bitachon

I always understood the difference to be that emunah is the belief or knowledge that God exists and runs the world while bitachon is relying on and trusting in that powerful God that you know exists. Emunah is more intellectual while bitachon can take many forms. It can have actual practical ramification on decisions you make (actively relying on Hashem can theoretically change decisions you may make regarding health or parnasah for example) or just emotionally (giving strength in times of trouble). Bitachon is built upon emunah but they are not the same thing.

Go to torahanytime and go to the mussar category and search for shiurim on Chovos Halevavos.

Emunah is Faith, faith that Hashem is One and the Only One. Emunah is the posuk Shema Yisroel. Bitachon is emunah, belief and faith that Hashem runs it all and that He will do and knows what is best for all of us. Of course we need both of these concepts in our lives constantly. If we use our inner intellectual eyes instead of our material eyes, we will see this on a daily basis. Think about your life and you’ll see how Hashem constantly watches over you and helps you in everything you do. Bitachon is more than hoping. Its KNOWING, through emunah, that Hashem is with you.

Becoming a Baal Betuchen & Emuna (Faith & trust) is no simple matter. A person can’t just say, let me have faith in hashem, it is a long & Difficult journey. Becoming a person of Betuchen & Emuna in Hashem is an average of a 30 year journey minimum. (not from when your born, but from when the journey starts) Do you know what these 30 years are? Only the first 10 percent of the journey is learning every mussar sefer in the world, the other 90 percent of the journey is passing every single Nisayon (test) with Ahava (love) etc… , from accidents to robberies to deaths Chas V’Shalom etc… A true person of Faith knows the mishna in pirkei Avos that says the good & bad is all for the good every minute of the day , 24-7. Every Nisayon that a person gets from Hashem & passes, brings him closer & closer to Hashem & every test that a person experiences gets harder & harder, but a person can never ask Hashem why something bad is happening, because we all know that if a person was not able to pass a test then Hashem would never give it to him. Nothing in the world will effect a person of Bitachon, no matter what happens, cause he knows that everything Hashem does is for the good. Do you know what the reward for being a person of Faith & trust is? The reward is worth more then all the money in the world, the reward is the gift of Happiness, you get to be the happiest person in the world cause nothing in the world will effect you. Now can you tell me a better reward then that?.

Old Man – I did – but I’ve been through the system

Mashiach Agent – a philosophical question – should I try to convince myself of something JUST because it will make me happy?

Bitachon means not working (but learning Torah) and trusting that Hashem will provide your parnassah. Likewise, not going on dates (but learning Torah) and trusting that Hashem will provide you a wife. Likewise, not being involved in your children’s lives (but learning Torah) and trusting that Hashem will raise them for you. Likewise, not being involved in helping your community (but learning Torah) and trusting that Hashem will take care of them instead.

In short, the more Torah you learn, the more responsibilities you shirk, the better your bitachone is. Like several people said before, becoming a baal bitachon is not easy, but every step counts.

MA, ever heard of something called rude sarcasm?

M, I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but I must protest what I perceive, after several readings, to be the intention of your post.

Your words appear to be the product of severe bitterness, cynicism, negativity and derisiveness. It seems that you have no qualms about ridiculing a large segment of K’lal Yisrael, whose lifestyle you obviously do not understand, but are nevertheless willing to reduce to simplistic sophistry in order to mock its supposed parasitic and irresponsible culture.

If this analysis is correct, your words deserve a ????, but not a rebuttal; if it is not, I apologize for misinterpreting them, and I ask for your clarification.

I was taught that emunah means believing that something can/will happen. To M’s example above, emunah would mean that someone who wants to sit and learn would trust that Hashem will provide for his needs.

Bitachon is belief that whatever Hashem does is for the best. So in the same example, if the person is sitting and learning, without going to earn a living at all, and he ends up getting evicted from his home, bitachon would be believing that this was the best thing that could have happened to him.

To catch yourself — yes, you read my initial post correctly. Although you read it as written from a place of severe bitterness, cynicism, negativity and derisiveness, I had hoped that the examples would forcefully illustrate some of the mishiga’as that pervades our community. The irresponsibility of not appropriately planning for the future leads way too many young men to end up turning 30, with little education, no training, and only desperate means of supporting themselves and their families. If they are not cut out to be a magid shiur, a school rebbe, a kiruv professional, etc — and that describes at least half of our young men — then they are stuck in a terribly stressful position, and “the system” has failed them.

It is absolutely wonderful that we live in a time and place where so many of us can sit and learn — it is mamash a brachah that we have never in our history seen on this scale. Of course we need roshei yeshiva, magidei shiur, and even school rebbes that know the difference between Brachose and Bchorose, and between a Nesivose (Hamishpat) and a Nesivose Shalom. And I 100% support the high-quality yeshivose that will provide am yisroel with the learners and leaders that we desperately need.

