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shlishi –
“How can that be if both Rebbes oppose the eruv?”
Because Rav Aharon was not originally opposed to an eruv. Once the Zalonim made it an issue of frumkite then the Aharonim followed. This is demonstrated by the fact that many Aharonim carry in Boro Park, but not openly in Williamsburg.
What record? Please cite one of his writings.
They had an agenda, and did not stop at anything.
No. I mean that they have a rav but not a particular rebbe. Yes do the math. There are approximately 20,000 families in BP. How many belong to the major Chassidisim?
Feif Un,
The Letter was signed against the Flatbush Eiruv specifically and was signed by Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zt’l, Rav Aaron Shechter shlita,Rav Hillel David shlita, and Rav Feivel Cohen shlita(Mechaber of Badei HaShulachan).
Furthermore Rav Feivel Cohen headed a delegation to Rav Elyashiv shlita to present the shaila to him and he gave over the written psak of assur as was circulated at the time.
All the above Rabbonim hold the Boro Park eiruv is assur however they did not wish to sign publicly against it in order to be able to ensure that the Boro Park Rabbonim who were Pro the Eiruv would not be able to intrude on their “turf” in Flatbush. (This was stated publicly by Rav Cohen shlita in front of his entire shul).
Rav Moshe wrote clearly that Brooklyn is a Reshus Harabim D’Oraisoh to state otherwise is to simply overlook the fact that it is written in Igros Moshe.
To state that Rav Moshe “ignored” the Gedolei Achronim is basically admitting that one is a complete Am Ha’aretz.
Yes there were Eiruvin in Europe.
Europe was a lot smaller the Brooklyn is today and the need for an eiruv was overwhelming. Meaning it was needed for basic things like going to the bathroom and getting one’s food from the communal oven.
Do you follow the Mishna Berurah?
Well the Mishna Berurah himself writes that the eiruvin in Europe were established based on many Kulos and a “Ba’al Nefesh should be Machmir. He makes quite clear that he was not very happy with the stae of Eiruvin in Europe.
Did the Mishna Berura also ignore the Achronim?
There are no mainstream competent Flatbush Poskim that I am aware of that hold of the eiruv in Flatbush. It was actually built by a Rov from Monsey who is the son of one of the Gedolei HaDor and when his Father was made aware that he went against the express wishes of all the Rabbonim of the area he was furious. I cannot report the exact exchange that occured since there are conflicting reports suffice to say that his father lent his signature as well against the eiruv. ( I am not stating the identity on the off chance said Rav has done Teshuva)
The bottom line is, many rabbonim said ok to use many said not ok. Even if it just one Rav. If it is your Rav, follow him, whether the answer is yes or no. Don’t worry about everyone else and their Rav.
This is fascinating. Now you think Rav Moshe was tricked by “askanim” and didn’t find out the basic facts before making a psak which he knew would severely inconvenience the largest frum population in the world.
And that nobody bothered to correct him, or he just blindly ignored them.
Yes, if that is who you think Rav Moshe was, then you should not listen to him.
However, that is not my Rav Moshe. And you should not think that.
But, out of curiosity, tell us about these “askanim”. Just what was motivating them to want there to be no eruv in Brooklyn?
Did they own real estate in queens?
You are going really far out here in your need to carry your tallis to shul. Why don’t you just bring it on friday and you can go back to respecting gedolim.
David:
You are making wild assertions, some of which are:
Rav Moshe was easily manipulated on a whole host of basic facts.
Rav Ahron (Satmar Rebbe) said the eruv is no good simply to act like a stooge to save face.
All the Roshei Yeshiva are simple minded folks who just called a simple minded posek who told them the eruv was no good.
“Askanim” had some unknown, unstated interest in preventing an eruv in Brooklyn, and they went out and successfully fooled Gedolei Yisroel and poskim past and present. What was these mysterious “askamim’s” gain?
What does the Rebbes of Bobov hold of the B.P. Eruv?
