Blaming the Same Gender Unions: A Personal Rant

GAW – I’m upset at Ben Levi’s defense of certain people above. There is no defense to make those decisions without the backing of one of the main Bais Dins here!

There is no defense. The REAL “Rosh Yeshiva” of Lakewood Inc., Rav Aaron Kotler Shlita, in on record saying that he was mechuyav to back Corzine for his past support (AKA GELT). His brother then had to go to Rav Shteinman to get an “Ishur”, which we have to assume was given without all of the facts on the table (as it was retracted soon after).

None of this is in dispute, no matter what posters have to say on the matter.

Rav Kotler never supported Corzine. That is an absolute undisputed fact. In fact, as a charitable institution BMG is legally unable to support a candidate. And, personally, Rav Kotler supported Christie.

benig: Dave Hirsch is not anonymous. He has contributed articles to the main site of YWN with his contact info. Search the archives.

FOR THE RECORD: (Your dead wrong):

Rav Shteinman Says To Vote As The ‘Lakewood Vaad’ Says

After Corzine Loss, Aron Kotler Tries Mending Fences In Trenton

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=41511

Mods, thanks for the support. Argumentum ad nauseam is a standard Joe tactic (and one of the reasons why he is unable to have a civilized discussion).

TLKY,

I stand corrected on Dave Hirsch. He is not anonymous, but I still can’t find the Midrash he cited. Maybe I will send him an email asking for the source.

I don’t know if the “you’re dead wrong” links are referring to me or not. I never discussed voting. I have no problem with only voting for candidates that don’t support these “marriages.” My issue is only with public protests.

HaKatan,

We are talking about protests to protect goyim’s ruchnius, not physically intervening to protect people who are in danger.

JM -“I have, in no way, ignored chazal. Still waiting to see that a yid gets punished for a goy’s actions.”

While off-hand, I don’t think that anyone would be punished for s/o else’s actions -that isn’t the case over here. Over here we were talking about being punished for Not protesting -ie keeping quiet. This I have a Rayah from Iyuv. He was punished for keeping quiet about Pharoh’s idea about enslaving the Jews. Kal V’chomer a Jew would be punished for this.

“And if that is the case, still awaiting proof that our role as Frum yidden is to try to protest and educate the goy. If anything, I’d think such actions of the goyim should awaken us to do more mitzvos, work on our avodas Hashem, as we might need many more zechusim than usual”

IMHO, your statement is too general to say one way or another. It would depend on what they were doing.

But even if talking in general -the Lubavitch Rebbe zt’l held you should. He started this 7 Mitzvos project to do just that.

JayMatt, it’s nice to debate, but when you make definitive statements then that’s beyond debating in Yeshiva. But I wouldn’t want to tell anyone what to do.

1. There a variety of shitos in the mefarshim about Lot, but, as I wrote, the Torah is pretty clear that it was due to Avraham that Lot was saved and it is at least as clear that Lot was not a Sodomite other than place of residence. Thus, the fact that he required intervention to be saved is a clear indication that, very simply speaking, one shouldn’t be in the wrong place at the wrong time, as discussed above.

2. I don’t agree with your implications here. It happens that some of his descendants were forbidden to join, but that was only because of what they did (“al divar asher lo kidmu eschem…”).

But another of his descendants is the most famous convert in Jewish History and the matriarch of Dovid HaMelech and ultimately Melech HaMashiach, may Hashem send him soon to redeem us all BB”A.

In fact, I’ve heard that the reason Lot’s daughter named her son Moav is liSheim Shamayim: so that nobody should claim instead that her son was born in a “virgin birth” and therefore be michalel shem shamayim, etc. as happened with a different child some centuries later when some people made this exact claim (which was actually a common pagan belief) about a certain boy in Natzeres.

I already did share it.

I quoted the Lekach Tov earlier, and here is the quote from that post:

“If you look at the Lekach Tov, by “Pen Tisafu bichal chatosam” in Korach 16:26, he says explicitly that even those who did not sin had to separate themselves because “Kivan shenitan rishus…””

JayMatt:

The Lekach Tov explicitly states they did not sin. I am inclined to believe the Lekach Tov, not your assertion to the contrary (though there may have been SOME in Klal Yisrael who did adopt the position you mentioned, according to other mefarshim).

