Black hats

No, Moshe Rabbainu did not wear a hat. (Then again, I doubt he wore pants either.) And no, there is nothing intrinsically holy about a black hat. However, wearing a black hat shows that you identify yourself with the yeshiva community, who put Torah and Halacha above all else. (That is not to say everybody else does not, only that they do.) Not wearing a black hat normally shows that one does not identify with the yeshiva community. This association only devolved fairly recently, but it is true nonetheless.

“Personally I have an extra level of respect for those rabbeim i know who dont feel the need to put on a black hat when they themselves did not grow up with one because they live the ideal that chitzonius is sheker.”

I’m not quite sure I follow that… would you have extra respect for a Rav who dresses in a T-shirt and shorts because he “lives the ideal that chitzonius is sheker”?

yid.period:

And the story about the fellow walking to shul does not prove anything. If someone has the custom to wear a black hat on shabbos and neglects that minhag due to the heat, then he is essentially neglecting what he has deemed kavod shabbas because of the heat. That’s not difficult to accept.

Obviously R S felt that it is an honor to Shabbos to wear an hat. (If a guy decides to “honor” Shabbos through wearing a pink left sock with his pant tucked in it, do we think that RJBS would have told him off when he neglected to do so?)

“Do you actually think the “yeshiva” world puts Torah and halacha before everything else?”

Yes, I think this is the underlying ideology of the Yeshiva world.

“I do not think a black hat or non black hat makes one a better Jew.”

I think your missing my point here. I’m not trying to suggest that every person wearing a black hat is automatically a good Jew. What I am saying is that the ideology of the Yeshiva movement as a whole is one of putting the Torah and Halacha above else; and that this is a marvelous ideology to identify oneself with. Of course, every culture will have its imperfections and its creeps; but the underlying philosophy of the Yeshiva world is one worth adopting.

“After 120, they are not going to ask you the color of your hat. I promise you that!”

True. But they will ask you what group of people and what ideology you identified yourself with.

The ???? (Sanhedrin 74B) says that if Jews have minhag to wear a different color shoelace, then it is ???? ??? ????? to wear the goyish color in public.

Mw13: Is there a charter that states the underlying movement of the “Yeshiva World” as you defined? I think EVERY movement in the frum world puts Torah above all. Modern Orthodox, Benai Akiva etc. They all believe Torah comes first. Why do you think black hatters have a monopoly on this?

Can you please provide a source that states they ask you in shmayim about your ideology and group of people you associate yourself with?

MANY MANY MANY moons ago I spent over almost 2 years living and working on a religious kibbutz.

Though I was never a black hatter (though I do sometimes wear a black hat on Shabbas) I was, at first, shocked at the way the guys dressed on Shabbas. They wore a white shirt, no tie, and nicely pressed chino type pants (that could be black or navy or olive or beige, etc.) and maybe a cardigan syle sweater, or in the cooler winter weather they wore an army style bomber jacket.

At first I thought, hey, this is a little TOO casual for Shabbas, even for a kibbutz.

Then I came to realize that THOSE were the clothes that, for them, were their good, SPECIAL Shabbat clothes (as opposed to the navy blue work shirts and pants most guys wore during the week.

So, my point is, it is a matter of intention, of kavana, what makes you dressed appropriately, dressed Jewishly.

On kibbutz, the clothes I described, along with a nice bright, clean kippah seruga (as opposed to the ones that get dirty looking from working in them all week) is JUST AS Shabbas’dik as a gold striped kapota and streimel for a Yerushalmi, or an 800 dollar suit and a new Borsalino for someone in Flatbush.

Bottom line…

Al tistakail ba’kankan, ela b’ma she’yaish bo.

yid.period: I also wonder if one of the reasons why we have a shidduch crisis might be attributed to the fact Boys & Girls put to much emphasis on the chetzones and not on the pinemeas?

We all read the stories of the gedolim and their spouses but do we internalize them? Did Rabbi Akiva’s wife ask if he wore a black hat or yechus? Is it better to be single than marry a great guy who is a talmud chachum but does not wear a hat?

Popa: That is my point. A lot of these guys are NOT Am Horatzim, and are even talmuda chochamim who do not wear black hats. They are shomer torah and mitzvos etc. Should we have a shidduch crises because of that? My OPINION is no! We need to look past all the bubba masis and see if the person is Yera Shmayim and shomer torah & mitzvos.

Totally agree Anon1m0us.

Should you marry him just because he wears a blackhat? NO find out if wears a black hat on his neshama (yea, I know, I said it)

Should you NOT marry him because he DOESNT wear a blackhat? Also no. Marry the person for who they really are, not what their clothing says about them.

FWIW

Not once has he asked the baal tefila to put on a hat.

He knows his customers. Why should he chase some away by asking them to put on a hat?