The previous Bobover Rav ???”?Z”tl acquiesced to the request of the Debereciner Rav Z”tl not to let his Olam use the eruv made by the Mishne Halochos Shlita (who published his correpondence with Reb Moshe Z”tl) The Debereciner Rav Z”tl’s opposition was not based on Halachic issues per se. (I was at Debereciner Rav’s Friday night shiur at the time he voiced his opposition)
Reb Yontel the male yenta
Member
“If there is an Eruv, which means that the Rabbonim behind it are credible & competent ???? ????? & the Askanim behind it are credible ???? ??? than there is a Backup Eruv”
I have told the people who are involved in the every day matter of the Boro Park eruv that people are carrying outside of the eruv.They replied that this is not our problem :they have to check out the map and it is their responsibility and not ours. I believe that the Rabonim that first signed that you can make an eruv in Boro Park, only signed for the concept of permitting an eruv in Boro Park , not the exact whereabouts of the eruv. The people who then began putting up the eruv ran into many problems, such as anti eruv people ripping down the eruv., They also found out that the Chinese feel it is bad luck for them to have a string connecting two houses . Therefore, the people who were making the eruv had to make a pole outside of the school yard on 49 st between 8Th and 9Th ave and attach the eruv from the pole to a frum house. It was also necessary to make an eruv just covering half of 9th ave because mainly Chinese people live between 8th & 9th Aves.As far as a backup eruv, there aren’t any that are constructed from lechis and korahs(strings)B’deeved, maybe they are using something else, like the water? who knows!
If you don’t believe that that the Rabbonim behind it are credible & competent ???? ????? & the Askanim behind it are credible ???? ??? than DON’T USE IT
If the Rabbonim behind it are credible & competent ???? ?????
then they are top of day to day operations
If Reb Moshe Z’tl was not bound by ????? ??????? then why are Rav Roth, Rav Katz, Rav Miller, Rav Hager et al bound by Reb Moshe Zt”l ?
To counter a specific psak on a shayla that was issued by a Gadol Hador, which was accepted and maintained, is a total different ballgame!!
I would point out that the problem that was raised at the start of the thread is one of the very issues that were raised by those oppossed to the initial construction of the eruv.
Mainly that it is very hard for people to remain aware of the exact boundries of th eiruv which can ( and is alleged here to have done) cause actual Chillul Shabbos.
While at the time these Rabbonim were laughed at for being so “simpleminded” it seems that there is reason to beleive that it is they who were correct.
As it is quite well known that the Gedolim of previous Generations were opposed to the building of an Eiruv (For whatever reason) and it would seem that it is only present day Rabbonim who have permitted it one could perhaps see from here the wisdom of Chazal “If the elders say to destroy and the youn ones say to build, then destroy for the destruction of the elders is building and the building of the young ones is destruction”
Woe to to the Dor that has forgotten the Gedolim who built the Torah World we live in.
A quote from the Minchas Elozor Zy”a (not relevant whether there is or isnt an Ertuv in BP)
????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?”? (????’ ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???????? ????) ??????? ???? ????? ??”?, ??? ???? ???? ???? ??????, ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ???’ ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???”?.
???? ?? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ???? ????? ???”? ??????? ?”? f? ????? ??’ ??? ???? ??? ???? ???’ ????? ??? ?????, ??? ??????? ????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ??”? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?????”? ?????”? ?”? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ????”? ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ?”? (????) ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????.” (?????? ??”? ???? ??”?)
He himself used the Eiruv only once a year
If Reb Moshe Z’tl was not bound by ????? ??????? then why are Rav Roth, Rav Katz, Rav Miller, Rav Hager et al bound by Reb Moshe Zt”l ? WAs not re this ???? only but his ???? ?????? in general. It is not for me? to judge If that was his ???? ??????? then that was his ???? ??????? but why are Rav Roth, Rav Katz, Rav Miller, Rav Hager et al bound by Reb Moshe Zt”l ?
Reb Yontel the male yenta
Member
“If you don’t believe that that the Rabbonim behind it are credible & competent ???? ????? & the Askanim behind it are credible ???? ??? than DON’T USE IT
If the Rabbonim behind it are credible & competent ???? ?????
then they are top of day to day operations”
They will tell you if you want details go to the people who put up the eruv .
