Blaming the Same Gender Unions: A Personal Rant

JayMatt, I don’t understand why, CH”V, you refuse to believe in that Chazal (ironic, since you just quoted from the maaseh of Vayaaminu BaHashem uViMoshe avdo”.

Health correctly referred to the Chazal that there are times, that once Hashem had allowed the mashchis to go forth, that his destruction was, to some extent, indiscriminate. (I also mentioned earlier regarding oy laRasha which Chazal also have much to talk about. Do you not believe in that Chazal as well, CH”V?)

Hence, when massive double-digit foot waves washed over NYC, it makes sense that, for instance, Seagate was also affected simply because of their topography (and perhaps because of their proximity to this immorality?), given that Hashem had sent out this destructive force “Sandy”.

I’m not claiming Sandy was or was not one of those cases of “kivan sheNitan Rishus….”. Nor can I claim this was a case of Oy LaRasha either. Who knows? But the possibility for each is certainly there, and the other 10 instances you quoted do not negate this.

As for the Yam Suf, Pesel Micha did make it through, but we had other zechuyos that compensated for “Halalu Ovdei Avoda Zara VaHalalu Ovdei Avoda Zara”. Do you also enjoy trying to bring a kitrug on what are presumably your people? Of course Hashem differentiated and saved us.

But, again, the differentiation at Krias Yam Suf doesn’t negate the concept of Kivan sheNitan Rishus…”. Hashem is always kind to us, but that doesn’t mean you can negate Chazal. Obviously, there are certain times/people/whatever when/where that Chzal applies and other times/people/whatever when/where it doesn’t.

Ahavben,

We don’t agree that it is much worse, we agree it is worse. I disagree on the “much.” The point of not writing the kesuba is that at least they realize that it is not something that they should be proud of. By analogy a murderer who boasts about his murder is worse than one who tries to hide it, but the boasting isn’t remotely comparable to the horrendous nature of the murder.

Kozov,

Is that statement by Rav Yehuda Hachasid brought down l’halacha? Does he mean a public macha or does he mean speaking to someone in private in a way in which he will listen like we understand “hochaich tochiach? Is he speaking about what one should do in golus or what one should do in Eretz Yisrael when it is under Jewish control?

Most importantly, I have the same kasha on Rav Yehuda Hachasid as I had whomever originally made the argument from Yonah. Why do we only find this by Yonah? The non-Jewish world has been violating the 7 mitzvos as long as the mitzvos have been around and we don’t find any common practice of protesting these actions.

As for our brethren not raised with Torah and Mitzvos, the best way to influence them is by example and outreach, not by shouting at the goyim.

You disagree with Rav Kaminetzky and the other named Gedolim. Which specific rabbi supports your position?

Assuming he counts, Rabbi Malkiel Kotler.

Rav Kotler expressed no such position implied. Nor has the non-expression of a position implied support for your position by any other Rabbi, OU, Agudah, etc.

Supporting a flawed candidate in no way, shape or form implies support for all his flaws. Otherwise you could never vote for any candidate, as they are all flawed. (That being said, it should be additionally and seperately noted that afaik HaRav Kotler never expressed to be in support of Corzine.)

TLKY,

The non-support of a position that you consider a mandate, is a support of my position, i.e. that we take no position.

In other words, my opinion is that Jews in golus should not publicly protest the bad things that the non-Jews do. Every time the non-Jews do something, in a public way, that violates the sheva mitzvos and the assorted entities and Gedolim do not encourage public protest, they are supporting my position.

Who said anything about a “mandate”? No one is supporting your position. ALL the Gedolim who have taken a position, including Rav Kaminetzky, have taken a strong position that we ought to protest. And certainly be opposed to this abomination.

TLKY,

My position is that we should keep our mouths shut and not tell the goyim what to do. This is the position being followed, in practice, by the vast majority of the American Orthodox Rabbinate.

If some great Rabbis (such as Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky) say that everyone should do their best to purchase trampolines and still the vast majority of other great Rabbis do not purchase trampolines and don’t encourage their followers to purchase trampolines, then it is reasonable to draw the inference that they feel that shev v’al taaseh odif.

Doniel -“Even worse, what kind of an example is it when we have sell-out phony Jews like Shelly Silver and David Weprin having the audacity to call themselves frum when their politics are destroying the world and are reflective of very evil attitudes?”

I agree. Thanx for posting.

How many Jews and Rabbanim voted for Cuomo?

He did alot more than Corzine did

benignuman -“My position is that we should keep our mouths shut and not tell the goyim what to do. This is the position being followed, in practice, by the vast majority of the American Orthodox Rabbinate.”

First of all, I’m Not interested in Your position. Second of all, Don’t read into their silence as they are on the opposition of the Gedolim that said to publically protest. They could hold either way.

So it appears to me we have some anon. posters here who hold that Noone should Protest, against well known Gedolim who say we should. I have no problem of who to listen to. If people aren’t sure what to do -let them ask their LOR!

GAW -“That makes it even worse, that they (The Lakewood “vaad” and its controllers) sold out to the Avoda Zara called Mammon. Corzine got the “Yeshiva” half a million dollars for a “Holocaust library”, so they had to repay in votes.”

I didn’t say I agreed with their Cheshbon, just explaining it.

And I didn’t mean to say they weighed one against the other, just they thought the Toeiva agenda would happen anyway -they weren’t being so astute regarding this political view. So they really didn’t take Corzine’s Pro-Toeiva agenda into Cheshbon.

Health,

I don’t see how they could hold either way. They either hold protesting is a kiddush hashem, in which case it is odd that they haven’t publicly made a kiddush hashem by encouraging their followers to protest, or they can hold that protesting is not good for some reason (or just serves no positive purpose), in which case it make perfect sense that they have not encouraged their followers to to protest.

