SOME OF THE BACK-UP ERUVIN? I COULDN’T FIND ONE!”
I am sure if I showed you a tzuras hapesach you would not know bein yemino lsmolo. Please, you are not interested that there be an eruv altogether. This is typical of the anti-eruv group to seek all means to negate eruvin. In any case, the back-up eruvin were established for two reasons: 1) In case the eruv is ripped on Shabbos. 2) That people like you should not be able to get their hands on it. Hence this eruv is not publicized. Stay out of things you know nothing about.
yes or no
His Royal Highness –
“What do you mean?”
“How do you know that you still fall short of 3 million (using the aforementioned criteria) in a 12×12 mil area subset?”
popa_bar_abba –
“Now I understand. This is a “our gedolim” and “your gedolim” issue. You really don’t respect “our gedolim”, and think we don’t respect “your gedolim”.”
No. I respect your Gedolim, but you don’t respect our Gedolim. You never learnt through “your Gedolim’s” teshuvos I did.
“Also, since you read the teshuva, you ought to know that the numbers he uses are 4-5 times of shishim ribo. that equals 2.4m-3m. The population of Brooklyn has always exceeded that.”
tumill, of course. Please explain of what interest is it to you? Please stay out of things you know nothing about.
Can you tell us where one or two of the back-up eruvs are?
Yontel –
They will never understand.
Khal Machzikei Hadas Belz gave Hashgacha on a shechita. When Rav Katz insisted on additional Chumros the butcher started hashgacha shopping. The lay leaders of Khal tried to pressure the Rav to ease up and be satisfied with the standards of the other Rabbonim. Rav Katz refused to budge & resigned.
david1999
Member
tumill –
“WHERE ARE SOME OF THE BACK-UP ERUVIN? I COULDN’T FIND ONE!”
“I am sure if I showed you a tzuras hapesach you would not know bein yemino lsmolo. Please, you are not interested that there be an eruv altogether. This is typical of the anti-eruv group to seek all means to negate eruvin. In any case, the back-up eruvin were established for two reasons: 1) In case the eruv is ripped on Shabbos. 2) That people like you should not be able to get their hands on it. Hence this eruv is not publicized. Stay out of things you know nothing about. “
I am not from the anti eruv-group.I personally, do not use the eruv.My problem is seeing people carrying outside of the eruv..
Many people who use the eruv heard of a back-up and other people who use the eruv, told me they know where the eruv is, and that there is no back up eruv.I know people who carry from outside of the eruv and bring in extra food to a kiddish I would like to know, if the people who hold for the eruv are they allowed to eat of that food.
David –
How do the other poskim you refer to understand shishim ribo?
(However, those who understood that shishim ribo applies to a city would have to explain what halchically defines a city.
Considering that New York City — of which Brooklyn is a part of — has a population in excess of 8 million, seemingly the other poskim you refer to would to have to prevent an eruv in NYC.
FWIW, Long Island, which Brooklyn is part of together with Queens Nassau and Suffolk, has a population of over 7.5 million.
Moreover, as Rav Moshe admitted there were cities that erected eruvin that contained a population greater than shishim ribo.)
And how did Rav Moshe explain why those eruvin were permitted in those cities with a population greater than shishim ribo?
Why would we exclude the summer tourists and guests? My understanding is that Rav Moshe uses the highest population day of the year.
And most importantly, even after we agree we don’t include the entire Brooklyn (since it is greater than 12×12 mil), what makes you confident that the 12×12 subset still does not exceed 3 million? Brooklyn’s counted census sometimes came to 2.75 million. Then you must add the undercount. And you must add the workers/guests/tourists. Surely that is well in excess of 3 million for Brooklyn as a whole, so even a subset may contain 3 million on its own.
And why then did Rav Dovid shlita, while allowing it in Chicago, still oppose it — even now — in Brooklyn?
And perhaps the 12×12 mil subset for Chicago has a smaller population than the 12×12 mil subset for Brooklyn.
