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Old man – Could you answer the question I posted to the other guy?
“Does Barley & oats have to be Yoshon or is it just wheat?”
All five types of grain are included in the issur of chodosh. What these five types are is debatable. ???? is what we call wheat. The rest are debatable. Since there are many types of grains that are similar but not identical, and since some of what we call grains (oats, spelt)did not exist in Israel in biblical times, the identification of these five grains is anything but simple.
What about Bas Yisroel ? 🙂
Old Man: Actually, none of the five grains are Muskam to everyone. There are opinions that Chitah is a slightly different strand of most wheat that we buy. (When i researched this I wrote a “Purim Torah” article about how there is nothing on Earth you can eat because everything is a Safek B’racha in one way or another.) The generally accepted five grains are wheat, barley, oats, rye, and spelt. There are Ta’anas and arguments about each of them but you can’t go wrong holding by those five.
To all & MDG -“Most (about 2/3) of wheat grown in the USA is Yashan, BUT about 80% of durum wheat – used for pasta – is summer wheat, planted in late April.
Barley and Oats are also summer crops.”
IMO, let’s say everything MDG posted is correct and that the opinion of the old man is correct about wheat that it’s Chitah, I see No reason to be Makpid on Vaday Yoshon in America.
The wheat for bread here – Al Pi Rov is Yoshon. And the others, even if they are Chodosh, there is now a third Suffek on top of the Bach’s other two. This Suffek is – are durum wheat, barley and oats from the 5 types of grain (Chameshes Minay Dogon)?
My data come from here:
http://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/Usual_Planting_and_Harvesting_Dates/uph97.pdf
Sam2, you are correct, ???? is not necessarily what we call wheat. Any serious discussion must refer to the scientific names and not to the common names.I think that we should do what is commonly done and not worry too much about it.
It is actually a huge problem for some people. Our family has a very close friend who has Celiac disease (an intolerance for gluten). The only one of the 5 Minim that is gluten-free is oats. However, because some dispute oats as 5 Minim, celiacs who follow this have no way to ever make Hamotzi (Matzoh on Pesach is a huge problem). So the vast majority, if not all, celiacs in the world assume that oats are really one of the 5 Minim and don’t worry about recent Ta’anas against this.
I think the whole proof about oats is wrong anyway. They claim that gluten content is what is Machmitz and therefore, by definition, something without any gluten cannot be one of the 5 Minim. But the Mishnah in Challah (and other places) has the Machlokes between the Chachamim and R’ Yochanan Ben Nuri about whether or not rice is one of the 5 Minim. The Yerushalmi there asks that they should test if it is Machmitz. The Gemara says they did and the Machlokes was whether the experiment resulted in Chimutz or Sirchon. These Poskim explain this Gemara as saying that rice has a minimal gluten content but not enough so it’s a Machlokes, while oats with no gluten at all are Vaddai not one of the 5 Minim. The issue with this is that rice has no gluten at all also. So it’s very hard to say that Halachic Chimutz is tied directly to gluten content. For that to be true, R’ Yochanan Ben Nuri would have to have such a drastically different definition of Chimutz than the Chachamim, and if so it would be incredibly unlikely that rice is the only thing they dispute. Oats have many of the same properties as the other 4 Minim (aside from gluten) and react much more similarly to those 4 when mixed with water than it does to rice.
MDG, old man & Sam2,
The three of you have no comment on my post about Vaday Yoshon ? (That it is another Chumra to bite the dust.) So you all agree with me?
Sorry, you have your facts wrong. Until 1972 the US had a huge grain surplus and almost all the wheat was Yashan. In ’72 the US began seling large quantities to the USSR and depleated the carryover from privious years. Since then, the majority of wheat in the market, except for winter wheat, is Chadash.
Furthermore, the Rema’s heter, really from Teshuvos HaRosh is based on an intersting sfek sfeika. Since today this information can be easily clarified, as Rav Herman does, one may no longer rely on a sfek sfeika (which anyways is not relevant when the majority is Chadash).
Re: bishul/pas yisroel- the OU does NOT hold lightbulbs help at all. Those who are lenient, only do so for the bulb in the oven itself, not one in the room. They also, to the best of my knowledge, only rely on it for pas which is much more lenient and not for bishul.
Hello99: Unless they changed the rules since I recently worked as a Mashgiach, the OU says pilot lights are fine for Bishul.