Again, as I posted a while ago and again on Friday, he says they DID NOT sin. That means there was no aveira. Yet, he says, Kivan sheNitan DID apply.

The source of this chazal seems to be Bava Kamma 60a, which talks about Mitzrayim and Makas Bichoros, and that was non-Jew to Jew.

So now we have mikoros for both Jew to Jew AND Non-Jew to Jew.

Yet you stated rhetorically in your OP “Why should yidden lose so much during hurricanes Sandy and Irene?” and continue to defend that despite “Kivan SheNitan”.

Are you now going to say they were not yet technically Jews in Mitzrayim so they count as non-Jews, instead? “Kivan sheNitan” actually means, according to the gemara, that the tzaddikim are affected first. So this means that non-Jewish Tzaddikim are affected first? Not likely…

Even if that were so, we would still have mikoros for both Jew to Jew AND Non-Jew to Non-Jew.

But, regardless, why would there be any difference?

I think the burden of proof is on you to show that this Chazal is not a plausible source for Sandy’s destruction, unlike your OP.

JM -“@Hakatan

1. That gemarra is the one that Health was referring to when he said “It isn’t so pashut”

So that has already been answered.”

First of all, there is no Machlokes in the Gemorah in BK -so obviously Chazal held the Maskana is “Kivan SheNitan”.

Second of all, if you are going to learn like the Malbim that R’ Yonasun holds of “Mavchin” then you have to hold of what the Malbim says before. On page 200 (#49), the Malbim says in this paragraph about the Machlokes R’ Yonasun & R’ Yoshea at the end -“And it’s explained -that this miracle will only occur now during the destruction of Egypt, not after this time.”

So even acc. to R’ Yonasun this was a one time deal and forever on we just apply the rule of “Kivan SheNitan”. This is Pashut Pshat in the Malbim.

The Pashtus of all the Gemorahs and Midrashim, esp. because they brought two Pisukim from Nach, is that this Din of

“Kivan SheNitan” was always a rule. The question was if this rule was applied during Macos Bechoros or not.

“2. The Iyun Yaakiv there says that the tzaddikim aren’t punished for the same REASON as the reshaim, just at the same time. The tzaddikim have some minor flaw for which it is considered a chessed for them to be punished in this world, in order to be considered clean in the next world. This punishment is at the same time.”

Ok, so what? It’s Not a coincidence that the Tzaddikim are getting punished now -it’s because of “Kivan SheNitan”. You’d only have a proof if there is anyone alive nowadays that has never sinned -then you can say it’s not possible to apply “Kivan SheNitan” over here by the storm acc. to the Ayin Yaacov.

“3. In regards to my opening post, even if you apply Kivan (which isn’t as simple as you make it), why justify a disaster with a non-applicable reason, limiting the mussar, when one can try to look in the mirror and improve themselves? (Which is what this initial topic was all about)”

It looked the most applicable because it occured pretty much in the same time frame as when they passed this Toeiva law. Again your insinuation that anyone ever meant this is the only reason is absurd. They mentioned this reason because of the proximity of passing of the law, but of course e/o should work on every Chessoron that they have. Noone is pointing to Toeiva and saying that’s it, nothing more to work on!

JM:

Although Health addressed all three points already, I just want to address your point #3.

The bottom line is that Chazal told us “Kivan sheNitan…” and, as Health said, it seems most applicable to Sandy. So your OP denying that, and especially your persistent denials of this Chazal, as well-intentioned as you may be in trying to not “limit the mussar”, is offensive and incorrect due to your invalidating a Chazal, CH”V.

As Health said, and this is what bothered me most about your OP, is that you can’t decide to ignore a Chazal just because you want to “learn mussar” from something. The mussar is de facto limited if the destruction was due to other factors, despite your emotional wishes to the contrary.

One can still look to improve themselves, regardless of the particular reason for Sandy. But one can’t deny a ChaZa”L, CH”V, even to not “limit the mussar”.

JayMatt:

(This is not relevant to your OP, but I did not say that Jews could be CH”V punished, without cause, though the Lekach Tov did seem to indicate this when he seemed to imply that tzaddikim would have been swallowed up in the ground had they not separated from Korach’s midst because of kivan sheNitan.)

