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Health: I don’t know who the Debrecener Rov is, but there is no way you can Mattir Amirah L’Akum just for Tzorech Gadol. For a Choleh She’ein Bo Sakanah the Ramban says it’s Muttar and the Achronim mostly (sort of) stick with that. But for any Tzorech Gadol? That’s a tremendous Chiddush and would seem to be Mattiring an Issur D’Rabannan to me.
Sam2 -He was a Heimishe Poisek and a contemporary to R’ Moshe zt’l. He lived in BP. He wrote Shaalos OoTeshuvos “Baer Moshe”. Whether you think it’s Ossur or not, he is s/o you can be Somieach on! Ask your Rabbi (R. Schacter?) about him.
More or less, you can’t. I have no idea who you are talking about, but I’m not comfortable posting that you don’t respect a certain rabbinical figure. You say it is for reasons you don’t want to post. Well, I’d be a lot more comfortable approving it if you did tell us why. At least then we could judge it by what it is. -95
Fair enough. I saw many of his T’shuvos and, aside from the fact that there were a good number where I didn’t find his P’sakim compelling, was very put off by his lack of respect for other Poskim, most notably R’ Moshe. I didn’t want to post the reason why because I thought it would be more respectful that way, not less.
The Psakim I quoted comes from Piskei Hilchos Shabbos Vol. 3 & 4. It has an index. What the Mechaber of this Sefer did was ask a bunch of Shailos to the Debrecener and he gave short answers. A lot of these are printed in the Sefer, but the main part of the Sefer is Hebrew & English – Shailos & Teshuvos. Some of this comes from those Shailos, some comes from the Sefer Baer Moshe, some come from Rav Moshe Feinstein zt’l and some comes from S’A.
These Teshuvos seem to come from the Sefer itself where he doesn’t give any explanations. It could be a lot of this he does have in his Sefer Baer Moshe and it could be there he explains his reasoning. But as far as helping you here -you’re on your own. I don’t know if he talks about Ameira L’acum in Baer Moshe (so I don’t have any idea where it would be) and even if he does I don’t know if he explains his reasoning.
Sam2 -“Fair enough. I saw many of his T’shuvos and, aside from the fact that there were a good number where I didn’t find his P’sakim compelling, was very put off by his lack of respect for other Poskim, most notably R’ Moshe.”
If you are talking about the Debrecener -you should know he was a Baal Plukta of Rav M. Feinstein.
Just want to see something – Do you or your immediate family use timers on Shabbos to turn on & off air conditioners & the like?
Health: We try to avoid it out of respect for R’ Moshe’s opinion. And no, we’re not relying on the Be’er Moshe (or anyone else). We’re relying on the fact that it’s only a Chumra according to R’ Moshe. (And if R’ Moshe wrote that T’shuvah again today he would probably allow air conditioners as well because almost everyone does it and it has nothing to do with business.) And we definitely wouldn’t use a timer for anything to do with business. Would the Be’er Moshe allow that?
Sam2 -“Would the Be’er Moshe allow that?”
To be honest, I don’t know. I don’t recall that Rav Moshe said using a timer for A.C. is a Chumra -I could be wrong. Could you quote him?
I heard that the Velt didn’t follow him on everything. They sometimes did like the Poiskim who argue on him like the Debrecener.
Health: Correct, the Velt does not quite follow R’ Moshe for everything. It’s O”C 4:60, if I’m not mistaken. He clearly says it’s a Chumra because if we allow timers then you could run an entire factory via timer on Shabbos. He also says electric lights are Muttar because everyone was already Noheg to use them.
sam: “We’re relying on the fact that it’s only a Chumra according to R’ Moshe”
It’s not. He holds it is Amira l’Akum
healt: I don’t know if I can access PHS, and there is no Be’er Moshe locally either. However, what you are quoting in his name is basicaly against Shulchan Aruch
Sam2 -“Health: Correct, the Velt does not quite follow R’ Moshe for everything. It’s O”C 4:60, if I’m not mistaken. He clearly says it’s a Chumra because if we allow timers then you could run an entire factory via timer on Shabbos. He also says electric lights are Muttar because everyone was already Noheg to use them.”