Then I came to realize that THOSE were the clothes that, for them, were their good, SPECIAL Shabbat clothes (as opposed to the navy blue work shirts and pants most guys wore during the week. So, my point is, it is a matter of intention, of kavana, what makes you dressed appropriately, dressed Jewishly. On kibbutz, the clothes I described, along with a nice bright, clean kippah seruga (as opposed to the ones that get dirty looking from working in them all week) is JUST AS Shabbas’dik as a gold striped kapota and streimel for a Yerushalmi, or an 800 dollar suit and a new Borsalino for someone in Flatbush.

Really? So if they run around in their bathing suit all week, but “l’kovod Shabbos” they put on a Gucci T-Shirt and shorts, its just as good as a suit and tie and black hat, since it is the “intention” that counts?

That’s ok — I’ll fix MY daughter up with Rabbi Akiva!

The trick is to find an am haaretz who will turn into a Rabbi Akiva.

Had the Satmar Rav shown a bit less hostility towards “those circles” he might be appreciated more.

First of all, he was a big oheiv Yisroel whose “hostility” was never directed at people, but at anti-Torah ideals.

Secondly, was Hertzl better?

And shidduch crises due to insisting on black hats? Any more jokes? The situation is worse in the MO circles.

the shidduch situation is worse in the MO community? I’ve never heard that before. In my MO hs, we had a senior kallah and another girl married by November. The rest were in seminary (mostly).

By 23, I would estimate about 90% of my class was married. There are a few stragglers of course…

I think the difference is that often, MO kids choose to get married later and are not part of the “shidduch” crisis. I also know that sometimes, formerly RW people become MO as they stay single. So they move from pot to pot.

The great G’dolim of the past also wore grey clothing and hats. In addition, aside from most current chasidish Rebbes, I never saw a Rosh Yeshiva or other Rav without a tie. If a black hat is now part of the Yeshivish uniform, wearing a tie would have the same requirement.

anon1m0us:

“I think EVERY movement in the frum world puts Torah above all. Modern Orthodox, Benai Akiva etc. They all believe Torah comes first.”

True, everybody puts Torah first to some extent; but the question is to what extent.

The yeshiva world scrupulously tries to avoid anything and everything that could damage their ruchniyus. They do not have TVs, they do not read secular magazines, and they will make do with far less so as to be able to learn more. This allows them to lead lives devoted entirely to serving Hashem, and do nothing (or as little as possible) else.

The modern world, on the other hand, tries have a good time both in this world and the next. They tend to be much more open to

(and influenced by) the culture around them, and this shows in how they conduct themselves. (The more influenced one is by the secular culture around him, the less of a Torah-oriented life he/she lives.) They keep and follow the Torah, but it is not all they live for.

In my mind, the MO philosophy is summed up by YU’s motto, “Torah u’Madda”. Torah, but everything else also. As opposed to Lakewood, which says “Torah, and nothing else”.

yid.period:

“mw13: You’re right, but the point of this whole conversation is that there is too much emphasis placed on what one is wearing instead of really judging someone based on who they are.”

No, the point of this topic, and the gist of most of my comments so far, is to answer this question from the OP: “Im just really curious to know what the deal is with Black Hats. What does it mean? What goes along with wearing one?”

Also, I do not think “there is too much emphasis placed on what one is wearing”. What one wears is an expression of who one is, and what they think is the appropriate hashkafa. You can shout “chitzoniyus” from today till tomorrow, but at the end of the day what a person wears more often then not gives everybody else a pretty good idea of what their hashkofos are.

apushatayid:

“Forget the person. Is the hat a yiray shamayim? If someone would tell me that wearing a black hat (or a purple cardigan) improves their yiras shamayim, I would tell them to make sure to own one for each day of the week and a super nice one for shabbos.”

No, neither a black hat nor a purple cardigan inherently improves one’s yiras shumayim. However, dressing a certain way may identify one as a yiray shumayim.

“Just wearing it because it is an identifier, is not necessarily a bad thing, but other choose other identifiers to also connote “ben torah”.

You can choose to identify yourself as a ben Torah however you want, but you gotta make sure everybody else realizes what you’re trying to say. In today’s world, a ben Torah is usually identified by a white shirt and black pants. If somebody chooses to wear a T-shirt and jeans, he can’t blame everybody else for not realizing he is trying to identify himself as a ben Torah.

“Lastly, what does it mean to a person when they make the statement that they belong to a certain group?”

It means that they (roughly) believe in the general hashkafos and derech ha’chayim of that group. Also, they will often want a spouse who shares the hashkofos and derech ha’chayim of the group.

Grandmaster: “Know his customers?” He may or may not, but you definitely don’t. It isn’t a kiruv shiur where he has to worry about frightening people off. In fact I’d be very surprised if less than 90% of the people there have smicha. As an aside, about half of them do wear hats. He could insure that the baal tfilla wears a hat without any trouble at all, but he doesn’t.

tbt: Really? Any proof of that at all?

