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SinglePicky, I can’t say, but the young women I know who did marry men who were previously married may have complicated their lives, but did not compromise.
Tzippy: Grassroots movement to delay dating untill 22???
I curious which country, city, organization are you refereeing to. It’s not something that I’m familiar with, and to the best of my knowledge it’s not something that NASI has encouraged
Singlepicky:
Great question:
I thing the answer should be based on the age at which the pool of available single men becomes significantly smaller than the pool of avail single women in any specific circle.
I’m afraid to post what age i believe is the appropriate age but suffice it to say that it’s much younger than 30. That’s not to say that a 27 year old girl should run to date a 45 year old guy.
I line i recently heard and it makes a lot of sense is as follows. when you are 24 date like you are 28. When you are 27 date like you are 32. It will give you the best chance to make sure that you are not single at reach 28/32.
The implication is for each and every individual to apply to their own personal situation.
I saw a letter sent to an oot community about a visiting shadchan who will only be working for the 21 y.o’s and up now.
If girls don’t want boys who are younger than 22, they will have to wait till 21, 22.
Perhaps the number 21 would be better. Combing through the archives, i do have to get to work now, but there was mention on the You can help solve the crisis thread about 19 y.o’s being passed over in favor of older girls. And boys prefer girls who can support them already,i.e. have their masters.
Sorry, I’m in a rush, wondering if anyone else has picked up on this.
“And boys prefer girls who can support them already,i.e. have their masters.”
And in my circles it is vice versa. Girls prefer boys who can support THEM already, i.e., have decent jobs earning a sufficient parnassah so that the girls can raise their own children who will no doubt, B”EH, come quickly, without having to leave them with a
possibly not even Jewish nanny or housekeeper (which costs a lot of money from that paycheck the girls might make, with or without a masters). It is amazing how opposite these hashkafos are within the frum community.
Tzippi: I don’t know what community you are referring to.
However allow me to explain the relatively ovbiuous thought procees behind such a plan.
They have many many single girls. They are bringing in a shadchan to meet the girls. The shadchan can not focus on all the girls at once. Sounds like it makes a lot of sense to have the shadchan only meet the slightly older girls. They are not preventing the younger girls from dating, they are simply trying to get extra help for the slightly older girls.
Seems like it makes sense to me.
And yes I am a big believer (as are many many R”Y) in giving boys reasons why slightly older girls are objectively better matches for them than the very new sem girls. Is that preventing anyone from getting married??, or just helping out the slightly older??
Why are the slightly older girls – and people don’t just mean 20, they mean older than the boys are – objectively better matches for the boys? Please spell it out.
Then explain why younger boys are objectively better matches for the girls.
Please understand, I’m not at all against helping the slightly older. I do want to know what the GIRLS should be looking for, and why they should be finding it in boys their age (or younger).
They mean slightly older girls. They are objectively better matches because they are more established in terms of parnasah, more equipped to deal with the realities of life etc etc.
To the best of my knowledge there are only two objective benefit to marrying a slightly older girl vs a girl slightly younger.
1. Almana Factor-women tend to live longer than men and thus if the wife is younger (and especially if she is significantly younger) she will in all likelihood be a almana at the end of her life. Sad but true. visit any assisted living or nursing home at she the female/male ratio.
2. The second reason relates to inyanei even haezer and is not for public discussion.
As for what the girls should be looking for. If you haven’t figured it out yet, the girls are NOT in the drivers seat so long as the numbers are stacked against them.
AZ, sometime this year (sorry, don’t remember which parsha) Rabbi Reisman devoted a great deal of one of his motzei Shabbos shiurim to the historical imperative of treating bnos Yisroel with dignity. I don’t buy that the girls aren’t in the drivers’ seat. If they’re not, we are dealing with major cracks in the system – how can we expect the next dor to build batei neeman if they’re built on anything less than 100% ehrlichkeit from all sides?
Leaving all this aside, do you think we are doing our boys a service by sending them into marriage unprepared to deal with the realities of life, including but not limited to parnasa? I think you mentioned you have younger kids. Try to project yourself ten years from now and the kind of hadracha you plan on giving your daughters AND sons (if you don’t have both yet,iy”H, and may you have a happy full home and menucha, seriously).