Which metzius/facts are you asserting Rav Moshe was mistaken about? Brooklyn’s population? Brooklyn’s workers/guests/tourist count? And whatever facts it is you assert he was mistaken about, what was the correct figures and what figures did he assume? (And on what basis do you believe he assumed the figures you claim he assumed.)
I wonder if there is anything else that bothers you as much as eruvin. You may not be part of the organized anti-eruv group but you are a tumeler. I reiterate there are local eruvin on certain blocks. There most definitely are back-up eruvin. As a matter of fact there is more than one back-up.
david1999
Member
“I wonder if there is anything else that bothers you as much as eruvin. You may not be part of the organized anti-eruv group but you are a tumeler. I reiterate there are local eruvin on certain blocks. There most definitely are back-up eruvin. As a matter of fact there is more than one back-up.”
If I see a frum looking person smoking on Shabbos it will bother me.If I see a frum looking person carrying outside of the eruv it also bothers me. Why would there be a need to make local eruvin on certain blocks? If their block is in the Boro Park eruv shouldn’t their block be also included?
His Royal Highness –
Most apply the criterion to the street.
Absolutely not. As I mentioned Rav Moshe required a daily shishim ribo. Rav Moshe did not accept the fact that in the summertime the beaches bring in a larger population. (In any case, the beaches are contained by their own mechitzos.)
[Even more so, at the same time there are more people who commute out of Brooklyn to work 424,000 (NYC Department of City Planning, Table CTPP P-6, P-7, 2003).] Now only factor the 12×12 mil subset of Brooklyn and the tally would be even less.
They were talking about a 12×12 mil subset when they made the tally in Chicago.
tumller –
“If I see a frum looking person smoking on Shabbos it will bother me.If I see a frum looking person carrying outside of the eruv it also bothers me. Why would there be a need to make local eruvin on certain blocks? If their block is in the Boro Park eruv shouldn’t their block be also included?”
shmooze1 –
“How is it possible to check eruv Shabos a minimum of three eruvs?Are they checking the eruvs Thursday night?”
They are checked constantly.
David –
Most apply the criterion to the street.
Only to the streets the eruv covers? IOW, you are saying that the other poskim would allow an eruv on any streets that don’t have a shishim ribo/600,000 within the eruv coverage area — irregardless if there’s shishim ribo in the city itself?
If they never defined it why is Rav Moshe’s definition a “chiddush”?
The number of people who actually commute into the borough to work that I have seen tallied is 235,000 people.
Where is that figure coming from? Also, you are not accounting for tourists and for guests of family and friends.
BTW, although the most recent census counted over 2.5 million in Brooklyn, in previous census’ (perhaps used by Rav Moshe) it peaked at 2.75 million (also prior to adding in the undercount and prior to adding the guests/workers/tourists).
Now only factor the 12×12 mil subset of Brooklyn and the tally would be even less.
You’ve said this before, but it doesn’t answer the point. You started with over 3 million in Brooklyn. How much of Brooklyn’s population do you lose when you only factor the 12×12 subset? Perhaps the 12×12 covers the vast majority of Brooklyn, and although it doesn’t cover the entire Borough you don’t lose enough population to bring the count to under 3 million. You haven’t demonstrated any proof the count falls sufficiently.
Why don’t you ask Rav Dovid himself? He is easily reachable by phone or in person at the Yeshiva. How does he explain what you think he is being inconsistent about.
The most recent published census at that time was the 1970 census, which enumerated (prior to adding any of the earlier discussed required adjustments) 2.6 million. In any event, does Rav Moshe write how much he believed the population was and how many workers he counted in? Where are you getting the population figures you are citing as what Rav Moshe believed when composing his p’sak?
Rav Moshe believed that that both Boro Park and Flatbush contain a population of over shishim ribo.
Why would this even be a factor? The 12×12 mil encompass a lot more area than either Boro Park or Flatbush.
His Royal Highness –
To say that a city is defined by the size of the Digali Hamidbar should have been mentioned by the Rishonim. If the Rishonim could ask where does Rashi learn that shishim ribo is a criterion of a reshus harabbim, how much more so can we ask on Rav Moshe where does he learn that this is the classification of a city.