At the same time, I see tremendous irresponsibility in the system that leaves so many young men in positions of destitution and dependence on their parents, their in-laws, and social welfare. These people believe they are ma’aminim bnei ma’aminim, betuchim bnei btuchim. It leads to very sad stories, even among those who can honestly say about themselves im tivakshena kakesef uchmatmunim tichapsenah. If my post pushes even one person to think a bit more deeply about their own emunah, bitachon, and the decisions they make, and pushes them to take even one step towards ensuring a responsible path for themselves or their friends, I will be consider the post as having served an important to’eles.

In all honesty, thank you for your inspiringly thoughtful and respectful response. I hope that all of us can continue to communicate respectfully about weighty matters, ha’omdim b’rumo shel olam.

“In all honesty, thank you for your inspiringly thoughtful and respectful response. I hope that all of us can continue to communicate respectfully about weighty matters, ha’omdim b’rumo shel olam.”

Sorry M, there is nothing respectful in the way you chose to bring up this issue.

Avram in MD — “If you truly want to convince people to move in a different direction, provide some suggestions or ideas.”

Here is one small step. Yeshiva high schools can take more seriously basic mathematics and writing. The ability to perform addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, and basic algebraic manipulation is crucial to everything from home economics to business to taxes. Jobs that would take someone that lacks these skills (or who has very poor versions of these skills) are very few and poorly paid. Attempting to make up ground in this area when one is trying to take some college courses or professional training is a nightmare. Likewise, basic reading, comprehension, and writing are also skills necessary for almost any decent job. These are necessary skills for almost any job, yet many yeshiva high-schools do not take either seriously, and neither do the bochrim. Too many times have I heard parents, of good bochrim in excellent yeshivas, speak about these subjects as a liability of a good yeshiva.

I have too many friends who have gone back to school or have tried finding work after many years learning, and lack these skills. It is a miserable place to be in. Even 40 minutes a day, four days a week, but taken seriously, of learning basic mathematics and basic reading/comprehension/writing would go a very along way to ensuring that our boys are well-equipped should they one day choose to do something other than learning.

As an aside, the ability to coherently write is a skill that will serve them very well in the world of learning, rabbanus, kiruv, etc also.

gavra_at_work – “If you teach secular studies to all 1000, none of them will become a Gadol. (In practice there are quite a few counterexamples, but that is the theory.)”

As gavra_at_work himself points out, this is not even true — every person here can name a dozen undisputed gedolim who had extensive secular educations. This includes gedolei harishonim and gedolei ha’achronim ad hayome hazeh.

Moreover, your choice of citing R’ Dessler is particularly puzzling given that R’ Dessler learned in, and eventually spoke highly of, the yeshiva in Kelm. As wikipedia will tell you, this yeshiva “was unusual in the sense that it provided its pupils with a secular education parallel to their religious studies, enabling them to earn a livelihood rather than having to take up rabbinic positions.” So unless you are suggesting that R’ Dessler himself was somewhat lacking in Torah because of his secular studies education, I suggest you rethink your point.

Also, “The idea of a Yeshiva (Al Pi Rav Dessler, and what many of the “Frum” Yeshivos hold L’maase) is that the 999 should fail out so that the one who is pushed can become a Gadol.” Do you really think that if you asked R’ Dessler, or a single gadol byisroel anywhere, that they would tell you better that 999 *fail* to produce 1 gadol?!?! Since when do we not care about 999/1000 of acheinu? I’m not sure what you meant but this sounds absolutely awful — I would never speak like this with my child in mind, and I’m sure neither would you, nor any gadol byisroel.

Finally, of course it’s true that engaging in an extensive secular education will come at the expense of developing into a true talmid chachom. Learning Torah requires dedication and focus and long hours of ameilus. There is no way that a person can spend hours and hours a day doing something other than learning Torah, especially in their formative years, and expect to become a talmid chacham. However, we are not discussing an extensive secular education with hours a day of literature and history and science and social studies, but merely some basic skills that will serve boys well both in talmud torah and beyond daled koslei beis hamedrash.

Bored_on_the_Job – I said some Yeshivos (or many “Frum” Yeshivos), not all. A good way to tell (IMHO) if the Yeshiva is of that Shittah is if they allow their Bais Medrash Bochrim to attend college, or insist that anyone not putting 100% of their time into Yeshiva is a failure who needs to be kicked out.

M: I believe it is the piece quoted by Joe here:

The Making of Talmidei Chachomim

Their point is that in order to maintain a high level of seriousness, its talmdimim must be focused, to the exclusion of other focuses.

The idea was that if the institution is supporting you, then you need to be 100% focused on what you are studying there.