Tzippi:
1. How many time do I need to explain the math. Its simple market economics-not Middos. Change the numbers and watch how fast the “middos” change.
2. I keep my discussion to shidduch crisis/age gap etc. related topics.
tzippi, men have been in the drivers seat in the arena of shidduchim for time immemorial through Jewish history. (One example is the dowry that is halachicly recognized, accepted and practiced for ages.) That “girls aren’t in the drivers’ seat” does not indicate any deviation from 100% ehrlichkeit.
To Volvie: yes, the dowry was practiced through the doros and you know what? Girls didn’t get married in Europe. It also skipped a generation or two in America. We are encouraging girls to do something radical and that is be the primary support of the family, go out from the penima to an unprecedented degree. Maybe we have to rethink dowries. And I’m not a numbers cruncher, but I do have to wonder, was the dowry demanded 100 or more years ago equal to the five year plan (minimum 1k a month = $60k) or apartments in E”Y that are nearly standard now? Should people support kids – not help out here or there but a hefty chunk of the budget – if they can’t pay full tuition for their minor children or anywhere close to it?
And AZ, the way I follow the reasoning is we have to close the gap, right? Then if there are shidduchim not within the range, is the gap being perpetuated? Do you see mandating marrying within the range as something desirable? If it takes a generation to even the demographics then will this poor behavior continue till then?
Again, I refer people to the Rabbi Reisman shiur referring to the dignity of the bas Yisrael, specifically re shidduchim.
I do want to apologize for shlepping age into this. I do think that some of the issues that dovetail with it also dovetail with the overall thread.
tzippi, Girls didn’t get married in Europe? Or was that a typo? Or perhaps you are saying the same thing as AZ when he maintains that _some_ girls don’t get married in America. Dowries in Europe were often astronomical. Today that is also true. I don’t think there was much change in that area.
Volvie, you’re making a different point than AZ. AZ says that we can talk menschlichkeit once the age gap has improved, irrespective of the historical realities of nadan, etc. I’m still waiting for an answer from that angle, and to a few other questions too.
once the age gap has been significantly alleviated numerous other issues will solve themselves. e.g. (money demands, “mentlichkeit” etc.) they are to a large part a derivative of a unequal market.
With out alleviating the age gap we can keep on straightening the deck chairs on the Titanic…..
AZ, a friend’s 20 y.o. daughter just got engaged to a 24 y.o. Seems like a beautiful shidduch to me. But are they perpetuating the problem? How many in range shidduchim will it take for the age gap to narrow? What do the number crunchers have to say about this? And back to our regularly scheduled thread here, older singles: do they have to marry within the range too to not be perpetuating the problem?
(And I will leave aside your breathtaking underestimation of the middos we can and should aspire to, and that a nisayon should be bringing out. You might be stating a reality, people will behave poorly if they can get away with it, but we ignore that at our peril too. Talk about straightening the deck chairs…)
1. I’m not sure what you want me to respond. a four year age gap causes difficulties for the community at large. For the individuals I’m sure it’s a beautiful shidduch.
AZ: So in your opinion, did a guy who got engaged to a woman 4 years his junior do something wrong, since you assert his marriage “causes difficulties for the community”?
Aint nothing wrong with getting engaged. If he was not open to any suggestions other than those that were four years his junior i would venture to say that he wasn’t to helpful. If he was open to all reasonable ages and what worked out happened to be 4 years his junior then how could anyone fault him.
If boys were open to girls of all reasonable ages (relative to them) and shadchanim gave slight preference to to the slightly older girls, we would see a very very significant reduction in the age gap in a very short period of time.