He clearly says it’s Ossur -I knew you were wrong. We Pasken like the Debrecener & others who held R’ Moshe’s Psak was a Chumra!
Copied & Pasted from Hebrewbooks.org:
??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???
???? ???? *??? ?*????? ????? *?? ????*??? ????
??*?? ??? ?????? (????????) ???? ?*? ????? ????
???? ???, ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?????????
??? ?????? ??, *??? ????? ????? ??*???? ???? ??,
??? ???? ??? ????? ?*??? ????? ?? ????? ?????
??*????, ????? *?? ???*??, ?????? ???? ?????
??? ????? ?????? ?*??? ??? ???? ??????
All the * -the Nun is supposed to be a Chof!
hello99 -“However, what you are quoting in his name is basicaly against Shulchan Aruch”
I happenned to find this in the same Teshuva I pasted to Sam!
The Debrecener held this was a Tzorech Godol also -having bathroom light. If having a light in a bathroom is a Tzorech Godol having the main course on Shabbos day for sure is! (To me this is Posut! I don’t need the Debrecener to spell out every single case where it is a Tzorech Godol!)
?????? ????? ???? ???’ ? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????
????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ????
???? ????
Rav Moshe still only meant it as a Chumra, I think. He couched it in very, very strong terms because of the potential abuses he mentined, but Rav Moshe knew that he did not have the power to create a real Issur D’Rabannan. It can only be a Chumra.
He holds it is Amira l’Akum
He says ????.
Rav Moshe still only meant it as a Chumra, I think.
It seems to me that he considered it assur, but not necessarily because of amira l’akum, rather, because of zilzul Shabbos.
Sam2 -“Rav Moshe still only meant it as a Chumra, I think. He couched it in very, very strong terms because of the potential abuses he mentined, but Rav Moshe knew that he did not have the power to create a real Issur D’Rabannan. It can only be a Chumra.”
Sorry perhaps you should reread it. He says it’s definitely Ossur. He just said they would specifically Assur this if they were around just like they Assured Ameira L’acum. But he says this alone is Ossur right now because it falls under Zizul Shabbos. So don’t confuse that he is making a new Issur D’rabbonon -he knows he can’t do that. He holds it’s Ossur right now! So if you want to use time clocks -you have to be Somieach on the Debrecener or s/o similar!
Look I’m not going to look up all these Achronim just to prove you wrong -I’ll take your word at it. But I don’t know what R. Moshe says over there in OC 3, but above (which I quoted) he uses this Rema to Matir timers for electric lights. So obviously R. Moshe held you could Pasken like this Rema, at least sometimes. So I have R. Moshe & the Debrecener that Matir -that is good enough for me. These are Basrah Poskim from the last generation. And I’m sure they knew all the Shittos at least as well as you. And still R. Moshe was Matir in at least one instance & the Debrecener in many instances.
C’mon, it’s in Vol. 4 which wasn’t even printed till 1990. He has quite a few examples where he is Matir Ameira L’acum by a D’oraysa!
Actually, your quote is selective and out of context. Reb Moshe in 4:60 was only lenient on a Shabbos clock, not a true Amira l’Akum. Furthermore, he explicitly differentiates between lights where there is already a Minhag to be lenient, and he is not capable of forbidding it, and other appliances. He clearly writes that it is wrong to rely on the Itur and the Minhag in Europe was to be stringent.
He would NOT permit your crockpot where there was no Minhag to be lenient.
“The Psakim I quoted comes from Piskei Hilchos Shabbos Vol. 3 & 4” “C’mon, it’s in Vol. 4 which wasn’t even printed till 1990”
You also mentioned vol3, which is where I checked. I didn’t see the context of his rulings, but you mentioned bathroom lights. When the generator broke in my son’s Yeshiva, HaRav Shteinman ruled that bathroom and stairwell lights are Pikuach Nefesh. If the Debretziner agreed, his Heter would not be relevent to a typical Tzorech Gadol.
