Bochrim Spray-Paint Over �Not Tzniyus� Advertisement

GAW,

Living in a free country doesn’t mean they have the right to deface property of others. Imagine if someone tampered with your mezuzah!

The tarp is a better idea than the defacement, but there are better ways to go about removing the sign without causing such a chillul hashem.

There is a tzniut sign in Kiryat Joel that many people do not like.

What if someone from nearby went over to that sign (The Sign is on private property) and defaced it.

Would you be in favor of this??

Halachicly gezel akum is not the aveira of gezeila, and one does not have to repay for gezel akum.

Let’s bring this case specificly. If the Bochrim in question were arrested & thrown in jail for vandalism, would they still feel they did the right thing?

Absolutely. They would then catapult into Jewish Heroes who were moser nefesh for the Torah. They ought to proudly and prominently wear a big yarmulka and black hat as they are led into the police precinct (and court if necessary) joyfully singing “Moshe Emes V’Torahsai Emes”, lhavidl like politicians and activists arrested at political protests smilingly pose for the cameras with their handcuffs after being arrested for civil disobedience. Then Klal Yisroel will lovingly initiate a massive Pidyon Shvuyim campaign to defend our heroes.

Would YOU give your Maaser Money for this “Pidyon Shivum”?

Not in a million years.

You’d better give triple…..

And you’d better pay to fix the damage for the vandalism as well

If they ever got arrested, besides any other punishment (jail, Community Service, Probation etc) they would be forced to pay restitution as well

And that can be garnished from wages, removed from Bank Accounts etc

“wear a big yarmulka and black hat as they are led into the police precinct (and court if necessary) joyfully singing “Moshe Emes V’Torahsai Emes”,

And if they need to spend a day or two in Rikers? Oh, will they sing!

Bochurim – Don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time. And forget askonim; even if they take an interest in your case (which will depend on who you are), even 10 minutes in the pen can be a lifechanger.

Stick to the seforim, and let the consumers fight the billboard battles

This was a big Chillul Hashem IMO, and these boys could be prosecuted potentially for malicious mischief and defacing property. Moreover, they are on camera! No deniability. We do not live in a country where one gets to pick and choose which civil laws to follow without repercussions. They had to be looking up PRETTY high to see this ad, and it was not like the women pictured were wearing undergarments (and even if they HAD been, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about expressing your feelings). Don’t shop in H and M and let them know why, and they will soon get the message.

there was a far worse situation going on along Rockaway Boulevard parallel to JFK. A “Gentlemen’s Club” (whose clientelle were anything BUT gentlemen) had three separate HUGE posters of a woman barely wearing anything, posted so that it was unavoidable to see them. A civic minded group comprised of frum Jews and the locals who were not Jewish but were outraged,successfully got this place closed down on legal grounds, and the pictures were then blacked out. It took a while, but the aqueaky wheel does eventually get greased.

There is no question even in the non-Jewish mind, that pictures of barely dressed women should not be visible in a public place where children pass by. But NOT all people agree that pictures of women wearing slacks or short-sleeved shirts are untzniusdig. And in that case, keep your eyes away from the pictures of things that you can potentially see on any street in NY at any time.

You have the right NOT to expect to see bikini-clad women in giant size posters, especially as it is a traffic hazard. But the pants are another issue entirely. I personally do not wear that type of attire nor do my daughters, but it is reasonable (and considered to be modest)attire for the non-Jewish velt, and HELLO – we live in a non-Jewish velt, whether we like it or not, and have their standards with which to contend. The people involved in this event erred IMO, in their kana-us (I give them the kaf zechus, here, because they might just have been out and out vandals). In any case, they were wrong, especially as the best way to effect a change is to hit someone in the wallet.

i dont know about how much schar they will or wont get but i do know they make a big chillul hashem!

Grandmaster,

So if you have a Toyota, and i don’t like Japanese cars, I can spray paint it. If I don’t like your radical view of Yiddishkeit, I can spray paint your house. Try explaining to a judge about gezel akum.

