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Like Daas Yochid alluded to, every moment that this kind of pritzus is up, is a spiritual and physical danger to society. Unless the perpetrator of the ad, whether the property owner or the advertiser, is willing to immediately remove it, we have an obligation to immediately do so. The risks this poses — every single moment it is still up — to both our innocent tinokos shel beis rabban as well as adults who are victimized by this trash site is impossible to underestimate.
I wonder if the posting of this sign is a violation of the hate crime law. Women are a protected group.
Are ???? a protected group?
Out of curiosity, is Tznius a D’Orayso or D’Rabbonan. I am trying to find the source where we learn tznius from.
I didnt see the sign. Of the merchandise available at H & M, less than 10% is suitable to the heimishe market in BP. Last I checked H & M didnt sell seemed stockings or all black dresses that covered the elbows and knees. It is not my place to defend the marketing practices of H & M or VistaMedia the owner of that, and a good percentage of billboards in and around Boro Park. The only point I am making, again and again, is that there appears to be an assumption that H & M is 1)targeting the heimishe community 2) is either stupid or brazen in the imagery it uses to reach that market and that the vandals are being lauded for their vandalism by one or 2. I should not have commented on 1 or 2 because it has sidetracked the entire discussion. Regarding number 3. My sons Rebbe davens by Rav Wolfson. I asked the Rebbe today, to ask Rav Wolfson over shabbos 1)for the appropriate course of action in this situation and 2) if the course of action chosen by these bachurim was appropriate. I will hopefully have an answer sometime on sunday.
I keep seeing what these bochrim did being referred to as a chillul Hashem. I cannot see how anybody can say this. These bochrim got rid of a non-tzniyus picture, and stopped it from causing others to do aveiros. They got rid of something that we all agree should not have been there. Something we all agree Hashem does not want there (or anywhere). They stood up for the honor of Hashem. And they showed that we, as frum jews, will always stand up when Hashem and His Torah are disrespected. That’s the quintessential kiddush Hashem in my book.
For all those screaming “dinah di’malchusa dina”, this only applies when the law of the land does not contradict either the letter or the spirit of our Law. Would anybody suggest that if somebody managed to legally put a massive advertisement of naked woman in the middle of BP (or any jewish community), we would have to just let it hang there? No, we would rip it down at all costs!
However, I would like to point out that I do believe kanoi-type actions should only be taken as a last resort. If it was possible to get this picture taken down in a more polite way (ie, talk to the manager) that is what should have been done.
Can someone please tell me which of the 7 mitzvos bnei noach H&M violated by posting that sign?
If there is no violation, how can we punish them by defacing their property?
I’m not sure why this poster was so terrible. Come on – these women were dressed OK, and they were attractive!! Look, this poster was in BROOKLYN – why not give those who live there a modicum of pleasure and enjoyment to brighten their dreary lives – after all, they live in Brooklyn!!
Thank you popa for noticing the misspelling.
“..Affixed to the billboard is a small glued on sign, “Warning, Do not post pictures of women or else they will be spray painted.””
SJSinNYC:
“Can someone please tell me which of the 7 mitzvos bnei noach H&M violated by posting that sign? If there is no violation, how can we punish them by defacing their property?”
This was not a punishment for a crime. This was the removal of something inappropriate, so that people should not commint an aveira by looking at it.
enlightenedjew:
“I’m not sure why this poster was so terrible. Come on – these women were dressed OK, and they were attractive!!… why not give those who live there a modicum of pleasure and enjoyment to brighten their dreary lives”
‘Cause they’ll burn for it. Judaism 101, my friend.
We do not have the right to vandalize. This is not a Jewish State or even a Jewish City under Jewish rule. So OUR absolute standards of tznius (which vary in many respects among frum Jews),
have little shaychus to the goyim. THEIR standard of tznius, as long as it does not violate common accepted decency (and the wearing of pants and even sleeveless shirts by women, is accepted as modest attire in this country)should not be treated in such a holier than thou manner. Suppose they had a giant ad for a ham sandwich or Red Lobster? Would you think they had the right to black it out? What we hold for ourselves we have no right to expect people who are NOT unzerer to likewise hold for themselves.