Check it out for yourself, if I am not telling you the emmes .
Check it out for yourself,
I do not need to. I know Rav Katz personally as the ultimate ??? ??? If there was a problem he would say so and loud & clear. Do you know why he resigned his position in Belz where was ????? ?? ???? ????
Ben Levi –
“All the above Rabbonim hold the Boro Park eiruv is assur however they did not wish to sign publicly against it in order to be able to ensure that the Boro Park Rabbonim who were Pro the Eiruv would not be able to intrude on their “turf” in Flatbush. (This was stated publicly by Rav Cohen shlita in front of his entire shul).”
“Rav Moshe wrote clearly that Brooklyn is a Reshus Harabim D’Oraisoh to state otherwise is to simply overlook the fact that it is written in Igros Moshe.”
“To state that Rav Moshe “ignored” the Gedolei Achronim is basically admitting that one is a complete Am Ha’aretz.
Yes there were Eiruvin in Europe.”
“Europe was a lot smaller the Brooklyn is today and the need for an eiruv was overwhelming. Meaning it was needed for basic things like going to the bathroom and getting one’s food from the communal oven.”
There were eruvin in cities that contained shishim ribo prior to WWII. Stop rewriting history. There were eruvin in Warsaw, Lodz and Oddesa all containing populations around or greater than shishim ribo. They were going to establish an eruv in Paris prior to WWII, as well. The population there was approximitly 3 million.
Show me one posek besides for Rav Moshe who stated that the reason for eruvin was because of food. The Chasam Sofer (99) states that the reason for eruivn is to save people who will mistakenly carry. The Perishah (O.C. 395:1) is to increase our oneg Shabbos.
“Do you follow the Mishna Berurah?
Well the Mishna Berurah himself writes that the eiruvin in Europe were established based on many Kulos and a “Ba’al Nefesh should be Machmir. He makes quite clear that he was not very happy with the stae of Eiruvin in Europe.
Did the Mishna Berura also ignore the Achronim?”
“There are no mainstream competent Flatbush Poskim that I am aware of that hold of the eiruv in Flatbush. It was actually built by a Rov from Monsey who is the son of one of the Gedolei HaDor and when his Father was made aware that he went against the express wishes of all the Rabbonim of the area he was furious. I cannot report the exact exchange that occured since there are conflicting reports suffice to say that his father lent his signature as well against the eiruv. ( I am not stating the identity on the off chance said Rav has done Teshuva)”
Teshuvah! Maybe you mean those who tried a terroristic tactic, to have a catering hall remove his hechsher because of the great aveira that he gave a hechsher on an eruv, did teshuvah?
Of course we believe you. That is why it took 15 years after his death for anyone to figure it out.
Maybe you are missing a couple of steps. (and a lot of respect?)
What makes Boro Park and Flatbush two different kehillos, anymore than 13th Avenue and 18th Avenue would be two different kehillos? Why can’t a “Flatbush” Rov have a say in a “Boro Park matter” any less than a 13th Avenue Rov can have in a “18th Avenue matter”?
It’s pretty close to 3 million. What’s the difference if it is 2.8 million or 2.6 million? And furthermore, why are you limiting it to “Brooklyn’s” population? Brooklyn is physically connected to, and part of the same municipal city, as Queens. Which itself has over 2 million. Why are you separating out Brooklyn? If you’re doing that, why not already separate “Boro Park” into its own city for the purpose of counting population for eruv purposes?
popa_bar_abba –
“This is fascinating. Now you think Rav Moshe was tricked by “askanim” and didn’t find out the basic facts before making a psak which he knew would severely inconvenience the largest frum population in the world.
And that nobody bothered to correct him, or he just blindly ignored them.
Yes, if that is who you think Rav Moshe was, then you should not listen to him.
However, that is not my Rav Moshe. And you should not think that.”
“But, out of curiosity, tell us about these “askanim”. Just what was motivating them to want there to be no eruv in Brooklyn?
Did they own real estate in queens?”
