Blaming the Same Gender Unions: A Personal Rant

1. Very little changed as “same gender” relationships have been legalized for almost a generation (and in most states, including ones most Jews live in, well before that). The only changes pertain to economic aspects of such relationships. “Same sex marriage” is against Torah – filing a joint tax return for two people of the same gender who maintain a common household is irrelevants from a halachic perspective.

2. Contrary to propaganda, there are very few “gays.” Almost all people are “straight” (i.e. hetereosexual). A “gay” species would quickly go extinct. The biggest and most perverse changes in western law, especially in terms of the number of people affected, pertained to liberalizing divorce to the point when marriage became nothing more than temporary partnership, and perhaps most importantly, legalizing extra-marital you know what (by repealing the laws against what had been in the statute books as the crimes of adultery and fornication). These changes occured gradually between the mid-19th century and late 20th century, but are well accepted, and probably more devasting, and more objectionable from a Torah perspective.

I hear what you are saying, but the truth is that theodicy is a very big part of our belief system, as evident even in Shema- there is schar v’ onesh.

Part of the “public policy” that G-d expects of the world, as evident in the Noahide Laws, is the issur against homosexual sex.

When we have the audacity to honor and officially recognize these illicit relationships, we are declaring war against G-d, Morality, and His Truth. B”H that religious G-d fearing Christians realize this in our country.

I am extremely put off by efforts of some in the Modern Orthodox camp, including those I greatly respect, to acknowledge these lifestyles and liberal movements.

One MO rabbi, in St. Louis, IIRC, said he’d have a cake at a kiddush in honor of a same-sex “marriage.” Another in Maine (R’ Akiva Herzfeld) involved himself in an effort to secure the legalization of such an abomination in that state. Where is the outrage?

The lesson to be taken from the mabul and from Rosh HaShanah davening is that HaShem cares about and judges the world. All people are precious to him; when people attempt to usurp the natural order and Morality by sanctioning this kind of filth, they are bringing judgment upon themselves.

Any understanding of the Noahide Laws can only lead us to the conclusions reached by R’ David Novak- Hazal understood that Noahide Laws institute a pubic policy for the world that Jews are obligated to advance in their intellectual and political and social life. For anyone to rally for anything contrary to this simple truth is a shame.

When you open a thread half expecting to read about feminist bus drivers on strike, you know the bowdlerization has gone too far…(haifagirl, am I right?)

The sad truth is that you have institutions like Beis Yaacov inviting openly gay leaders like Christine Quinn to address their student populations. It is high time we listen to the likes of R’ Avigdor Miller, zatsal, and his talmid, R’ Yehuda Levin, and urge our mosdos to stop sacrificing Torah values for money.

If the Briskers and others are principled enough to not accept money from those they believe are wrong (Zionists), kal v’chomer, how much more must Torah Jews be vigilant in not accepting funds from those who seek to corrupt society in dramatic ways and bring us down the road of the Greeks and Romans.

If I may so have reshus from the moderators, I saw the following on Matzav: http://matzav.com/follow-up-the-danger-of-yct-and-its-extreme-left-wing-agenda#comments Apparently, YCT is advocating that we embrace gay couples who otherwise keep shabbos, kashrus, etc.

They were addressed by a rav from Tel Aviv who lead the Yakar shul, where he allowed a lesbian couple to have a kiddush in honor of their adopting a baby. He lamented in his shiur that many congregants left over this. (I wonder why).

It was obvious to me even years before I became frum that homosexuality was wrong and certainly nothing to be embraced. Anyone who believes that this is something to celebrate, whether at the polls, or at a shul kiddush, cannot logically claim to follow the Torah. There is a broader spirit to the law, so to speak, which I see many on the left ignoring when they advocate for the public acceptance of homosexuality and the erosion of gender differences, etc.

Where is the outrage?

The Gemorah tells us that the reason that the goyim are not destroyed is because they don’t officially recognize toeiva “marriage”.

If the Gemorah cared enough about this, even though it is regarding the goyim, we too ought to care about it.

JM -“This was directly addressed in my 3rd attempt. Who should we be vocal to? The goyim? It is the job of a yid to educate a goy? Since when? It has always been our duty to separate ourselves form them and their mores, and for good reason. Additionally, there is no way you can claim statistically that if every frum jew voted against, then the STATE ELECTION would have turned out differently.