And Health: We assume the reason we eat “Chodosh” is because of the Bach or one of the other Poskim, not the Rama’s “interesting’ Sfek Sfeka. I have to brush up on the rules of Sfek Sfeka (which are ridiculously complicated; see the incredibly long Shach in I believe Yoreh Deah 110), but “Is it really Chameshes Minim” and “If this is one of the Assur Minim, is this specific product Yoshon” should work.
The OU accepts pilot lights as a tziruf or b’shaas hadchak. They do NOT accept a lightbulb.
“Is it 5 minim?” does not cut it as a “safek”. It is merely speculation of certain historians and NOT an accepted safek in Halacha.
Hello: It’s not only historians. There is at least one very big Posek from the past 100 years with a Ta’ana on each of the 5 Minim.
Did he rule that one may never make the berachos of mezonos and hamotzi or on eating matza? If fact, how would he allow Kiddush either, as it will always be ??? ????? ??????
Or did he merely observe a “ta’ana”, but leave the Halacha unchanged that the 5 species we know are considered dagan? In which case, there is essentially no safek.
Hello: I apologize. I did not mean to imply that one Posek raised a question about all of them. My point was you can find at least one Posek who would not make Hamotzi on each of the 5 grains. There are many by oats nowadays. I do not recall who said what, but if I am not mistaken Rav Unterman and Rav Hertzog had the issues with spelt and rye. I do not recall who raised questions about wheat and barley but I remember that it was more than just historians.
Regardless, I was just saying that if you would assume that the poster’s Sfek Sfeka above should work. I am not Makpid on Yoshon for other reasons that I mentioned earlier in this thread. And your questions are exactly why I wrote my aforementioned “Purim halachah” years ago. As I also said above, there is nothing wrong with assuming that the 5 grains are really the five grains and that I would never tell someone who cannot tolerate gluten that they cannot make Hamotzi and Bentsch on oats, which is the most questionable of the 5.
As I said before the mishna berura 489 says lchatchila one should not be somech on the bach and the rama because they are heteirim and in the biur halachah he says whatever it is easier to keep one should keep.
Even the Bach commences his heter with stating that the minhag is to be meikil, and the Teshuvos HaRosh also only proposes his sfek sfeika as a limud zechus. In their days, yashan was almost totally unavailable, and there were few alternatives to the dietary staple of grain.
hacham: look again, the Biur Halacha says nothing of the sort.
His conclusion is “Therefore, it is certainly proper and appropriate to be concerned for all the above and to refrain at least from certain chadash”.
Hello99- what I meant is the biur Halacha says whatever is easy to keep one should keep like his example is chitim which is easy to be careful on etc. See my first post on this topic. Btw I am not hacham I am chacham and I got this name first.
hello 99 -“Since then, the majority of wheat in the market, except for winter wheat, is Chadash.
Furthermore, the Rema’s heter, really from Teshuvos HaRosh is based on an intersting sfek sfeika. Since today this information can be easily clarified, as Rav Herman does, one may no longer rely on a sfek sfeika (which anyways is not relevant when the majority is Chadash).”
There is a big agenda here in America to push Vaday Yoshon. Some Frum companies have made millions on this. I don’t know where you got your statistics from, but it seems that it comes from the group whose agenda was to push the Vaday Yoshon on e/o!
I decided to look up the statistics myself and not rely on MDG who brings data from 1996. Let me say that I think the problem with the Rema’s (or the Teshuvos HaRosh) Sfek Sfeika is that it is really only one Safek, of whether this is Yoshon or not. But even so, the MB brings Achronim whom say – that you can be Mekil in things that mostly were planted in Chodesh Nissan (or before) (and harvested after Pesach).
Acc. to the USDA most of the wheat produced in this country this year and many previous years is winter wheat. This automatically makes most wheat in this country Yoshon. Even what you eat in the winter months most of it has to be Yoshon. It’s not possible or very unlikely that we ate up most of the winter wheat. Like I just posted, the MB has no problem being Meikil on where there is a Rov. His screaming(both in MB and BH) is on the other Heterim. Oats I looked up takes about 11 months to grow, so again you have a Rov that it’s Yoshon. Rye is mostly a winter crop.
Durum wheat which becomes pasta, you can say the final product is not mostly wheat (there are many ingredients) and even if it is – maybe it’s not all Durum (Chodosh) but mixed with other Yoshon grains (which they do a lot of times). So you would have a Sfek Sfeika. Barley you would have to come onto – is it called from the Chameshes Mini Dogon which you had it out with Sam about.