It would be wonderful if everyone dressed appropriately to our way of thinking, but that is NOT our call to make. Not in this country. Supposing a Muslim had done this and not those guys.
An ad for a ham sandwich or Red Lobster, even if put up in Kiryas Yoel, doesn’t cause anyone to sin. The trash ad that was B”H removed by our heroes does cause Yidden to sin — simply by inadvertently seeing it before they realized it was there, is itself a sin. A non-Jew it prohibited to cause a Yid to sin.
What Sin is caused be the picture of woman in pants being there??
Which one of the 613 Mitzvos was violated by the picture being there
oomis1105:
“We do not have the right to vandalize.”
No, we do not have the legal right to vandalize. We may, however, have the halachic right to. Then it’s a just a question of what you put more by, the American law or the Torah.
“This is not a Jewish State or even a Jewish City under Jewish rule.”
I don’t care. Something can be illegal, and yet be the right thing to do. We follow the halacha everywhere, anytime, no matter what.
zahavasdad:
For a man to see a woman dressed not tzniyus is most definitely an aveira.
Which Averia?
If seeing a Woman wearing pants is an averira, Most people would be sinning every time they walk the streets.
Seeing that filth — even inadvertently — is an aveira.
Was the model wearing a long sleeve shirt? Was her front fully covered?
zahavasdad: Its a clear and specific halocha in Shulchan Aruch, that a man may not derive pleasure from viewing any part of a woman, even her tiny pinky.
I don’t have the source off hand, if no one else posts it, I’ll try to after Shabbos or on Sunday
People are manufacturing new lavin and piling on aveiros.
To those who keep citing the great and holy mitzva performed by these bachurim, when are they going to smash the idols in front of the catholic church on 17th and 46th? Doesn’t the torah tell us to destry all avoda zara?
While you are at it, you can look up the Halachos of Damaging someone elses property.
zahavasdad: There are different halachas whether the property being damaged/destroyed in a yid or a nochri’s. And in various circumstances (such as this case) it is not only permissible, but it is obligatory, in either case.
apy: If we could do it without being hurt, we most certainly would. But that is a different issue in any event. Inadvertently seeing an avoda zora is not an aveira. Inadvertently seeing this filth that was destroyed, is an aveira. An hence that object of sin must be removed.
I don’t care. Something can be illegal, and yet be the right thing to do. We follow the halacha everywhere, anytime, no matter what.
Good – so after these kids are arrested and convicted, they can request glatt kosher food while they sit in prison.
Since when is a catholic idol considered as an avoda zara? It is not considered as a god in itself.
Grandmaster,
So a goy following his teachings can spray paint a shul?
You are not the only people living in Boro Park, and your standards are not the absolute halacha. If I know you are doing somrtjing that I can find halachic sources to prove it is wrong, I can spray paint your house?
I don’t care. Something can be illegal, and yet be the right thing to do. We follow the halacha everywhere, anytime, no matter what.
Good – so after these kids are arrested and convicted, they can request glatt kosher food while they sit in prison.
I am willing to guarantee here and now that the goyisha authorities will never lay their hands on these Tzadikim. Hashem protects those who protect his Torah.
zahavasdad:
“If seeing a Woman wearing pants is an averira, Most people would be sinning every time they walk the streets.”
Or, of course, they could just not look. But yes, lichatchila one should not walk in a place where he knows there will be inappropriately dressed women if he can avoid it.
apushatayid:
There is nothing wrong with looking at a cross. Therefore, nothing would be accomplished by smashing it.
mamashtakah:
“Good – so after these kids are arrested and convicted, they can request glatt kosher food while they sit in prison.”
Not sure exactly what you’re trying to say here…
lesschumras:
“If I know you are doing somrtjing that I can find halachic sources to prove it is wrong, I can spray paint your house?”
The two simply cannot be compared. First of all, the poster hung up clearly affected all that passed by and saw it; it wasn’t that the bochrim just “knew they were doing something wrong”.
