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Like I said, this question i silly. The same thing can be asked about every chok in the Torah. What about a mamzer? How is it “fair” that a mamzer cannot marry a Yisroel? The answer is the same concept. It would be considered a “blemish” for klal yisroel to accept something that is not appealing to the average person, because most people cannot help but look at the product of such a union with a certain lack of respect, just like someone who is ugly or someone missing an arm. This is not an ideal, but is the way unfortunately most people are.
How can we say Kohanim today are not “real” kohanim? If that were really so, why would they still be unable to marry a gerusha? Even if the (alleged) kohein were the last man on the planet, it would still be assur for him to marry a divorcee, and any children would be challalim. Or am I wrong in my assumption of facts not in evidence? We cannot have it both ways. Either they are or they are not. (I’m a bas Kohein, so I have a vested interest in this…)
How can we say Kohanim today are not “real” kohanim? If that were really so, why would they still be unable to marry a gerusha?
What he was trying to say is that today’s kohanim are safek kohen, not hadst kohen. Even were it a safek, a kohen would be forbidden to marry a gerushah.
Daas Yochid, again you’re imposing your Chumros on others!?
DaasYochid: Thank you, that is correct.
oomis: Sorry, but that is the reality. In fact, we do have it both ways. We indeed often allow for room in difficult situations because of this: Both in cases when it is difficult for a Jew who does not claim to be a Kohen and for a Jew who does claim to be a Kohen.
This is not thread for this topic though.
I do not think thegra is correct l’halachah, but at least he wasn’t logically inconsistent.
Ha ok, thank you anyway for your ability to see my rational consistency.
I do wonder why oomis, being the daughter of a Jew who claims to be a Kohen, would have a “vested interest in this”. Being that she has no marriage restrictions as a bas kohen, why would she look at it any less objectively than any other Jew.
Why would she want her family’s special status questioned?
“Why would she want her family’s special status questioned?”
Oh, yes just as Shaul didn’t.
Now I understand.
Yes, what motive would she have…..
I don’t think I am allowed to say.
“Why would she want her family’s special status questioned?”
But for someone to claim that they are inherently superior to their neighbors and more close to G-d when it is not true is perfectly fine?
Why would anyone overlook a fact or leave out something that would pasul them as a kohen? Most people could care less if they are a kohen or not.
I don’t understand why anyone is questioning Oomis’ motive in defending her family’s lineage. She is correct in being proud of it.
Letschmooze
Most Kohanim especially those into their yiddishkiet are proud to be Kohanim. Maybe you know the wrong Kohanim.
WIY: I think defending is one thing but the point thegra was saying that there is a difference between being proud of something you earned and something that was not earned and all the more so about something that very likely is not even true.
I said abot the kohanim/not caring because I thought some poskim held that you can believe people about it because they have nothing to gain, but maybe they have something to gain after all…..
I do wonder why oomis, being the daughter of a Jew who claims to be a Kohen, would have a “vested interest in this”. Being that she has no marriage restrictions as a bas kohen, why would she look at it any less objectively than any other Jew”
Thegra, that is such an abrasive and confrontational first sentence. Did you really mean to sound that way?
I am talking strictly from the point of view that as a bas Kohein, I am nogaya b’inyan regarding halachos pertaining to my (dead) father and my brothers and their male children. BTW b’nos kohanim DO have certain halachos amd chiyuvim pertaining to themselves, especially as relate to tzniusdig behavior, and as I pointed out previously a B”K who has been married cannot have her brothers present at her levaya, though a Kohein may go to his parents’ and brothers'(who are kohanim)levayos, if they predecease him.
“But for someone to claim that they are inherently superior to their neighbors and more close to G-d when it is not true is perfectly fine?”
Excuse me – but did I do that at ANY time????????
My ancestor actually started one of the oldest and most respected yeshivos in Brooklyn (for that matter in the entire country). I am proud of that yichus. We should all be proud of yichus, just don’t loose track of reality along the way…..
there is a difference between being proud of something you earned and something that was not earned
I don’t know if “proud” is a perfectly accurate term, but it’s like being proud of being Jewish, which, aside from geirim, is not earned.
I think a more accurate parallel is being proud of a specific yichus that rov people cannot lay claim to than being Jewish (the later being open to all).
Nevertheless, my argument was a halachic one.
oomis: I did not mean to hurt your feelings h”v. You seem like a very good person and I am sure you are. I was referring to other sentiments I have picked up here and there. I was really replying to DaasYochid more than you. Rav Moshe was matir many kohanim to go to a bais kevuros based on what I have said btw.