I’ll admit the last two aren’t such great Heterim, but I personally don’t care because I dislike eating them. I really try not to eat pasta and/or barley. I hate when people put barley in the Chulent!
Hello99, I owe you an apology, I did get my facts wrong. In 1972 the Russian wheat crop failed and they bought much if not all of the US wheat surplus. So indeed, before 1972 , wheat was all probably yoshon, but after 1972, it was not.
Living in Israel, I have no problems with chodosh, and I do not know what the current state is in Chutz La’aretz. I will reitterate what I believe, and that is the klal should make the utmost effort to obtain yoshon, as the Bach’s heter would not have been issued today.
Adding to my last comment: I went to the USDA ERS table of the following:
Wheat Data: Yearbook Tables
Wheat: Supply and disappearance
And for the last 3 years and for many years before that, there was always a surplus supply in millions of bushels every year, even after exporting whatever we exported. So much for no surplus in this country.
I just checked the surplus for Durum, rye, barley & oats. They all had surpluses every year carried over to the next year, even after all the imports and exports.
why would rov help by chodosh it is a davar shyesh lo matirin? also after a certain point there is a reyusa against the rov
I don’t think so Chacham. This isn’t a standard case of Davar Sheyeish Lo Matirin. Normally, it wouldn’t Bateil because you can just wait. But here the question is if it’s Muttar already or not. It’s not like there’s a Rov and Miyut and we’re being Mevatel the Miyut. We’re using the Rov to assume that all the grain we get isn’t Chodosh. It’s acting more like a Chazaka than a Rov. Because if we were being Mevateil the Chodosh then you would need 60 (100? Need to bursh up on my Mishnayos Zeraim) times the amount, not just Rov.
Chacham -“also after a certain point there is a reyusa against the rov”
Not possible. For example with wheat even if you eat more than the surplus of last year, which almost never happens – still most of the wheat of this year is from a winter crop, also Yoshon, so you will never lose that Rov. And when you eat, even in other things (not wheat) you just don’t eat from the Yoshon, you eat from all of it, so I don’t possibly see how you can ever lose that Rov, if you started with a surplus. Now I see why having a basic knowledge of Math (like high school Math) is needed in life. We have a whole movement of Yoshon and I don’t see why!
Chacham, Sam2-
????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????
???? ??? ???? (???? ????) ??”? ??? ???? ?”?
Health: I have no financial interest in pushing Yashan nor am I foolish enough to rely on statistics from organizations that do.
Winter wheat and Durham wheat have very different characteristics, and you cannot combine them to create a rov. Winter wheat is low gluten and creates a crunchy product, while Durham wheat is the opposite. You are correct that any product containing solely winter wheat, such as pretzels would not be an issue with its flour content. However, pretzels usually contain malt which is a chodosh concern. Most products contain a blend and at least partially consist of Durham wheat, which is primarily chodosh. If that portion is at least 1/60 of the product, it may be assur min haTorah.
You are correct that rye is not a problem.
You are completely incorrect regarding oats. According to the USDA, North Dakota grows the most oats of all states. They plant between May 2-17 and harvest Aug 11-27, just over 3 months. Early May is usually after Pesach, and it will all be chodosh.
Barley is a big problem, and avoiding it in cholent will not solve your problem. Beer is derived from barley, as is malt. Many products today contain malt, including corn flakes, rice crispies, rice cakes, pretzels etc.
Avoiding pasta is also inconsequential, as most pastries contain more than 2% Durham wheat.
In conclusion, neither the heter of the Rosh nor that of the Bach is relevant to permit chodosh today.
The Rosh assumes a sfek sfeika, but today the majority of spring wheat is chodosh and does not count as a safek. Additionally, since it can be clarified, one may not rely on a sfek sfeika when the truth can be determined.
I met (what I consider) a well learned Lubavitcher that told me that the Baal Shem Tov holds of the Bach in regards to Yashan.
Hello99, it is sad that you are actually impressed by someone admitting they were wrong. Intellectual honesty is the basis of any discussion. As an aside, not all of my posts make it through the filter, so you do not hear everything I have to say.
I think there is a way to check the manufacturing date on a given product, which goes a long way in determining whether it has a chashash chodosh. I checked a few cereal boxes and could not decipher it. Maybe you know how to do it.
Chacham: I apologize, both for misstating your name as well as for misunderstanding your intent.
MDG: The way I have always heard the story with the Baal Shem Tov is that he was excited that the Bach finally found a limud zechus on the behavior of the populace. Not that it is necessarily the accepted Halacha
old man: it is sad, but the reality is that many people are lacking that intellectual honesty.