Secondly, the Agudah’s policy of not publicly protesting in Chutz L’aretz is long-standing and well-known since before WWII.

I am so sick and tired of people trying to use the Corzine endorsement by the Lakewood Vaad as proof that one can vote a Pro-Toeiva canidatdate.

Lets set the record straight.

The Lakewood Va’ad is largley run by Balei Batim.

Frum and Erliche Ba’al Habtim who do much to help others but Bale Baatim not Rabbonim.

The Va’ad said that Rabbonim backed their view.

I am sure some did.

However Rabbi Shmuel Meir Katz personally hung up a sign stating if they mean him or any of the other Yeshiva Poskim (Rabbi Forsheimer, Rabbi Felder, Rabbi Lieberman) it is a mistake as they did not state one can vote for Corzine.

They all told anyone who asked that they would vote for Christie.

Rabbi Yeruchem Olshin shlita stated publicly that his signature was copied for the sign and though they presumed he would be OK with it he was not.

The overwhelming majority of Rabbonim in Lakewood stated one should vote for Christie.

And yes the overwhelming vote in lakewood was for Christie.

I have found this thread to be a very interesting discussion with interesting taanos on both sides.

Which is why it’s unfortunate that some of the posters fall back on a cheap shot like accusing those who disagree with them being Joseph.

Unless you have proof, try to not mix in irrelevant accusations.

Health, you wrote: “You also on the page previously denied that same-gender marriage contracts (Kesubos) can bring destruction in the world. You have taken Chazal’s words and twisted them and Krummed them up for your own ideological POV!”

I am not the one twisting Chazal’s words. All I did was look up the Gemara being quoted and I found that it didn’t say what was being claimed.

“Writing marriage contracts one to the other from the same gender is Much worse that just doing the act regarding its’ punishment in this world, as opposed to the actual sin. It’s called Makeh B’patesh – one sin on top of another.”

Makeh B’Patesh is the last of the 39 Malachos. Writing non-sensical marriage contracts (which is what these are halakhicly) is not “makeh b’patesh” even in a metaphorical sense. There is no “kli” of issur that is completed by writing these contracts.

It would take a very clear statement from Chazal for me to believe that writing a non-binding, useless kesuba on a same gender union is worse than the maaseh aveira itself. If there were aidim and hasra on the writing of such a “kesuba” but no eidim and hasra on the maaseh aveira, do you have a hava amina that someone would be chayav misa? If a kesuba was written up but before the maaseh one of them died, is there a hava amina that the living one would be chayav anything?

Oh, and please provide an actual citation to this Midrash of Rav Huna in the name of Rav Yosef, so I can look it up and see if it says what is claimed (although my points above would remain valid regardless).

JayMatt19,

I am not disagreeing that in the normal course of events if there is a kesubah there is a maaseh, and I am not disagreeing that if there is both it is worse than just a maaseh. I am pointing out that it is nearly absurd to think that the kesubah without a maaseh is worse than the maaseh itself.

In addition I am arguing that the it does not make sense for Yidden to get all worked up over the kesuba, when the main issue is the maaseh and we can’t stop that.

benignuman -“I am pointing out that it is nearly absurd to think that the kesubah without a maaseh is worse than the maaseh itself.”

Why even mention this? Noone would ever think this.

JayMatt,

1. “Kivan sheNitan reshus…” is not universally applicable but is a definite precept from Chazal, despite the many, many, instances where Hashem did, does and will differentiate.

2. We see from Chazal that protesting is sometimes called for. There are other cases, by goyim, too, such as Moshe Rabbeinu when Yisro’s daughters said Ish Mitzri, etc.

I can’t tell you one can directly extrapolate from Korach to this. But the concept is definitely there, and if gedolim say to protest it then this Chazal seems to be at least a “deyka” or indicator that this is, in fact, correct.

3. Lot would have been destroyed in Sedom, too, were it not for Avraham Avinu. The shachain part may refer to Jews (or may refer to non-Jews, too). But it’s not only a Jewish-Jewish relationship.

Rav Shmuel and the other gedolim who are signatories to the letter clearly agree with Rav Miller. Hardly a daas yochid, especially considering no one has yet been able to produce a single other godol who disagrees. Directly, not by one’s own boich svoros diving other rabbonims position based on their alleged silence.

Is that statement by Rav Yehuda Hachasid brought down l’halacha?

Why do you ask? In any case, I provided a source in halacha.

Does he mean a public macha or does he mean speaking to someone in private in a way in which he will listen like we understand “hochaich tochiach?

Yona’s entreatment was large scale. But the words in the statement indicate instruction for individuals too.

Is he speaking about what one should do in golus or what one should do in Eretz Yisrael when it is under Jewish control

Yona’s story occured outside of Eretz Yisrael.

Most importantly, I have the same kasha on Rav Yehuda Hachasid as I had whomever

originally made the argument from Yonah.

Good luck with that.

Why do we only find this by Yonah? The non-Jewish world has been violating the 7 mitzvos as long as the mitzvos have been around and we don’t find any common practice of protesting these actions.

Really, I don’t appreciate the question’s approach, since as you may have recently read, you shouldn’t base your opinion solely on what you read into a perceived silence- in this case of protests, when enjoined otherwise. But I’ll offer an answer: The current circumstances, as far as ability to influence without backlash is concerned, are different from whatever they historically were. Though to the extent you disagree with, I don’t know.

As for our brethren not raised with Torah and Mitzvos, the best way to influence them is by example and outreach, not by shouting at the goyim.

As for those who have not yet been reached, different routes are surely not a contradiction to that one.