All the best.
oomis: Also, you missed the punchline of the joke. It goes, “my father was a Kohen, my grandfather was a kohen, I want to be one too!” Then the Rabbi says, “well, in that case, maybe for $100,000 we could make it happen.”
I didn’t read all the responses so maybe someone else mentioned it but think about it this way…
Imagine you come to this magnificent palace, you go through a beautiful garden, walk passed the fountains through the golden arch into the royal palace. You walk on the marble floor to get closer to the kings chambers and then you see the 2 guards at the door protecting the king and one of them is limping.
Wouldn’t you think that this king could have done better job when hiring guards?
We as humans judge everything we see according to our standards. Hashem wants to make sure that when we bring our sacrifice to a Kohen, who is a representative of Hashem, we shouldn’t think negatively about him or about Hashem he is serving.
Thegra: Rav Moshe was Mattir Kohanim to go to cemeteries? Can you source that or explain precise situations? Because as you said it it cannot be. In fact, that is such a ridiculous claim that I’m actually considering having someone I know ask R’ Dovid tomorrow just to disprove it.
2qwerty: I really like the way you put it down.
Thanks.
2qwerty: That is a good analogy.
Sam2: “In fact, that is such a ridiculous claim” Of course there are sources. Good for you. Try to disprove it ask whoever you want but leave me out of it. I don’t want to get drawn into a long 5 week debate with you in this thread. I have read too many of your other posts. So kol tov and good bye.
Sam2: Of course there are sources. He was not mattir it stam but in many situations he was mattir it. It was not a blanket hetter of course. Now, I have read many of your other posts. You are the type of poster that will simply never stop no matter what the other person says or what sources you are shown. I do not have the energy or time to get into a long debate with you here. So I will not be responding to you anymore (at least I hope not). as it will do no good. Kol tov
Well that was offensive. If you show me a source and it says what you say it says, that’s fine. I don’t argue for the sake of arguing. If you can prove me wrong, by all means. If you don’t want to debate it, then ask me not to reply. That’s your prerogative. But at least show your source.
It was offensive (and undeserved, IMO).
It was also a cop out.
So thegra walks in to NASA and says “There’s life on other planets, I went to one and it was inhabited by pink elephants with four trunks, six legs and thirty-nine brains who have built a civilization based on roller-coasters.” And NASA turn around and say “That claim sounds a bit farfetched, can you show us some evidence?” To which thegra says “Of course there’s evidence!”. NASA ask him to produce said evidence and thegra says “Try to disprove it ask whoever you want but leave me out of it. I don’t want to get drawn into a long 5 week debate with you. You are the type of organisation that will simply never stop no matter what the other person says or what sources you are shown. I do not have the energy or time to get into a long debate with you here. So kol tov and good bye.”
Hardly credible is it? So why should it be any different when thegra wants us to take the claim that R’ Moshe was mattir issurim d’oraysa seriously without providing evidence?
What an accusation, and to the wrong person. Sam2 always discusses issues logically and straightforward, which makes discussions with him very enjoyable. He was this way from his very first post. When he joined, and rejoined, it was a real breath of fresh air.
oomis: Also, you missed the punchline of the joke. It goes, “my father was a Kohen, my grandfather was a kohen, I want to be one too!” Then the Rabbi says, “well, in that case, maybe for $100,000 we could make it happen.”
Thank you, I HAD forgotten to add that, and it IS a great line!
I don’t think adding that Rabbi’s repsonse makes the joke any funnier.
HaleiVi:
Obviously you haven’t earned you masters in Jokeology yet.
Do you need a source for the fact that adding a comment after the punch-line doesn’t help out?
oomis: ha yes that makes the joke funnier.
HaLeivi: I think it did help it out actually.
Sam2: Looks like you have a bunch of different screen names. Anyway, you said, “that is such a ridiculous claim”
I thought that was offensive and rude, which is why I responded that way. Nevertheless, what I said doesn’t change.
No cop outs, I always have sources to what I say.
You think Sam2 has multiple screen names? brb roflmko
Sam2: Looks like you have a bunch of different screen names. Anyway, you said, “that is such a ridiculous claim”
What on earth? Sam2 (apparently you don’t read much of his posts, or you wouldn’t have asked about his gender) is a Talmud Chochom who has both a bekiyus in many rishonim and achronim but also has a very good koach hasboro as well as a sense of humour. Quite the perfect poster on the CR.
NOT the sort of fellow who has a “bunch of different screen names”, nor the sort of fellow who accuses people for absolutely no reason whatsoever of having a “bunch of different screen names” because they argued with you.
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