Again, you insisted all along that Kivan sheNitan did not apply to Sandy.

But even according to your interpretation, Kivan sheNitan does, indeed, apply to Sandy, unlike your OP which was concerned with other matters and unlike all your following posts, up until this most recent one, in which you refused to consider this fact. I suppose your most recent post is as close to a retraction as can be expected.

You’re welcome, and all the best.

JayMatt:

Let’s get some facts out before we continue to get nowhere fast.

1. NY Non-Jews have recently made enormous strides in “normalizing” and legislating mishkav zachar marriage.

2. Sandy hit NY hard.

3. Sandy hit NY Jews hard.

I don’t know why you can’t find it, but there are 2 Lekach Tov pieces of interest here.

The Lekach Tov in Korach on 16:26 says on “Suru na…” Oy laRasha viOy LiShicheino. And on the same passuk in “Pen Tisafu…” he says “why even though they did not sin…miKan sheNitna Rishus LaMashchis liChabeil”.

So you can’t disagree with the application without disagreeing with Chazal. Whether or not anyone else affected had his own aveiros, though the lekach tov does not discuss it, is anyways irrelevant. Whatever the reason for this chazal may be, the bottom line is that once he has permission to go then he can also strike others, CH”V and therefore your OP and further denials to this effect are incorrect and against Chazal. I was hoping you would retract at least that…

The problem with this Shtus argument equating Hurricane Sandy= Gay Marriage is your disgracing the torah.

Minnesota was the first state to allow Gay Marriage in the 70’s, and I didn’t see anything happen to it? Massachusetts who was the most recent state to legalize gay marriage did not get the full brunt of the storm.

Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, etc all allow same sex marriages (since the 1980’s!), and again, don’t see anything happening to them!

So you all can quote chazal, medroshim and all of the sources, but all you are doing is providing a forum where people can start questioning hashem and how fickle chazal is since no other state or country was badly damaged.

Leave the reasons to god and just give Tzedaka to people who were affected!

Oh, by the way, the first Jews were at Matttan Torah, so the argument that Medos Hadin can impact Jews when there is din by goyim is not accurate.

anon1m0us -“The problem with this Shtus argument equating Hurricane Sandy= Gay Marriage is your disgracing the torah.”

The only thing disgracing the Torah is your post!

“Minnesota was the first state to allow Gay Marriage in the 70’s, and I didn’t see anything happen to it? Massachusetts who was the most recent state to legalize gay marriage did not get the full brunt of the storm.

Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, etc all allow same sex marriages (since the 1980’s!), and again, don’t see anything happening to them!

So you all can quote chazal, medroshim and all of the sources, but all you are doing is providing a forum where people can start questioning hashem and how fickle chazal is since no other state or country was badly damaged.”

Your post has zero logic. Since when does Hashem punish the second s/o does an Aveira? Maybe a State as big as NY has more of an effect on humans – than all these other little States and countries that have this law? So maybe NY’s law is a bigger Potch in Ponim – necessating punishment?

“Leave the reasons to god and just give Tzedaka to people who were affected!”

This negates the whole Torah and makes it into a storybook. The Torah is full of Stories of Hashem destroying the wicked. Why? Why does he tell us the reasons?

Let Hashem say don’t worry about anything -just give charity.

“Oh, by the way, the first Jews were at Matttan Torah, so the argument that Medos Hadin can impact Jews when there is din by goyim is not accurate.”

What you don’t understand is this “Mavchin Bein Tzaddik L’rosha” is the rule. It doesn’t make a difference which nation(s) the Tzaddik belongs to or the Rosha. Don’t read into the Chazal something that it doesn’t say!

Health: “Don’t read into the Chazal something that it doesn’t say!”

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU PEOPLE ARE DOING!!!!

By the way, g-d is bringing this massive snow storm tonight and tomorrow where where the Capital of NY will be hit with up to 2 feet of snow bringing the whole area to a stand still because of the way you spoke to me! Bain Adam Lechavaro is VERY important to Hashem. The Dor Hamabil was destroyed because of that. Now look what you have done! How many innocent people won’t be able to go to work and lose millions of dollars that could have gone to Tzedaka and helping yungerman learn in kollel.

YOU WERE WARNED AND NOW REAP YOUR PUNISHMENT.