I gave a citation. More people go out of Brooklyn to work than come into Brooklyn.
I give you the job of finding out. I have tried; he is really not interested in talking about the inyan. I believe that he maintains that since his father objected no one can come and say otherwise.
As I mentioned he should have adjusted for the Boro Park teshuvah in 1981. See the end of O.C. 4:88.
The 1980 census was conducted throughout that year. It was tallied the following year. Dissemination of the geographic data breakdowns would not have begun earlier than late ’81. Easy access to the information in the pre-internet age would take much longer than even that.
Does Reb Moshe’s psak prohibit having a private eruv in one’s own driveway and backyard in Flatbush or Boro Park (like many people do for Succos or year-round)? What halachic reason, if any, would such an eruv be different than a neighborhood eruv? And where would a block-wide eruv fit in according to Reb Moshe?
The only “fact” that should concern anyone is what their own Rav has to say about this inyan.
“The only “fact” that should concern anyone is what their own Rav has to say about this inyan.”
It’s unfortunate, but on certain issues, most Rabbonim will not paskin out of the box, l’kula, even privately, for fear of public perception and rejection.
shlishi –
“Does Reb Moshe’s psak prohibit having a private eruv in one’s own driveway and backyard in Flatbush or Boro Park (like many people do for Succos or year-round)? What halachic reason, if any, would such an eruv be different than a neighborhood eruv? And where would a block-wide eruv fit in according to Reb Moshe?”
Driveway and backyard eruvin are part of a reshus hayachid. No one takes issue with them. However, block eruvin would not be allowed according to those who argue that Rav Moshe would not allow an eruvin in Brooklyn.
cherrybim –
“It’s unfortunate, but on certain issues, most Rabbonim will not paskin out of the box, l’kula, even privately, for fear of public perception and rejection.”
David1999: why didn’t anyone let Reb Moshe know of the alleged factual errors he utilized during his lifetime? And if someone did, why didn’t Reb Moshe retract?
david1999
Member
tumller –
“If I see a frum looking person smoking on Shabbos it will bother me.If I see a frum looking person carrying outside of the eruv it also bothers me. Why would there be a need to make local eruvin on certain blocks? If their block is in the Boro Park eruv shouldn’t their block be also included?”
Could you please elaborate the reason that you don’t believe me.
What are some of the blocks in Boro Park that have their own eruv?
“It’s unfortunate, but on certain issues, most Rabbonim will not paskin out of the box, l’kula, even privately, for fear of public perception and rejection.”
I am not looking for an “out of the box” psak from my rav. I am looking for an answer, yes or no, assur, muttar, kosher, treif.
“If I see a frum looking person smoking on Shabbos it will bother me.If I see a frum looking person carrying outside of the eruv it also bothers me.”
Why? Perhaps he has a Rav who issued an out of the box kula 🙂
“If I see a frum looking person smoking on Shabbos it will bother me.If I see a frum looking person carrying outside of the eruv it also bothers me.”
Why? Perhaps he has a Rav who issued an out of the box kula 🙂
And why did Rav Moshe rule against an eruv in Manhattan, which clearly has less than a 3 million population?
“I am looking for an answer, yes or no, assur, muttar, kosher, treif.”
Keep looking apushatayid, keep looking.
you mean shop for a heter until someone says yes?
Even David’s own numbers bring you perilously close to 3 million in Brooklyn. 2.5+ mil. 2010 population count + 1/4 mil. commuters + 2.8% undercount. I dont know where he gets the commuter and undercount numbers, but even assuming he isn’t underreporting them you are still bordering 3 mil. Considering past census’ were as high as 2.75 mil. population count alone, you were easily over. And considering it is an issur d’oraysa that is chayiv misa, prudency would surely be in order.
tumill –
Clark Kent –
shlishi –
No. Why not try to seek real answers and not just shoot from the hip.
I wish people could read.
“+ 1/4 mil. commuters”
Minus + 1/4 mil. commuters out of Brooklyn.
David1999: And the “ancillary reasons” that make an eruv not possible in Manhattan wouldn’t be applicable in Brooklyn for what reason?
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