When the generator broke in my son’s Yeshiva, HaRav Shteinman ruled that bathroom and stairwell lights are Pikuach Nefesh.
He allowed a Yid to turn them on? And if so, would he also allow it in a private home? Or (much more likely) perhaps a dormitory setting is different, so if the Debriciner was mattir in the home, there would have to be a different reason. I haven’t seen the teshuva, but if he was mattir, it may have been in a situation where there were small children, who have a din of choleh, so amira l’akum would be permitted.
hello99 -“Actually, your quote is selective and out of context. Reb Moshe in 4:60 was only lenient on a Shabbos clock, not a true Amira l’Akum. Furthermore, he explicitly differentiates between lights where there is already a Minhag to be lenient, and he is not capable of forbidding it, and other appliances. He clearly writes that it is wrong to rely on the Itur and the Minhag in Europe was to be stringent.”
You are misconstruing it.
Quote: “And it’s Mashma (from the Rema) that in a case of Tzorech Godol it’s (Ameira L’acum) is Mutter. So even though it’s fitting to be Machmir and in our community in Europe we were Machmir, BUT since there are many that were Matir (Ameira L’acum) and this was the Minhag in many places -I’m not going to Assur time clocks where they are already using them.”
You see clearly – he didn’t have a problem with people being Somieach on Ameira L’Acum B’mokom Tzorech Godol. He personally had the Minhag not to be Soimeach on this Rema, but he didn’t think people who were Somieach on it were being Oiver an Issur D’rabbonon. If he did, he never would have used it to be Matir time clocks. He held at the beginning to use time clocks (on Shabbos) is definitely Ossur. So what changed by lights? Why can time clocks be used to turn on & off lights? Because some Avaryonim acc. to you, used a Heter from the Rema which you can’t be Somieach on? So you see clearly R. Moshe didn’t want to use this heter himself, but he used it to be Matir time clocks. I’ll repeat – he must of held there is something to this Heter and that’s why he said you can use time clocks for lights.
edited
Mods why did you delete my post?
sorry, it is part of our crackdown on the tone in the CR. I’ve been deleting posts all day. I’ll try to clean that one up, so you don’t have to type it again
Mods -Ok -I understand that you changed the first line and removed the last. They weren’t rank outs, just not upto the level of the new CR perhaps. It’s better to do this than to trash the whole Shtickle Torah. So thanks from all who will appreciate my Shitckle Torah!
yes, but it takes a long time to do that, so my personal new hard line policy is to just delete. If you are mesupak if it is mean, don’t write it.
Health: Rav Moshe is very clear that if it were up to him timers wouldn’t be Muttar even for lights. He only says it’s Muttar because there was already a Minhag to do it and he says they must have been Noheg for some reason but he doesn’t know what it is. If he thought the Minhag was to rely on the Rama, he would have said so.
Sam2 -“Health: Rav Moshe is very clear that if it were up to him timers wouldn’t be Muttar even for lights.”
I don’t understand what you are saying. He said he is Matir, not s/o else!
He only says it’s Muttar because there was already a Minhag to do it and he says they must have been Noheg for some reason but he doesn’t know what it is.”
He knows the reason -he just said so -the Rema. And again he said at the beginning timers are Ossur and Now HE is saying (noone else) that timers for lights are Mutter!
“If he thought the Minhag was to rely on the Rama, he would have said so.”
This doesn’t make any sense to me -Please explain.
Health: Assuming I remember the T’shuvah correctly (I think I do, though it’s always possible that I’m wrong) he explicitly says that there must be some reason for lights being Muttar because that’s what’s Nahug but he doesn’t know what that reason is. If Rav Moshe thought the reason was his aforementioned Rama, he would have said so. And it’s very clear that Rav Moshe is only Mattir lights because it was already Nahug, not because he thought there was some given reason for it. If it wasn’t Nahug already, Rav Moshe wouldn’t have said they were Muttar.