AZ: I have two follow ups on your response; one sociological and one theological. You feel that “how could anyone fault him” yet previously you maintained that he “causes difficulties for the community” by marrying with a significant age gap. Based upon the societal goal of reducing the age gap, should not every man and woman endeavor to marry within a small age differential (i.e. 1 or 2 years age difference) with at least the same amount of energy as he endeavors to marry someone “attractive”? After all, some people reject many potential marriage prospects due to a perceived insufficiency in the “wow factor” of attractiveness; should not that same person reject – with the same energy he would reject a shidduch for other reasons – potential marriage prospects due to a greater difference in age than, say, 1 or 2 years?
The theological question is regarding your comment that “If boys were open to girls of … slight preference to the slightly older girls, we would see a very very significant reduction in the age gap in a very short period of time.” Is not the clear implication of your comment that by making these changes to accommodate the age gap issue, the net result will be that people will be marrying spouses they would otherwise not have married (hence your point that “we would see a very very significant reduction in the age gap” by taking these measures); yet how can that be implied, considering as we all know that ones “bashert” is decided 40 days prior to his birth (as explained, I believe, in the Gemorah by Rav Yehuda)? Since you say this change will occur within a “very short period of time”, clearly you expect the change to occur with the current (i.e. already born) generation who’s bashert was already decided!
Vovlie:
Scociolocigal:
I did not say HE causes difficulties. I’m saying in general significant age gap shidduchim causes problems for the community. Yes every boy should look to give serious consideration to girls close to his own age. She the letter from the gedolim.
theologciacl: please read the numerous threads where this was discussed extensivly. I will sum it up in one comment.
I have no problem from a emuna standpoint if perhaps someone may get married and raise a wonderful family with someone who may or may not have been his “basherte” (whatever that means-I mean no of us where there 40 days prior to birth)
I have a huge problem believing that G-D wants 10% of our daughters to remain agunos.. Yes I think it is obvious that many many ppl who married with a significant age gap did NOT marry their basherte, because aint no way the ribono shel oilam wanted 10% agunos……
But we have free choice and we have messed up BIG TIME (albeit not intentionally).
Question: how could gedolim give a bracha to someone who marryies a older girl etc. isn’t it possible that someone might date a girl he otherwise wouldn’t have dated and according to your in-accurate logic he would end up marrying a girl who isn’t his basheret???
Or job is to deal with what we can, let’s leave the nistaros to the ribono shel oilam….
AZ, that line about age gap marriages not being basherte: what age gap would you say puts people in this category?
The collective inadvertent action by the community that got us to where we are today, but who cares about “basheret” when it’s a totally philosophical discussion. Doesn’t anyone want to help girls get married??
(FYI- the arizal writes it’s only until 18, so tzippy go figure out who isn’t married to their basherte)
AZ: So to confirm, you do assert that a man should aim to reject girls (to the extent possible) if she is too much younger than him (i.e. 3 or 4 years or more younger.)
AZ: “Or job is to deal with what we can, let’s leave the nistaros to the ribono shel oilam….”
AZ, several lines earlier: “I have a huge problem believing that G-D wants 10% of our daughters to remain agunos..”
and
“aint no way the ribono shel oilam wanted 10% agunos……”
This you do know; I can’t begin to imagine what the nistaros must be.
ulisis: you lost me, pls clarify.
Have I clarified what you were looking for
Ulisis: if you want to know how I “know” that G-D doesn’t want 10% of our girls to be agunos and yet I don’t “know” who everyones “basherete” is it’s pretty simple.
What took place 40 day’s before any of us were born is quite difficult for us to know, and frankly quite irrelevant since it can not impact our lives in any practical way.
To alleviate the pain of people who are part of klal yisroel is our duty. For a community to perpetuate the devastating situation that is (primarly self inflicted) due to lack of action- that’s a travesty.
Correct: I “know” that the ribbon shel oilam doesn’t want the community to act in a way the causes 10% of girls to have not shot. I don’t think that knowledge qualifies as “nistaros”.
AZ: I believe so.
IOW, if a guy is redt a woman 5 or 6 years younger than him, and currently he has no other immediate prospects, the fact she is 5 or 6 years younger than him should be a complete non-issue, correct?
AZ, could you clarify that Arizal reference? I’m not conversant in the Ari. Does that mean that the maximum age difference is 18 years?