“You are going really far out here in your need to carry your tallis to shul. Why don’t you just bring it on friday and you can go back to respecting gedolim.”
Right I should also push the stroller before Shabbos!! I follow the Perishah (O.C. 395:1) and use an eruv because it increases my oneg Shabbos. I also follow the Bnai Yissachar and carry in all eruvin. I have more respect for gedolim, than most of the debaters on this board, as I actually learnt through their teshuvos.
His Royal Highness –
“You are making wild assertions, some of which are:
Rav Moshe was easily manipulated on a whole host of basic facts.
Rav Ahron (Satmar Rebbe) said the eruv is no good simply to act like a stooge to save face.”
“All the Roshei Yeshiva are simple minded folks who just called a simple minded posek who told them the eruv was no good.”
“Askanim” had some unknown, unstated interest in preventing an eruv in Brooklyn, and they went out and successfully fooled Gedolei Yisroel and poskim past and present. What was these mysterious “askamim’s” gain?”
David1999
First off none of the Four Rabbonim mentioned signed onto that Kol Korah and they all said so publicly.
The specific reason they did not sign that Kol Koreh is in order to prevent people from BP interfering in Flatbush.
Again this was stated publicly by Rav Feivel Cohen ( I personally heard it).
I am unaware of the fact that Lodz or Odessa had shishim riboh, in the case of Warsaw which did have Shishim Ribboh there is a river running through the middle of Warsaw which complicated matters.
As for your statements about the Mishna Berura.
First off to say the “we are now aware that the overwhelming majority of Rishonim held of Shishim Ribboh” is comical.
It’s simply untrue.
You can try and say that there are a number of Rishonim who did hold like that however the Mishna Berurah’s two main problems (from memory since it’s a number of years since I learnt these inyonim) with it is 1) since it is a machlokes rishonim it should be regarded as safeik d’oiraisa l’chumra 2) The Shulchan Aruch qoutes it as a “yesh Omrim” meaning he did not hold of it.
Many Gedolei Poskim in fact held that the real reason why people were somech on “shishim ribboh” in Europe was because of “dochak Hashoh” even though it should have been sofeik d’oraisa l’chumra.
In fact the Psak of the Gra (qouted by an earlier poster) never to rely on eiruvin was based on the fact the Gra held unacceptable kulos had been introduced to eiruvin in account of the great need for them in Europe.
The thrust of Rav Aaron Kotler’s teshuva on the Eiruv as well if I recall is to show that one cannot rely on shishim ribboh B’zman Hazeh where the need for an eiruv is not “shas hadchak” as in Europe.
As for Paris Rav Chaim Ozer in consultation with the Chazon Ish in fact paskened that Paris was a Reshus Harabim if not for the sea walls the teshuva was to Rav munk zt”l and is printed in AchiEzer.
I find it amusing that so far you have deemed the Mishna Berurah followed by Rav Moshe as “misinformed” in order to justify your position.
As for Rav Wosner’s reaction to his son there are witnesses to it and they were far from the terrorists. Rabbi Simcha Klohr, Ruby Shron, Rav Feivel Cohen among others.
tumill –
I have told the people who are involved in the every day matter of the Boro Park eruv that people are carrying outside of the eruv.They replied that this is not our problem :they have to check out the map and it is their responsibility and not ours.
“I believe that the Rabonim that first signed that you can make an eruv in Boro Park, only signed for the concept of permitting an eruv in Boro Park , not the exact whereabouts of the eruv.”
So what, they all trust Rav Katz shlita.
“The people who then began putting up the eruv ran into many problems, such as anti eruv people ripping down the eruv.”
This does not happen amnymore.
“They also found out that the Chinese feel it is bad luck for them to have a string connecting two houses . Therefore, the people who were making the eruv had to make a pole outside of the school yard on 49 st between 8Th and 9Th ave and attach the eruv from the pole to a frum house. It was also necessary to make an eruv just covering half of 9th ave because mainly Chinese people live between 8th & 9th Aves.”