Im Kein, they should kick out married Bochrim as well, or Bochrim who have a side job of Laining, Moshgiach, or selling stuff on Ebay, etc. It is davka college education with which they have the issue.

The quote from Vaykira Rabbah of course does not mean anything the likes of what you took it to mean. The medrash there states only that out of a thousand students, only one ends up being really something special. That’s true about everything — of a thousand kids who play basketball, only one will go to the NBA, of a thousand scientists only one will help cure cancer, of a thousand writers, only one will author a best-seller, v’chulei v’chulei. But chalilah that does not say anything the sorts of that which you are suggesting — that somehow it is worth our sacrificing a thousand of our children so we can get out one gadol. Chalilah v’challah.

Also, despite what’s written on that site, the Rambam never says anything about a thousand fools dying “to obtain one genuine scholar”. The Rambam does not say that in Mishne Torah, not in Peirush hasmishnayose, not his tshuvose, or any other of his ksavim. What the Rambam does say, in the psicha to Moreh Nevuchim, is that he prefers to address the one wise person, even if 10,000 ignorant people will fail to understand him. Of course the meaning there is unrelated to what you are suggesting.

Finally, of course there are yeshivas that will not push out general slackers, but will push out those studying in college. Some have something against college per se. But of course any serious yeshiva will not allow a bochur to stay if he spends half his time selling things on ebay, etc, any more than if he were in college. I’m sure there is no serious place like this that would be ok with a bochur spending serious time on outside pursuits. Small jobs here and there people are usually ok with since it might provide a small parnassah, it’s a good outlet, etc, but not a distraction from one’s growth. College, just like any other pursuit that requires substantial investment of time and effort, would certainly be a problem. And yes, there are yeshivas that do not accept married bochrim, in large part because that detracts them from their learning and hasmadah.

I dont think you will find ant Rosh Yeshiva who would say he runs his yeshiva based on that haskgafah.

Of course he wouldn’t say it, other than behind closed doors to other Roshei Yeshiva with plausible deniability. Just like the Charaidim would never actually say that if the Medinah was destroyed tomorrow and no life was lost, they would make a bracha.

People know better than to shout unpopular shittos from the rooftops which will cause backlash.

The quote from Vaykira Rabbah of course does not mean anything the likes of what you took it to mean.

Not me, Rav Dessler. Argue with him.

College, just like any other pursuit that requires substantial investment of time and effort, would certainly be a problem.

Meheichei Teisi, Chaim Berlin & Torah V’Daas always had college students with full Sedorim. Other Yeshivos still do today.

To catch yourself — yes, you read my initial post correctly. Although you read it as written from a place of severe bitterness, cynicism, negativity and derisiveness, I had hoped that the examples would forcefully illustrate some of the mishiga’as that pervades our community. The irresponsibility of not appropriately planning for the future leads way too many young men to end up turning 30, with little education, no training, and only desperate means of supporting themselves and their families. If they are not cut out to be a magid shiur, a school rebbe, a kiruv professional, etc — and that describes at least half of our young men — then they are stuck in a terribly stressful position, and “the system” has failed them.

It is absolutely wonderful that we live in a time and place where so many of us can sit and learn — it is mamash a brachah that we have never in our history seen on this scale. Of course we need roshei yeshiva, magidei shiur, and even school rebbes that know the difference between Brachose and Bchorose, and between a Nesivose (Hamishpat) and a Nesivose Shalom. And I 100% support the high-quality yeshivose that will provide am yisroel with the learners and leaders that we desperately need.

At the same time, I see tremendous irresponsibility in the system that leaves so many young men in positions of destitution and dependence on their parents, their in-laws, and social welfare. These people believe they are ma’aminim bnei ma’aminim, betuchim bnei btuchim. It leads to very sad stories, even among those who can honestly say about themselves im tivakshena kakesef uchmatmunim tichapsenah. If my post pushes even one person to think a bit more deeply about their own emunah, bitachon, and the decisions they make, and pushes them to take even one step towards ensuring a responsible path for themselves or their friends, I will be consider the post as having served an important to’eles.

In all honesty, thank you for your inspiringly thoughtful and respectful response. I hope that all of us can continue to communicate respectfully about weighty matters, ha’omdim b’rumo shel olam.

Avram in MD — “If you truly want to convince people to move in a different direction, provide some suggestions or ideas.”

Here is one small step. Yeshiva high schools can take more seriously basic mathematics and writing. The ability to perform addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, and basic algebraic manipulation is crucial to everything from home economics to business to taxes. Jobs that would take someone that lacks these skills (or who has very poor versions of these skills) are very few and poorly paid. Attempting to make up ground in this area when one is trying to take some college courses or professional training is a nightmare. Likewise, basic reading, comprehension, and writing are also skills necessary for almost any decent job. These are necessary skills for almost any job, yet many yeshiva high-schools do not take either seriously, and neither do the bochrim. Too many times have I heard parents, of good bochrim in excellent yeshivas, speak about these subjects as a liability of a good yeshiva.