Secondly, the bochrim only spray painted the offending images in order that people should not look at them. Spray painting somebody’s house would be the equivalent of these bochrim spray painting an entire H&M outlet to protest the poster.
So a goy following his teachings can spray paint a shul?
He’d be wrong. There is absolute right and wrong in this world – it’s called the Torah.
If I know you are doing somrtjing that I can find halachic sources to prove it is wrong, I can spray paint your house?
Who’s talking about spray painting anybody’s house? We’re talking about covering an inappropriate picture (which I didn’t see so I don’t have an opinion on this particular case).
To those only concerned with the illegality:
20 years ago, it was illegal to do a Bris Mila in Russia. So what is your point?
<i> Or, of course, they could just not look. But yes, lichatchila one should not walk in a place where he knows there will be inappropriately dressed women if he can avoid it. <i>
Like anywhere in NYC, that isnt Borough Park
Daas Yochid:
“There is absolute right and wrong in this world – it’s called the Torah.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
zahavasdad:
“Like anywhere in NYC, that isnt Borough Park”
Yup.
No, we do not have the legal right to vandalize. We may, however, have the halachic right to. Then it’s a just a question of what you put more by, the American law or the Torah.”
I follow “Dina D’Malchusah Dina” as per Halacha. Our Dina states that it is a CRIME to vandalize, and the Halacha states we have to abide by the rules of the State. No one told those guys to look up at the picture. it was not an untzniusdig picture according to standards set forth by law of the land. You don’t like that – move somewhere that is more to your liking, or somewhere over which your opinions and halachioc observance are allowed to prevail. Until then, you have to live where you are, and that might include the goyim who live around you, who by the laws of this land (a land which gives us ALL freedom of religion)are allowed to post pictures that are not obscene (and they are NOT, even if they are of a different tznius standard than your own)and have a reasonable expectation that no one will damage their property.
“I follow “Dina D’Malchusah Dina” as per Halacha.”
Again, I don’t believe that DDMD applies to a law going against the Torah. As PBA pointed out, would you say that DDMD would make it halachicly prohibited to do a bris milah?
“it was not an untzniusdig picture according to standards set forth by law of the land”
Again, I do not care about the standards of the land. I care only about the standards of the Torah.
“by the laws of this land… are allowed to post pictures that are not obscene (and they are NOT, even if they are of a different tznius standard than your own)”
Wrong. If the Torah says something is obscene, it is obscene. Period. Nothing to talk about.
If anybody has “different standards”, they are simply wrong.
I am so curious who is the rav who told this young men that a) they are exempt from the New York Penal Law provisions against Criminal Mischief and b) they should do what they did.
Better yet, does anyone here know of any recognized poskim who approve of the action taken?
Does anyone here know of any recognized poskim who disapprove of the action taken?
zahavasdad, oomis1105 and any other women, girls or females commenting here:
I don’t think it’s fair to judge or comment on male issues until you become one. Their bodies, indeed entire being, is of different makeup. Looking / gazing at sights affects them entirely differently then the opposite side of the mechitza (hence the need of a mechitza). There’s a special mitzva for them in the Torah, V’lo sasuru”, he gave them the nisayon, he gave them the mitzvah. Females do not have, and cannot understand this ta’ava.
Zees: I agree with you 100%. We will never understand what a male feels like when seeing inappropiate pictures. I heard that to them it’s like they’ve starved for three days and they smell treif food.
Zeeskite,
I agree with you 66.6667% (because zahavasdad is a man. 🙂
mw13
Wrong. If the Torah says something is obscene, it is obscene. Period. Nothing to talk about.
If anybody has “different standards”, they are simply wrong.
Daas Yochid:
“There is absolute right and wrong in this world – it’s called the Torah
This is the point that Grandmaster,Daas Yochid and mw13 keep repeating but don’t respond to. There is no one absolute truth in Torah. Take any subject in the Gemara and point out one issue where there were no minority opinions. The Ritvah and Rambam, Bais Hillel and Bais Shammai, the Vilna Gaon and any Chassidic posek, I could go on on, they diagreed with each other on almost everything. You are assuming that your view supercedes that of all other poskim that you disagrre with.