“As far as a backup eruv, there aren’t any that are constructed from lechis and korahs(strings)”
And how do you know this sir? You are a good story teller, but its fiction.
“B’deeved, maybe they are using something else, like the water? who knows!”
Right who knows. You most definitly don’t.
People should be so passionate about their ahavas yisroel as they are their opinion regarding eruvin in brooklyn.
fdm –
To counter a specific psak on a shayla that was issued by a Gadol Hador, which was accepted and maintained, is a total different ballgame!!”
Ben Lev –
I would point out that the problem that was raised at the start of the thread is one of the very issues that were raised by those oppossed to the initial construction of the eruv.
Mainly that it is very hard for people to remain aware of the exact boundries of th eiruv which can ( and is alleged here to have done) cause actual Chillul Shabbos.
While at the time these Rabbonim were laughed at for being so “simpleminded” it seems that there is reason to beleive that it is they who were correct.
As it is quite well known that the Gedolim of previous Generations were opposed to the building of an Eiruv (For whatever reason) and it would seem that it is only present day Rabbonim who have permitted it one could perhaps see from here the wisdom of Chazal “If the elders say to destroy and the youn ones say to build, then destroy for the destruction of the elders is building and the building of the young ones is destruction”
Woe to to the Dor that has forgotten the Gedolim who built the Torah World we live in.”
popa_bar_abb –
“Of course we believe you. That is why it took 15 years after his death for anyone to figure it out.”
“Maybe you are missing a couple of steps. (and a lot of respect?)”
Respect? You don’t even know his teshuvos.
His Royal Highness –
“What makes Boro Park and Flatbush two different kehillos, anymore than 13th Avenue and 18th Avenue would be two different kehillos? Why can’t a “Flatbush” Rov have a say in a “Boro Park matter” any less than a 13th Avenue Rov can have in a “18th Avenue matter”?”
“It’s pretty close to 3 million. What’s the difference if it is 2.8 million or 2.6 million? And furthermore, why are you limiting it to “Brooklyn’s” population? Brooklyn is physically connected to, and part of the same municipal city, as Queens. Which itself has over 2 million. Why are you separating out Brooklyn? If you’re doing that, why not already separate “Boro Park” into its own city for the purpose of counting population for eruv purposes?”
I don’t know what question you are waiting for an answer on.
Respect? You don’t even know his teshuvos.
I’m not sure what my scholarship has to do with your lack of respect.
If in fact it is true that we don’t include the entire population of Brooklyn, why then are we using the U.S. Census’ population figures for the entire Brooklyn, rather than just the 12×12 mil subset?
Are you saying Reb Moshe, in his teshuva asserting a 3 million population, was saying there was 3 million in just the 12×12 mil subset alone?
Also, would not the population count include a) the residents (which will be greater than the 10 years enumerated Census count which misses people – thereby requiring the usage of the bi-annual estimated Census count that guesses how many people they missed) plus b) the daily guests and workers?
Ben Levi –
The specific reason they did not sign that Kol Koreh is in order to prevent people from BP interfering in Flatbush.
Well they did. Lodz had shishim ribo by 1931. When they established the Odessa eruv the assumed that it contained shishim ribo.
Bube mases. The other side of the Vistule River was called Parga not Warsaw. Warsaw had shishim ribo by the year 1900. Prior to the war there were over a million people on the Warsaw side of the river. I know Warsaw is a major problem for those who oppose the eruv.
Sorry I believe the Naroler rav more than them. In any case, it makes no sense that a father would express anger about his son to others.
popa_bar_abba –
“I don’t know what question you are waiting for an answer on.”
“I’m not sure what my scholarship has to do with your lack of respect.”
I took the time to understand Rav Moshe. You just shoot from the hip. People who claim things in the name of Rav Moshe and did not study his teshuvos are showing disrespect. Because I prove that Rav Moshe would allow the current eruvin, if he would know the facts on the ground, does not make me disrespectful. Unless, of course, the halachah is one always has to oppose eruvin.
I am unfamiliar with the facts. However, I have enough confidence in Rav Moshe that he did not “shoot from the hip”, without looking into the facts.