Anywhere in the article about these bachurim, is there a quote that their rebbe or rav holds otherwise? Any claim that they didn’t ask for guidance from a rebbe or rav? Has anyone seen or heard even a single authoritative claim that their rebbe or rav has stated their actions were anything but appropriate?

So you can’t make the assumption that their rav is okay with it, just as your disputants cannot make the claim that their rav disapproved.

And my point was? Exactly that. I was being rhetorical.

That being said, as Jews (even putting aside all the logical reasons demonstrating these tzadikim were correct in their actions) we have an obligation of being dan lkaf zchus. So if we don’t know otherwise, we ought to presume they did so with the haskama of their rav.

“They followed Torah law (which takes precedence over dina dmalchusa)”

There is no commandment in the Torah to deface anothers’ property. In fact, it is asur.

I don’t know about this case in particular, but I do know of another instance where they contacted the owner and were laughed at. They went to politicians who shrugged, saying they can’t do anything. Only then did they take matters into their own hands.

If someone would put up a sign that hypnotizes all passers-by and convinces them to smoke, would you say, just look the other way or don’t buy from them? That is exactly what this is: it is a sign that does damage, not a message that you don’t agree with.

If in fact the sole issue was that it had an image of a woman, and it was not overblown, in your face, or provocative, then I would have to agree and condemn it.

“It is like when Avrohom Avinu smashed Terach’s avoda zora. Should Avrohom have paid Terach for the damage?

Do you know that he didn’t?

We can easily settle what their rebbe or rav thinks. If anyone recognizes any of the bachurim in the photo(s) (I didn’t read the story or see any pictures), and knows the name of his rebbe or rav, please let me know the name of the rav and I will call him and ask if he thinks their actions appropriate. No speculation necessary.

A better example: Directly outside of a Judaica store in Manhattan at a bus shelter was a very large ad put up by missionaries targeting Jews. Should it have been defaced?

There are many. One that comes to mind is Lifnei eever lo siten michshol.

I don’t know what the picture was, but oomis inadvertantly brought up a good point; that sign along Rockaway Boulevard took several months until it came down, despite the owners being contacted and lots of political pressure.

Bottome line? If you want something done, do it yourself.

So is it OK for people to deface the “Tzniut” Sign in Kiryat Joel that many locals did not Like

It has been VERY unpopular with people in the surrounding communities

“I do not think there is even damage to H&M, rather, these bochurim probably did them a big favor.”

Not if the target audience is the Public School foot traffic in the area.

Not sure what, if any, advertising or marketing experience or training you might have, but simply putting a name, and product sold, does not cut it in the world of advertising. Just look at the ads you see flashing on the sides or top of the YWN page. Read the ads in mishpacha, ami or hamodia magazine (or ANY heimishe publication for that matter that carriers advertisements). Imagery goes a long way. The imagery created by this particular ad, may not be appropriate for the heimishe community in BP but is quite appropriate for the public school audience HM and/or Vista Media might be trying to reach. You can google both companies. You can get the contact info for the publicist of each company and let them know how you feel. Spray painting the advertisement will likely make them dig in their heels and put up a new ad thus defeating the purpose of the real message the community wants to convey.

If HM really believed the billboard served a purpose in the area, they would simply place it in a higher location. Will it become a game of cat and mouse? Haha, I can climb higher than any billboard you will place? If HM decides it isnt worth their while, then what, start the whole thing again with Gap? Banana Republic? Another product that has imagery that is offensive? At best, the bachurim have a short term solution to a long term problem. And no, the means do not justify the ends, ever.

No, this is not avoda zara in E”Y where the torah commands bnei yisroel to remove them. This is secular united states, yes, even 16th Ave and 43rd is part of secular america. What do the Rabbonim in the immediate area have to say? The RY of Shaarei Yosher? Rav Wolfson?

Zahavasdad,

Where is the tznius sign in KJ? IN KJ. Do you see why it is impossible to compare the two? They did not put the sign in Woodbury to offend people. The bochurim did not go to the Village to spray the sign.

“..Affixed to the billboard is a small glued on sign, “Warning, Do not post pictures of women of else they will be spray painted.””

I wonder if the posting of this sign is a violation of the hate crime law. Women are a protected group.