I have too many friends who have gone back to school or have tried finding work after many years learning, and lack these skills. It is a miserable place to be in. Even 40 minutes a day, four days a week, but taken seriously, of learning basic mathematics and basic reading/comprehension/writing would go a very along way to ensuring that our boys are well-equipped should they one day choose to do something other than learning.

As an aside, the ability to coherently write is a skill that will serve them very well in the world of learning, rabbanus, kiruv, etc also.

gavra_at_work – “If you teach secular studies to all 1000, none of them will become a Gadol. (In practice there are quite a few counterexamples, but that is the theory.)”

As gavra_at_work himself points out, this is not even true — every person here can name a dozen undisputed gedolim who had extensive secular educations. This includes gedolei harishonim and gedolei ha’achronim ad hayome hazeh.

Moreover, your choice of citing R’ Dessler is particularly puzzling given that R’ Dessler learned in, and eventually spoke highly of, the yeshiva in Kelm. As wikipedia will tell you, this yeshiva “was unusual in the sense that it provided its pupils with a secular education parallel to their religious studies, enabling them to earn a livelihood rather than having to take up rabbinic positions.” So unless you are suggesting that R’ Dessler himself was somewhat lacking in Torah because of his secular studies education, I suggest you rethink your point.

Also, “The idea of a Yeshiva (Al Pi Rav Dessler, and what many of the “Frum” Yeshivos hold L’maase) is that the 999 should fail out so that the one who is pushed can become a Gadol.” Do you really think that if you asked R’ Dessler, or a single gadol byisroel anywhere, that they would tell you better that 999 *fail* to produce 1 gadol?!?! Since when do we not care about 999/1000 of acheinu? I’m not sure what you meant but this sounds absolutely awful — I would never speak like this with my child in mind, and I’m sure neither would you, nor any gadol byisroel.

Finally, of course it’s true that engaging in an extensive secular education will come at the expense of developing into a true talmid chachom. Learning Torah requires dedication and focus and long hours of ameilus. There is no way that a person can spend hours and hours a day doing something other than learning Torah, especially in their formative years, and expect to become a talmid chacham. However, we are not discussing an extensive secular education with hours a day of literature and history and science and social studies, but merely some basic skills that will serve boys well both in talmud torah and beyond daled koslei beis hamedrash.

Also, here is something that I don’t think you understand. Yeshivas that insist that its bochrim devote themselves 100% of their time to Torah, and do not allow college classes, don’t necessarily view those attending college as “failures who need to be kicked out”. Their point is that in order to maintain a high level of seriousness, its talmdimim must be focused, to the exclusion of other focuses.

There are plenty of very successful bochrim who have chosen at some point to leave full-time learning so they can earn a parnassah to support themselves and their families. That is very important, but that doesn’t mean it should happen while the bochur is in the yeshiva.

Many years ago Harvard (or another one of the ivy league colleges) had a rule that you were not allowed to be married while a graduate student there. The idea was that if the institution is supporting you, then you need to be 100% focused on what you are studying there. Of course everyone has things on which they spend some of their time, but the schools did not allow its students to have serious responsibilities outside of their “learning” lhavdil. The importance of focus is important, of course, in yeshiva just as well.

gavra_at_work –“People know better than to shout unpopular shittos from the rooftops which will cause backlash.”

Go speak with any rosh yeshiva of any respectable institution. Not only will they not yell this from rooftops, they wouldn’t even tell this to you bchedrei chadarim. Because it’s not true. Unless they are secretly sadistic horrible people, no rosh yeshiva runs an institutions that aims to produce one gem at the cost of leaving hundreds in the dust. It’s not true at BMG, it’s not true in the Mir, it’s not true in Rabeinnu Chaim Berlin, Philly, Torah V’Daas, Riverdale, South Fallsburg or anywhere else.

“The quote from Vaykira Rabbah of course does not mean anything the likes of what you took it to mean.

Not me, Rav Dessler. Argue with him.”

This is another unfair misattribution. Read again what R’ Dessler zt”l wrote in the link you sent. He is describing what occurs in many yeshivas, and how they are run. To justify what is going on there he writes “I heard that justification of the Rashei Yeshiva to pay such a heavy price to produce Gedolei Torah was Vayikra Rabbah 2:1….” He’s not claiming to believe in this shita, he’s not promoting this shita, and it’s not clear (from the link at least) that he thinks it’s a smart idea. He’s just trying to understand why some places function the way they do, and to do that he’s citing how some people try to justify it. So I don’t think it’s fair to attribute this perverse “shita” to him.