“You see clearly – he didn’t have a problem with people being Somieach on Ameira L’Acum B’mokom Tzorech Godol”
no, he did “it’s fitting to be Machmir”
“He personally had the Minhag not to be Soimeach on this Rema”
again, no “in Europe we were Machmir”, it was everyone’s minhag
“he used it to be Matir time clocks”
also, no “I’m not going to Assur time clocks”
he wasn’t matir, just kept quiet
“he must of held there is something to this Heter and that’s why he said you can use time clocks for lights”
again, didn’t allow, just not asser, and even that, only lights. your crockpot where there is no minhag, he would clearly asser!!! also, real amira l’akum, he would asser, just clocks not!
Sam2
Health: Assuming I remember the T’shuvah correctly (I think I do, though it’s always possible that I’m wrong) he explicitly says that there must be some reason for lights being Muttar because that’s what’s Nahug but he doesn’t know what that reason is.”
Where does he say this? Not in my Teshuva.
“If Rav Moshe thought the reason was his aforementioned Rama, he would have said so.”
He did and that’s what Mekol Mokom means!
“And it’s very clear that Rav Moshe is only Mattir lights because it was already Nahug, not because he thought there was some given reason for it. If it wasn’t Nahug already, Rav Moshe wouldn’t have said they were Muttar.”
But my point is -if this Minhag based on the Rema was a Minhag Shtus -how in the world could he be Matir time clocks for lights?
hello99 -“no, he did “it’s fitting to be Machmir”
Sorry this isn’t the same as saying it’s a Minhag Shtus and it’s Ossur Gomor. A Chumra -is just that!
“again, no “in Europe we were Machmir”, it was everyone’s minhag”
And again – A Chumra -is just that!
“he wasn’t matir, just kept quiet”
The Piskei Hilchos Shabbos doesn’t learn like you and I don’t know anybody who does! E/o says R. Moshe was Matir time clocks by lights!
“your crockpot where there is no minhag, he would clearly asser!!!”
Who said?
“also, real amira l’akum, he would asser, just clocks not!”
Again who said? He might be Machmir like he says in the Teshuva over here, but he wouldn’t hold it’s Ossur Gomor!
If you would have asked Reb Moshe your Shaila if you could ask a Goy to turn on your crockpot, he would have answered NO!
It was a dormitory and may have been exclusively so. The point is that each case has different factors and without knowing the precise circumstances the Debretziner was Matir, we cannot postulate a Klal that he opposed all the Poskim I listed.
mods: thanks for preserving the positive tone so everyone can enjoy the atmosphere of the CR
Yes, you are.
No, it’s very relevant.
“If you would have asked Reb Moshe your Shaila if you could ask a Goy to turn on your crockpot, he would have answered NO!”
Well I think, if he was here -this is what he’d answer:
I personally wouldn’t tell the goy to turn it on, but many have been Maikil like the Rema in cases of Tzorech Godol to do Ameira L’acum!
hello99 -“HaRav Shteinman ruled that bathroom and stairwell lights are Pikuach Nefesh. If the Debretziner agreed, his Heter would not be relevent to a typical Tzorech Gadol.”
There is absolutely no comparison to the case of Ameira L’acum. At least there is one Shitta in the Rema that says Mutter, even if acc. to you -you can’t be Somieach on. Where does anyone Matir the Issur D’rabbonon that you mentioned above? Therefore R. Shteinman had to come onto Pikuach Nefesh to push this Shvus away.
“The point is that each case has different factors and without knowing the precise circumstances the Debretziner was Matir, we cannot postulate a Klal that he opposed all the Poskim I listed.”
