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“Mazuz”?! This is how one refers to one of the greatest roshei yeshiva in Eretz Yisrael?!
My guess is that someone the rosh yeshiva trusts told him the story according to the fanatical kahanist narrative. Rav Mazuz stresses that Goldstein was trying to prevent danger to jews.
The kahanist claim os unfounded. Goldstein was a mentally unstable man who snapped and murdered people; some were probably terrorist supporters, although there’s no evidence of that…there were people who just happened to be at maaras hamachpelah minding their own business, killed for being muslims.
If islam ever had an actual martyr, it would be those people; they were senselessly killed just because of their religion and nationality.
Avira, you are a liar and are slandering a tzadik and kadosh who was brutally murdered. Dr Goldstein was not “mentally unstable”, and the Arabs were not “worshipers”, they had a stash of hatchets and knives with which they hacked him to death; that is not what one has at a place of “worship”. They were openly announcing for days that they were going to carry out a massacre, and the army refused to do anything to stop them. The army even warned Dr Goldstein to prepare for multiple casualties. So he did the only thing he could to stop them.
By the way, even according to your sick version how can you say there’s no evidence they were terrorists? Even according to your version, they murdered him after they captured and disarmed him; that is cold-blooded murder, and when Jews have done the same to actual terrorists they have been convicted and imprisoned for it. So that alone makes them terrorists.
And why would the army “warn” Goldstein? He wasn’t in some position that would warrant that. And where is the evidence for any of these claims?
Good to know; he didn’t target would-be combatants, if there even were any there at the tims. He just shot anyone with Muslim attire. It was senseless.
Mill – there’s not a shred kf evidence for any of the kahanist revision of history that you described. Goldstein wasnt “murdered in cold blood” – he was a murderer who was killed by people he was trying to kill. They didn’t kill him because he was jewish, they killed him because he was on a murderous rampage himself.
And if there really was some plot to carry out an attack, when has attacking arabs helped stop it? It just makes them more willing and angry to kill jews. The whole thing is preposterous.
And Jews were killed in revenge for his attack
This thread disgusts me. Switch around the names of the people involved and you could be reading something from Al Jazeera talking about a Hamas murderer R”L.
Nebbuch, a Jewish person lost his mind and committed a horrific senseless act of murder. Please don’t try and paint it as anything else.
Well, it took the Rabbi twenty nine years to come to a conclusion. Just imagine how long it would take Avira to agree with him!
Goldstein was a sick terrorist and as noted above, Mazuz was clearly uninformed when making his baseless comments defending this terrorist.
Dear Good,
It doesn’t matter what was in his mind. He could have killed you and I just as easily.
@Good-to-know “Evidence or not, this is what they believed”. And John Hinckley jr. believed that he will be able to marry his favorite actress if he murders President Reagan. And Saeed Hotari believed that if he would murder Jews waiting in line at the Dolphinarium nightclub, he would be killing people that were causing him pain and all the troubles of everyone he loved will end.
Why do we care what meshuguyim believe when they act on their insanity rather than logic?
Avira, you are a stone cold liar. What do you mean, “He wasn’t in some position that would warrant” the army warning him? Of course he was. He was the community’s doctor! He would have to take care of the casualties, just as he had been taking care of all the casualties of the previous weeks. The army told him to prepare. The Arabs were OPENLY BOASTING that they were about to massacre the Jews. Everyone who was there heard it. And it was being reported all over the world. How can you deny it? And why did they have all those hatchets in the room in the first place, if not to massacre the Jews.
And your claim that “he didn’t target would-be combatants, if there even were any there at the tims. He just shot anyone with Muslim attire” is another FILTHY LIE for which you will have to account one day.
And yes, they murdered him in cold blood. This was established beyond doubt. After he was disarmed, they chopped him to death. That is MURDER. When a Jew shoots a captured terrorist he goes to prison.
As for your idiotic question “And if there really was some plot to carry out an attack, when has attacking arabs helped stop it”, THAT attack was stopped! The attack that literally everyone was expecting that Purim didn’t happen, only because Dr Goldstein HASHEM YIKOM DAMO stopped it. Dozens of Jews lived because of him.
Hashem Yikom Damo applies not only to avenging him against the animals who chopped him up with their hatchets but also against everyone LIKE YOU who continue to spill his blood after his death. How are you not afraid to speak like this?