People who claim things in the name of Rav Moshe and did not study his teshuvos are showing disrespect.
That sounds cute, but makes no sense.
His Royal Highness –
Your right we only use the twelve mil by twelve mil subset. Rav Moshe was led to believe that there were nearly three million people that reside in Brooklyn and over a million come into the borough daily to work. He therefore understood that in an area of twelve mil by twelve mil there were more than three million people.
Yes. As above.
popa_bar_abba –
“I am unfamiliar with the facts. However, I have enough confidence in Rav Moshe that he did not “shoot from the hip”, without looking into the facts.”
“That sounds cute, but makes no sense.”
No. I mean that they have a rav but not a particular rebbe. Yes do the math. There are approximately 20,000 families in BP. How many belong to the major Chassidisim?
No wonder 18th Ave park, as well as other “nice” locations, appear the way they do on Shabbos. Instead of building yeshivos, we build eiruvin, machlookes and lamdonim like david 1999 who can belittle the people who are responsible for our Yiddishkeit.
So, tell us how this happened according to you. Rav Moshe issued his first psak based on being tricked. Then, everybody who wanted the eruv responded, bringing 11 halachic arguments which he responded to in the second teshuva.
Did anyone suggest he was wrong on the facts? Maybe they didn’t feel like looking into it? Maybe he just stubbornly didn’t care?
Is that what you think?
Besides, why don’t you link us the place where he says there are 3 million people living in Brooklyn. Why do you keep asserting it instead of citing it?
By reading it only to argue with him, you do not give kavod.
By asserting that he issued a landmark psak without due regard for the facts, you are mevazeh him.
shmooze1 –
“The original subject is not if one may use the Boro Park erev or not.The problem is that for many years ,there are no signs telling people where the boundaries of the eruv are.There are people who carry food into shuls outside of the eruv .One can not rely on the back-up eruv,because it’s just a buba meisa and it does not exist!.Most Rabonim believe that if one does not hold from the eruv, that person should not eat any of the food that is carried in on Shabbos. I would venture to say that NO ONE should eat of the food that is brought into the shuls from outside of the eruv on Shabbos.”
There is no logical reason to not include the census under-count anywhere. The Census Bureau has always acknowledged they have an under-count. They are mandated by the U.S. Constitution to make an actual enumeration every 10 years, for the purposes of allocating Congressional representation. By Constitutional law it must be an actual count, not an estimate. If they miss people they are not counted. Now the Census Bureau also makes a seperate estimate of how many people they believe they missed, which cannot be used for Congressional allocation, but is published for statistical purposes. This number will always be higher than the standard Census count. And this is the number that should always be utilized for Eruv purposes.
So once you take the estimated population (above the enumerated count) and add the number of guests and workers in Brooklyn — on the highest day of the year (i.e. possibly on a summer day with many tourists and summer guests), as if I’m not mistaken Rav Moshe says you count on the highest population day of the year.
In 1950 the Census counted in Brooklyn 2.75 million, 1960 2.65 million, 1970 2.6 million. Add to that the under-count. Add to that the workers, tourists, and guests on the highest day of the year. You’re in the 3 million ballpark, if not more.
Also, the real number needed to stop an eruv is human traffic of 600,000 people. That can translate into as little as 2.4 million people in the city, not necessarily 3 million. Igros Moshe OC 4:87 formulates the ratio of inhabitants to traffic as 4:1 or 5:1. This translates to 2,4000,000-3,000,000. In which case you are surely above it in Brooklyn. (Although in Igros Moshe, OC 5:28:5 and 5:29 Rav Moshe says 3,000,000 people.)
Most Rabonim believe that if one does not hold from the eruv, that person should not eat any of the food that is carried in on Shabbos.
I’m going to hijack the thread a bit (if that’s OK, Its getting hot in here as is).