I’ll reask another question. If a woman were to be standing at the same street corner that the Ad was placed wearing a tam top and shorts, would these same bochrim be justified in your view, in assaulting or spray painting her?
One would need a heter to Do something as opposed to do nothing.
It is not an averieh to think about eating treif, its only an averieh if you actually eat trief
Sorry for not introducing myself: (??? ??????)
I’m the kind of ?????, when I go through metal detectors by security check, they always ask me to kindly remove my head. Why??
Walking / driving / taking the Subway in NYC you see all kinds of billboards and signs
Men / Women / Animals / Religious / Political etc.
No billboard turns me into a frankenstein or some sort of monster. If I see a billboard I just ignore it. Not only do I ignore it, Ask me 2 mins later what the billboard was about, i wouldnt remember. I could even pass the same billboard everyday and would have no idea what the billboard was.
Mw13, let me help you: you ask the question to a rav or posek before you do something, not afterwards.
zahavasdad: Not EVERY man is on your lofty madreiga. Apparently you would have been permitted to use the ??? that for others would be considered being a ??? for using it. (?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???)
There is this famous story of the Holy Chafetz Chaim, who was sitting at home (or maybe it was in someone else’s home. There was some girl coming in and out, going by constantly in their proximity. After a while the Chofetz Chaim got angry and said aloud (or screamed) “Enough! What does she think we are?! Malachim?!” – We’re talking of the HOLY Heilege Chafetz Chaim, (dibuk testified he had the Gadlus of a Tana!), we’re also talking about a perfectly dressed girl.
Folks, do the math yourself. zahavasdad- do you hold yourself at a higher plane than the Chofetz Chaim. Welcome to the realm of Malachim!
Perhaps you should try it, Its alot easier than you think to ignore stuff you see around the city.
You see one billboard you’ve seen them all and they all look the same just a blur
Perhaps you should try it
Are you nuts? You are encouraging people to look at this dirty filth?
you ask the question to a rav or posek before you do something, not afterwards.
You have any reason to believe the holy bochorim didn’t? I am confident they have. You too should be dan lkaf zchus. Especially considering the favor they did for everyone passing that street.
Shticky. MW. This is not the proper forum for catholic dogma. The idols of mary are most definitely avoda zara. ever hear the term “hail mary”?
As for the bachurim. I find it interesting mw and joseph are suddenly asking “who disaprroved” when they are usually the ones arguing in favor of every chumra arguing who mattired.
In My Opinion, what the bochurim did is extremely commendable.
We are living in a dor comparable with the dor hamabul. we should do whatever we can to stop immorality!
As for other methods suggested such as contacting the company. In my opinion, that is totally ridiculous!
Until that happens, many people are having bad machshovos, not to
mention other averios!
Hurray for the bachurim; your Gan Eden is enviable!
I thank G-D that I & my immediate family have not led sheltered lives, & can practice tolerance.
I think what the bochurim did was unquestionably illegal & I’m sure there was another way to handle this ‘problem’.
Take any subject in the Gemara and point out one issue where there were no minority opinions.
I’ll do you one better, and I’ll list two.
1) You’re not allowed to eat chazir. Which “minority opinion” disagrees?
2) You’re not allowed to light a fire on Shabbos. Which “minority opinion” disagrees?
I could probably think of a few more if I tried hard enough.
If H&M did not break any of their prohibitions, why would Torah allow a Jew to vandalize their property? We can’t expect non-Jews to live by OUR ideals.
I don’t follow this logic.
Men who can’t walk in the street without a problem should not be on the street. That billboard is not the most offensive thing on the streets.
We can’t expect non-Jews to live by OUR ideals.
We CAN expect them not to offend our sensibilities in our neighborhoods. Yes, I know, we don’t own the neighborhood, but it’s downright obnoxious to put up such signs in a neighborhood with a high concentration of religious Jews.
They deserve absolutely no sympathy.
And let’s face it, they know it’s immoral as well. Only a few years ago, these types of signs were unacceptable even for non-Jews. The unfortunate decay in societal morals does not change the intrinsic immorality.
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