GHD, let’s start with how you DARE to refer to one of the greatest roshei yeshiva in Eretz Yisrael as “Mazuz”. You have a huge chutzpah. You are a sick terrorist and everything you say against Hashem’s kedoshim you are saying against yourself.
I am posting with an account that I asked the editors to delete. It’s hashgaha that they didn’t. I knew Goldstein rather well and he may have thought of me as a friend. Until he did what he did, my family and I joked about him, calling him “Dr. Kach” for his Kahanist fanaticism. Avira is spot-on. Goldstein snapped a month or so before the mass murder he committed; it was then that two dear friends of his died in his arms after being gunned down by Palestinian terrorists. As for Me’arat Hamachpela, its floor is made of flagstones, each probably as heavy as a person. No weapons can be stashed under them, let alone under thin rungs. No one in Goldstein’s position, as a captain in the IDF medical corps, could have exclusive knowledge of an impending massacre of Jews, to which the army refuses to respond. But someone with hard-core Kahanist views would regard a mass of Palestinian Arabs as targets for slaughter, because in Kahanist thought the seed of Amalek manifests anew in Israel’s enemies of each generation, in this case the Palestinians. And there’s no better time to observe the mitzva of obliterating the memory of Amalek than Purim. Allow me to anticipate another argument: that Goldstein had heard the Arabs chanting “slaughter the Jews” at the Me’ara the previous evening, where he had gone to hear the megillah. No. He heard the megillah in a small shul in Kiryat Arba, sitting with two of his sons about eight feet away from me.
And for Milhouse: the Army told him to prepare because the Army tells its reservists to prepare. By the way, Goldstein was killed when one of the Arabs threw a fire extinguisher at him when his (Goldstein’s) weapon jammed. No hatchets. Probably no weapons of any kind, because the hall where this happened was also used by Jews on a daily basis.
Milhouse,
I am not trying to argue with your reality, I am trying to understand your scenario.
Please lead me through what happened according to you.It sounds like Arabs planned a pogrom and Israel was doing nothing to prevent it . Why?
@Milhouse Again, your comment reminds me of Al Jazeera reporting on a Hamas murder. “Israeli settler invader stopped by courageous freedom fighter”. Same same.
Finally, most people here agreed on something. Interesting to see how alternative reality can be perceived based on some information that the posters had and that is probably impossible to either verify or disproof. I presume many other nations, including anti-semites, get their information in a similar way.
Millhouse: The OP says that, “Mazuz argued [that Goldstein’s actions] prevented a very great danger,” I don’t believe the Rav would make such a statement if he had been fully informed of the facts, as several other posters noted above. Nor are many of us big fans of Kahane’s legacy which obviously is a big factor among those who celebrate the actions of this murderer.
Loyal, thank you for your first hand accounts and for the background information, very informative.
I do disagree with one thing you said though; the idea that amalek manifests in whoever is the jewish people’s enemy is from rav chaim brisker; it’s not meir kahana’s chidush. Of course, extending that to political enemies of the secular state of Israel is not what rav chaim meant – he would consider the zionists amalek, too, for they sought to uproot Torah.
Avira, a quick swing with Google finds many gedolim identifying many enemies of the Jews as Amalek’s seed: the Xians, the Tsar, Kaiser Wilhelm, the Nazis…. Targeting the Palestinians collectively and preaching hands-on violence against them on Amalek’s seed grounds is something I’ve encountered only in Kahanism. As for Rav Chaim Brisker, it would be interesting to see a source in which he identifies Jews as Amalek’s seed and advocates direct violence against them.
Loyal, sorry for the misunderstanding – I never said that a people’s status of amalek means that violence is acceptable. It isn’t. The Gaon held that Germans were from amalek way before the Holocaust, yet never advocated violence. Rav chaim’s idea about amalek is that they’re not limited to the physical descendents of the amalaekim, but rather can be spiritual heirs to them.
But to be clear, no one before meir kahanah rationalized violence against anyone on the basis of their amaleki status.
Avira, Loyal: Don’t we have a mitzvah bzman hazeh to eliminate Amalek?
Of course not
Ujm, it’s a machlokes if it’s on the yachid, or derech milchama, which would be when moshiach comes. Also, the gaon would agree that not every single German is an amaleki; just that the nation as a whole ended up there… It’s after sancheriv mixed up the world’s populations, too.
Muslims prayer mats can also be linked to to logic of hiding something.
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