The reason you don’t know why the Debrecener was Matir was because you didn’t look it up. He says why you can tell the Goy to open the bathroom light in your house in ???? ?”? in the Hebrew section. Since you claim you have no possible access to this Sefer -I’ll tell you his reason – because of Kovod Habrious!
But he says/brings many cases of Ameira L’acum that he is Matir in situations of Tzorech Godol. Check it out!
Hello99,
So I figured, but your post was unclear. Thanks for the clarification.
Health,
You can’t extrapolate oneg Shabbos (cholent) from kavod habrios.
DY -“Health, You can’t extrapolate oneg Shabbos (cholent) from kavod habrios.”
I didn’t. You didn’t read my whole post:
“But he says/brings many cases of Ameira L’acum that he is Matir in situations of Tzorech Godol. Check it out!”
Health,
Is it in Be’er Moshe? I don’t have Piskei Hilchos Shabbos.
health: “many have been Maikil like the Rema in cases of Tzorech Godol to do Ameira L’acum”
can you name a single one, other than your supposed Debritziner?
hello99 -“health: “many have been Maikil like the Rema in cases of Tzorech Godol to do Ameira L’acum”
can you name a single one, other than your supposed Debritziner?”
That quote is what I think R. Moshe would say, I didn’t say it.
So since he said it -go ask him.
why do you think Reb Moshe would lie and say “many have been Maikil like the Rema”?
hello99 -“why do you think Reb Moshe would lie and say “many have been Maikil like the Rema”?”
I don’t think he would lie -I think that’s what he would say. I think that there are many, but since I don’t know as much as him -I don’t know who they are!
Health: “I think that there are many”
I’m afraid you are incorrect. There are VERY few Poskim who agree with this Rema. This kind of speculation is part of the risk in Paskenening your own Shailos when unqualified to do so.
So, based on the Teshuvos printed in IGM, it is clear that he would have Paskened you may NOT ask a Goy to turn on your crockpot.
Health: “I’ll tell you his reason – because of Kovod Habrious!”
Thank you. Since it is well known that Kavod HaBrios permitts many Issurim d’Rabannan and is stronger than a regular Tzorech Gadol which does not, it is clear that the Debritziner would not have permitted your case either.
He actually writes “???? ??????”. It seems, though, that ????? ???? he actually holds like the ??”?. See ??”? ??”? ?’ ? ???? ?”?.
However, in our case, it would clearly be ????, as per the ??”? in ??”? ???? ? and ?”? ?? ?”? ?”?.
??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????
DY – “However, in our case, it would clearly be ????, as per the ??”? in ??”? ???? ? and ?”? ?? ?”? ?”?.
??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????”
The case you brought down isn’t talking about Tzorech Godol, like in my case. Even in your case the Biur Halacha brings down an instance where it’s Mutter! You got mixed up.
hello99 -“I’m afraid you are incorrect. There are VERY few Poskim who agree with this Rema.”
So change “many” to “some”!
“This kind of speculation is part of the risk in Paskenening your own Shailos when unqualified to do so.
So, based on the Teshuvos printed in IGM, it is clear that he would have Paskened you may NOT ask a Goy to turn on your crockpot.”
He says he was Machmir. This means it’s Mutter but some have a Chumra -not to!
hello99 – “Thank you.”
De Nada Senor!
“Since it is well known that Kavod HaBrios permitts many Issurim d’Rabannan and is stronger than a regular Tzorech Gadol which does not, it is clear that the Debritziner would not have permitted your case either.”
You didn’t read my post to DY:
“But he says/brings many cases of Ameira L’acum that he is Matir in situations of Tzorech Godol. Check it out!”
(Not just Kovod Habrious!)
The case you brought down isn’t talking about Tzorech Godol, like in my case.
Your pots of food got cold = ???? ????.
DaasYochid – No. The Tzorech Godol is – this is the main course. There won’t be a main course without the Goy turning on the crockpot. In the case you brought -the guy just wants to warm up Stam a pot, nothing to do with any particular Tzorech, let alone a Tzorech Godol!
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