There is a rather “unknown” din from the fifth perek of Beitza that discusses the idea of being “Koneh Shevisa”. This means, that once an object has a “place” for Shabbos or Yom Tov, it retains that place and may not be used outside that place. The concept is brought in the Mishna (37a) for the Din of Techum (2K Amos), and is codified in Shulchan Aruch Simin 397. This has various practical Nafkei Mina, from reading a Sefer that arrives in the mail on Shabbos to having a non-jew push a stroller between bungalow colonies that are more than 2K Amos apart.
IIRC (which I am not sure of), this does not apply to Eruvei Chtzeros.
What this issue here may be is that of being Nehene (gaining benefit) from someone elses Melacha on Shabbos. the SA (318) discusses that the food cooked on shabbos by a jew, even by accident, is not allowed to be eaten by someone else until after shabbos. The MB there brings the Gaon and Tos. that hold that the food may be eaten even by the doer right away, and says that you can be Somech on that in the case of Tzorech.
In general, the Kiddush the “olam” will be at is considered a “tzorech”. As such, it is possible the Halacha would be different than when the food is being brought for an individual.
What is the point of this thread? Is it….
….. If you do not use the Eruv, you are an Am Haaretz and misguided following a psak issued by a renowned posek who was fooled by people with an agenda?
…… If you do use the Eruv you are a mechallel shabbos following a psak issued by a renowned posek who was fooled by people with an agenda?
It is basicly what is being assreted again and again, just dressed differently every time.
truth be told –
“No they do not belong to Rebbes anymore. True. And that was part of this sociological war. Then they can all become lamdonim like you and dispute all the gedolim who built the Torah community in NY.”
“No wonder 18th Ave park, as well as other “nice” locations, appear the way they do on Shabbos. Instead of building yeshivos, we build eiruvin, machlookes and lamdonim like david 1999 who can belittle the people who are responsible for our Yiddishkeit.”
Right. Did you ever go to KGH or Detroit on Shabbos and argue this point. Oh, but Rav Moshe allowed the eruv there. I guess only were you deem it appropriate to build eruvin do you give them a pass. Your argument is specious.
“Reb Moshe, he made “factual” “mistakes”. On and on”
You have nothing to add. Rav Moshe was mislead.
APY, what a great summary 🙂
popa_bar_abb –
“So, tell us how this happened according to you. Rav Moshe issued his first psak based on being tricked. Then, everybody who wanted the eruv responded, bringing 11 halachic arguments which he responded to in the second teshuva.”
“Did anyone suggest he was wrong on the facts? Maybe they didn’t feel like looking into it? Maybe he just stubbornly didn’t care?
Is that what you think?”
“Besides, why don’t you link us the place where he says there are 3 million people living in Brooklyn. Why do you keep asserting it instead of citing it?”
I cited the teshuvah many times (see the end of 4:88).
“By reading it only to argue with him, you do not give kavod.
By asserting that he issued a landmark psak without due regard for the facts, you are mevazeh him.”
The 2.4 million is in the main Igros Moshe published by Rav Moshe during his lifetime. The 3.0 million is only in the controversial 8th cheilek of the Igros, not chosen for publication by Rav Moshe, but rather done posthumously.
I went to boroparkeruv.org and printed out the map.I followed the map and when I reached Greenwood Cemetery it seemed to me to be very interesting.the gate of the cemetery on FT hAMILTON PKY between 37Th ST and McDonald AVE is used for the eruv.we have to thank those dead goyim and their tzalims to permit the Frum Yiden in Boro Park to carry on Shabos.
His Royal Highness –
Fine but Brooklyn in area is greater than twelve mil by twelve mil. Rav Moshe follows the Shulchan Aruch and requires a daily shishim ribo (see 4:88 regarding the beaches). Consequentially, we still fall short of 3 million. (I would also point out, there are other reason to allow our eruvin according to Rav Moshe such as the mechitzos encompassing Brooklyn.)
shmooze1 –
“You do not sound that you live in NYC and specifically in Brooklyn to make such a statement!”
Please elaborate.
Clark Kent –
“The 2.4 million is in the main Igros Moshe published by Rav Moshe during his lifetime. The 3.0 million is only in the controversial 8th cheilek of the Igros, not chosen for publication by Rav Moshe, but rather done posthumously.”
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