I think the difference is that often, MO kids choose to get married later and are not part of the “shidduch” crisis. I also know that sometimes, formerly RW people become MO as they stay single. So they move from pot to pot.

What is this based upon? I happen to know many more people who’ve gone the other way, from MO to RW.

Just consider the fact that YU decided to invest 6 million dollars 4 years ago to address the “problem” of MO people going RW.

MW13: You said “The yeshiva world scrupulously tries to avoid anything and everything that could damage their ruchniyus.” Do you think this is true? Haven’t we seen countless examples where the opposite is true? In addition, what is wrong with Torah Umada? Most of our Tannim worked! Not one of our Taanim or Amorim which we hold dear, relied on government assistance and burdening society is general to support them. Each gadol did what they needed to do in order to learn. The chofetz chaim has a store etc. When I was in Chasom Sofer as a child in 7th grade, it was a boy from a “frum yeshivish” home that brought in a improper magazine to show to the other boys. It was the chassidsh man on Motza Shabbos who was behind “the wall” in Video Rama in BP. Hamyvin Yovin. Yes, I will be shouting chotznius because we have lost our moral compass and started judging other people!

This whole concept of we hold Torah more important than other groups is disturbing to me. As the example in one of my previous posts about Moshiach coming and not wearing the right hat. Do you think hashem really cares about our hats? Or if we are affiliated to Orthodox, Chassidish, Mo, etc? Kovah Etim is not learning 100 blatts. It is learning that one line of chumish at 6:00 PM, every night no matter what. THAT is what shows one is machshiv torah and that is why K’vayah Eitem is asked and not how many blatt. When I see people who work all day and show up early to learn and at night to learn. To me those are the pillars of the world! They could use the most often heard excuse “I am tired” etc. They do not. They make time to learn.

I, as a black hatter, who went to frum yeshivous etc. am tired of people being lumped into categories that suits the frum world.

What I do find funny is that if you go to a chasddish shteibel, the most frummiest black hatter is considered a bum. Doesn’t this tell us something about us looking at the chetzonius?

The lakewood world might find their derech to hashemn sitting and learning while asking for handouts or marrying rich, is the best way to hashem. MO feel working and learning is the best way to hashem. Chassdim fidn their way is best. They are different ways, not one is better or worse, as long as they lead to avodas hashem.

Truth be told, I’m 28. I didn’t claim that 90% of all MO women are married by 23. I said 90% of my graduating class.

There is a trend for RW MO kids who go to RWMO/Charedi-lite institutions in Israel to go RW/Yeshivish. But IME, the older the Yeshivish oriented women get and remain unmarried, the more likely they are to become MO and move to the UWS. My sister is in her early 30s and all the girls from her HS BY class who are still single live on the UWS and are no longer Yeshivish. I think this has to do with the fact that the older a non-married Yeshivish girl gets, the more educated/worldly she gets, whereas a non-married Yeshivish boy stays in Yeshiva. So she starts relating more and more towards the MO crowd whereas he is just likely to marry someone much younger, much to the disdain of AZ.

Again, just my experience.

Grandmaster…

“The bathing suit remark was a hypothetical comparison.”

I realize that, but it was not a valid comparison because the bathing suit and t-shirt is (regardless of how fancy or expensive) pritzusdik and inappropriate for ANY day or time (other than a non-mixed gender gym or swimming pool) and kal v’chomer for Shabbas.

The way they DO dress is NOT pritzusdik NOR inappropriate and is, for them, me’yuad l’Shabbas Kodesh, and is the norm for those communities, just as Brooklyn has it’s ‘norm’ and Meah She’arim has it’s ‘norm’.

I would defy ANYONE to go, for example, to a place like Itamar or Hevron, where people are living on the front lines of Jewish history, where the average guy has more Tanach and Halacha and Gemara in his head than the average guy in Brooklyn does, – and tell him he doesn’t dress properly because he doesn’t wear a black hat.

AGAIN, I am not advocating that anyone HERE should stop wearing a black hat. I AM saying it is not the ONLY legitimate me’halaich.

Regarding the people on the Kibbutz who were wearing a white shirt and Chino pants. Please note that these people were in many cases, families who got off the boat after WW2 and had nothing but the shirt on their back. They worked like slaves doing hard physical labor all week to build up the desert which was EY into the beautiful place it is today. They had no money for fancy suits. This may have been all they could afford. In addition, it was very hot, and they often had no money for air conditioning, so they lived without it. This was the only way they could be comfortable and have some Oneg Shabbos. They gave long years of their lives in addition, to serve in the army and protect their brethren. They did not have the benefit of going to college after HS and starting a rich career. They were mosrei nefesh on all fronts, and this is how they could be comfortable on Shabbos.

Let us give them a little bit of hakaras hatov.

“..However, dressing a certain way may identify one as a yiray shumayim.”

It identifies one as dressing the way one perceives a yiray shumayim should look(in his eyes). This is different than actually being yiray shumaim.