I fully understand. Many of my posts are also inexplicably deleted. If you repost them, or sometimes rephrase them, it often works.
I have gotten in the habit of writing in MS Word, and then pasting to the CR. That way I save my work if it needs to be reposted.
Rav Herman’s Yashan guide explains many of the dates on products.
Also, if you leave out email addresses and links they are more likely to get posted.
Why would a link make a post more likely to be deleted? How can people back up what they say if they can’t provide sources?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rules-of-the-ywn-coffee-room-please-read
mod: my response to Chacham contained no link, and was not accepted the first time I submitted it Thursday.
I also notice that many posts containing links are accepted, I don’t understand why the automated email to receive the yashan guide should not be
i think reb moshe told herman that the chodosh guide is only for people makpid on yoshon otherwise it is a safek efshar lverurei. so good job mods for blocking the email
chacham: I assume you are joking. Even with the mods blocking it it is still efshar l’verurei.
That is very funny 🙂
i am joking but reb moshe really said not to give it to people who are not makpid
hello99 -“The Rosh assumes a sfek sfeika, but today the majority of spring wheat is chodosh and does not count as a safek.”
Since we now have a new topic on Cholov Yisroel, I figured I’d bring up this topic again.
I already have my fingers in my ears -before you start screaming.
I got a chance to look up a few things before this post.
I want to say -what is the reason you need Rov? The Rov over here tells us whether you can use the Safek or not. So since the Rov of the 5 types of Dogon from this year is Chodosh, the Safek from this year isn’t considered a Safek. But the Safek of this year or last is.
But in America, there is another Sfek Sfeka. One is – is it from last year or this year. Even from this year, maybe it’s from imported Dogon, which can be Yoshon. I can’t say Rov because it comes from a lot of places, but most likely it is Yoshon.
“maybe it’s from imported Dogon”
I beleive I saw that mentioned in the B”Y
Hello: That Rama is even stranger that his Sfek Sfeka. We usually assume that an Issur D’Oraisa which is Mefurash Bikrah you cannot say Mutav… (I actually don’t have a source for that; my Rebbe in 8th grade said it so I assume it’s true.)
hello99 -“As the Shach writes in rule #33 of Sfek Sfeikos, any Sakek that is more likely Assur than Muttar does not count.”
True, he does say this but I’m learning that none of the general rules of Sfek Sfeka apply by Chodosh. They ask what is the difference between Chodosh and Taaruvos, which is Ossur in a Sfek Sfeka? Because by Dogon, you don’t have to be eating Chodosh, while Taaruvos you definitely are eating Treif. It can’t be like you that as long as there is Vaday Chodosh, it is Ossur, which is determined by the Rov. Because simply if we looked at Dogon that you want to eat, it always has Chodosh (in the pile), even in the Sfek Sfeka of the Rema. So what will you tell me -go after the Rov. But the Schach says YD 110 #25 if something is a Dovor Ossur, a Rov is never Matter it. So therefore if Chodosh has the same Dinim of regular Sfek Sfeka, it would never be Mutter because it’s almost impossible to say that there isn’t Chodosh in the pile.
So my Sfek Sfeka is you don’t look at the pile, you look at what you are eating. Is this from this year or from last year? Last year would be Yoshon, so you could be eating only Yoshon. Second safek -if from this year, maybe it’s from imported which is most likely Yoshon. If the Rov would tell you, for example on the Safek of is it before Pesach or after – that it’s mostly after, then this becomes an invalid Safek.
Sam: I think that if you would see the Rashba in Beitza daf 30 (which is the original source, it is brought in Shulchan Aruch OC 608:2 in the Rema)or the Mishna Berura 608:6 you would understand.
Because if it would, then the Rema L’shitoso would have to hold Dogon is never Mutter even in a Sfek Sfeka. He argues with the Mechaber in YD 110. Also see this Schach says YD 110 #25 if something is a Dovor Ossur, a Rov is never Matter it.
“The Rosh is clearly referring to a situation where the wheat from each source was kept separate, but it was impossible to determine what that source was.”
Please copy and paste. Also just because the Rema gets his Heter from the Rosh, doesn’t mean he holds exactly like him.
As far as Shem Echad, please quote the whole words inside and copy and paste.
“It is all one single Safeik of this year or last.”
Not necessarily, you can say the imported wheat was from this year and planted 3 days before Pesach.
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