Please provide me with a proof of such a chiuv to go out and educate the goyim. Also please provide a proof that a yid can get punished due to the actions of a goy.

I dont believe that either exist”

You totally missed my point. I Did Not say go out and educate Goyim, but if you can have power over them -why not stop their Toeiva? And as far as elected officials are concerned, do you really think that the guy running the NY assembly, a “Frum” Jew who’s pro- Toeiva agenda, was really put their by Goyim?!?!

Get your head out of the sand.

“For the past few months it has been bothering me tremendously when I see that frum people and even “Rabbis” blame major catastrophes on same gender unions.”

I’m actually amazed that you wasted months broiling that Frum Jews had the “Chutzpah” to call out Toeivaniks with regarding Sandy.

“Let’s just blame the “others” and make ourselves feel good and righteous.”

Why don’t you practice what you preach? You had nothing else to do all these months but simmer about this? You have nothing that YOU have to work on – that you have to call us out about our beliefs?

That guy, Morah Rach, lacks a Torah perspective on the world.

There is a difference between having the letter of the law and the spirit of the law; you need both. To keep kosher but advocate for social policies which G-d finds repugnant demonstrates a lack of religious integrity.

I just read something interesting: In countries where polygamy is legal, marriage for gays is illegal. In countries where same-sex marriage is legal, polygamy is illegal.

I wonder why this is so? I am not looking at this from a Torah perspective. But for people who state the same gender marriage should be allowed because of love and freedom of choice, why would they prohibit polygamy?

I don’t remember where I saw it, but I once learned that gay marriage is a distortion of the way nature is supposed to be. When this becomes commonplace and recognized as legitimate, it causes the derech hatevah that Hashem set up to change. So yes, it can be that gay marriage causes more storms, earthquakes, etc.

Do I know 100% for sure that it caused it? No, but I know it’s a possibility. As for it being our fault, it might be. I did write to my representatives urging them not to support it. I guess I could have done more.

We need to show that we will not support it no matter what, and no matter what other things these people do, as good as it may be. When Bloomberg was trying to get support in NY for it, Agudas Yisrael honored him at their dinner, for all his help funding yeshivos. This must stop! If someone supports it, do not show any honor towards them! Hashem will get us the money we need, but we need to show our opposition to such groups.

rebdoniel, I enjoyed your posts on this thread. Thanks.

Health: I have to disagree because I do not think they are religious enough to take g-d into consideration. To them its a “natural” think so why restrict it. One can make the same argument with polygamy, so why do they outlaw it?

I’m not in favor of toeiva marriage. But personally I could care less whether my friends and family are. We have 613 mitzvos and Chazal were very detailed in explaining the kinds of middos we should strive for. But nowhere is there a mitzvah or virtue in having the correct political opinion, or convincing others that they’re wrong and we’re right!

It is, however, extremely important to be humble, treat others with kindness, and judge one another favorably. Yet when people are convinced their political opinion is correct, they become very arrogant, are rude to others, and vociferously denounce others who dare to have a different opinion. This is not the Torah way.

Of course, it is in general good to be well-informed and vote for the person we think is best — and I certainly believe in doing that. But let’s say someone never read the news, knew zero about politics, and never voted, but instead spent their time on Torah and mitzvos. Have they sinned? What have they done wrong? A single individual opinion (or vote for that matter) makes little or no difference. If King Shlomo was alive today, surely the updated Koheles would talk about how political discussions are vanity and nothingness and a distraction from our true task in this world.

I’ve only lost one friendship based on political opinion. It was somebody who couldn’t stop angrily rambling about 9/11 conspiracy theories and other nonsense. If he had been able to keep his mouth shut and talk to me about things we had in common, then I would’ve stayed friends.

America has had anti-sodomy laws on the books that punished people for simply engaging in toeiva relations. (Forget marriage and all.) It only was struck down a mere 9 years ago by an activist Supreme Court. Hopefully with a turnover of justices that decision will be reversed and sodomy will be outlawed again. In the past some States had long prison sentences for a sodomy conviction, but hopefully in the next set of laws they’ll actually have a death penalty for it.

I wrote a topic about exactly the same issue a few months ago. I fully agree.

This whole idea of “xxxx is caused by xxxx” is not befitting us. It is the way of the Muslims (“The Jews/Zionists caused the earthquake in Iran / the tsunami in Indonesia”) or the Christians (“AIDS is a punishment for using contraception”).

Our faith should be a little bit above such ridiculous nonsense. We do not know why things happen. All we need to do is believe in Hashem and do our jobs and live our lives.

Also this whole type of reasoning bothers me because it’s just so negative. Why does everything have to be negative? Why do some people have to base their yiddishkeit on OPPOSING everything and everyone they don’t like? Just live your life and let others live theirs.

TCG: You are dead wrong. This has always been the way of the Torah and Klal Yisroel. See ???”? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?.

Health: Well, if they think there’s nothing wrong with toeivah and the Torah is wrong to prohibit it, then I’d see what you’re saying. But if it’s only a political opinion, it’s not that important.

Anyway, who knows why they hold it — maybe they think the best way to mekarev secular Jews is to pick our battles and only fight for Torah to be translated into policy when it would help us with kiruv? The fact that there are frum Jews who approve of toeivah marriage may be confusing but perhaps it’s a great kindness from Hashem. If such people didn’t exist, many secular Jews would never consider making teshuvah! That’s how strong the hold of liberalism is on some Jews — and with liberals in general, they are absolutely closed to any argument against toeivah marriage. And many people stay very liberal after becoming BTs.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to influence people to have what we consider a more correct political opinion on some matter, if we think we can do so without transgressing (by looking down on others, hating them in our hearts, getting angry, saying something hurtful, bearing a grudge, etc.). I occasionally argue about politics even here.

But I don’t see why people get so worked up about it — it really makes no practical difference what a single person’s political opinions are. What matters is each individual’s Torah and mitzvos and middos and maasim tovim. Anyway, if I couldn’t stand it when people disagreed with me, then I’d hate everybody and never vote for anybody (since I agree with Republicans on Israel, toeivah and euthanasia, with Libertarians on foreign policy, and with progressive Democrats on most everything else.)

Every line in the Gemorah does have significance.

And we ought to fight against the legal institution of toeiva “rights”; be it so-called “marriage”, be it civil unions, or be it acceptance.

The Chassidishe Gatesheader: We do know in some cases that X can cause Y. For example, the Mishna Brurah says that talking during chazaras Hashatz causes shuls to be destroyed. We know that doing kibbud av v’em properly leads to long life. Where we have a source for something, there’s nothign wrong with relying on it.

It’s when people make up things (like when people blame things on a lack of tznius these days) that it becomes a problem. But as I wrote above, I believe there is a source that says homosexuality causes nature to go haywire.

The Chofetz Chaim, among many others, said the lack of tznius causes many tragedies.

JayMatt has a good point. When bad things happen to non-Jews after they approve toeivah marriage, then it’s possible that they’re being punished for that. But to the extent that a tragedy effects Jews, we need to do teshuvah and figure out, on an individual and communal level, what we need to rectify! That’s the way it has always been. When something bad happens to Jews, we do teshuvah! (Maybe even when bad things happen to others. When the Chofetz Chaim heard about an earthquake in Asia, he responded that we need to do teshuvah.)

So when something bad happens to us and we blame non-Jews, that’s not the right response. The Gemara says that even if someone puts their hand in their pocket and takes out the wrong coin, that is a tribulation that was caused by the person’s transgression. Surely if someone was harmed by a natural disaster, the same is true.

Yoelite: It’s not that we shouldn’t care — what I’m saying is that another frum Jew’s individual political opinion is just not that important in the scheme of things. I was reacting to people saying they were breaking off friendships with fellow frum Jews because they approved of toeivah marriage, and suffering anguish thinking about how awful it is that there are some frum Jews who don’t oppose it. We should be happy they are frum.

So people have contradictory political opinions — OK, everyone has their own issues and challenges. Hashem made us all different, and He does everything for the good. If someone is talking during davening or speaking lashon hara or getting angry all the time I would be a lot more worried about that (that is, actual mitzvos and middos) than about their political opinion on toeivah marriage, Israel or anything else.

wow. people are really defending something Hashem hates. this is unbelievable.