And I’m not interested in getting my kids married at any price. I want them to build happy, batei neeman b’Yisrael. I don’t believe that if my daughter marries someone more than 2.2 years older than she that she’s ruining it for the rest of the world and committing some sort of avlah.
tzippi: The arizal writes that once a boy is past 18 the bas kol of 40 days before he was born no longer applies.
Tzippi: I don’t think I have commented once in this forum re: who girls should look for. The girls (by and large) are in postion to make such chesbonos.
volvie: the boy should ask his rebbi that question.
AZ: What if his Rebbe doesn’t hold of the age gap issue?
And what is YOUR opinion to my preceding question? You’ve expressed many other opinions vis-a-vis the age gap issue, why avoid this one?
I’ve heard from Gedolim shlita that the maximum age differential for a shidduch (as a general rule) should not exceed 10 years between the man and the woman.
corretion: the girls (by and large) are in NO position to make such chesbonos
MY opinion is that is a question for a individual and he should get individual guidance. As for some factors that perhaps would come into play.
1. how long has the boy been dating(more than 3 years). the longer he has been dating the more unlikely it is for him to be willing to wait.
2. does he usually have names or does he have some difficulty in shidduchim. (yes there are some boys who have difficulty).
3. is this much younger girls so uniquely appropriate for him or he just hasn’t heard another name in the preceding two day.
and I’m sure if I thought for 5 minutes there would be other factors as well. So as I said it’s a very individualized question.
Vovlie: FYI, I’ve yet to meet a R”Y who doesn’t “hold” of the issue.
The question I’ve come across is
a) to what degree they are willing to advise the yachid in light of the situation facing the rabbim.
b) to what degree they are willing to help the slightly older girls knowing that there may be some younger girl who has the right to date and may have a bit more difficulty because a boy is saying yes to a 23 year old instead of a 19 year.
Those are the touchy issues that I’m aware that the R”Y are grappling with.
AZ: I guess you’ve never met the Lakewood R”Y then? They are maintaining the “freezer” even after the whole NASI awareness.
It seems you feel each yachid marrying with a big age differential has a ripple effect on the rabbim. So it seems even without saying so that this attitude places blame on each yachid who marries with an age gap.
Can you please clarify your point b)? You weren’t clear.
Oh the Lakewood R”Y are very well aware of the NASI awareness. The question is what will get done. It’s their institution and they make the decisions.
Each yachid that marries with a significant difference has a effect on the rabbim- Of course. The question each yachid has to ask himself (his rebbi) is what does that require him to do.
I’m not sure what was unlcear about point b)
AZ: So you are saying that if a man and woman are lock stock and ready to get engaged, but there is say a 3 or 4 year age differential, they must ask a shaila if the age differential means they must give up the shidduch – due to the age differential and its effect on the rabbim.
Correct?
“b) to what degree they are willing to help the slightly older girls knowing that there may be some younger girl who has the right to date”
How does helping the slightly older girl hurt the younger girl who has the right to date?
and may have a bit more difficulty because a boy is saying yes to a 23 year old instead of a 19 year.
How is it a bit more difficult because a boy is saying yes to a 23 year girl old instead of a 19 year girl?
EDITED
point b) well lets see. Boys a has a choice to date girl A (age 23) or girl B (age 19) if he is encouraged to date girl A then girl B just lost out on a date. pretty simple formula.
this goes as well for point C). some R”Y are grappling with this issue. To what degree should they encourage a boy to date girl A knowing full well it will mean less dates for girl B. Clearly the 70 R”Y who signed on the letter as well as many others have stated thier opinion on the matter but as with everything else there are varying degrees.
point b) well lets see. Boys a has a choice to date girl A (age 23) or girl B (age 19) if he is encouraged to date girl A then girl B just lost out on a date. pretty simple formula.
According to your age-gap theory, there are more boys in girl B’s age cohort so she will have plenty more opportunities. She just may have to wait a year or two until they are ready.
hello99, anyone can research any topic and come up with “proof” of lies, thats what lawyers and others do for a living!
Are you saying that the Gedolim erred when they signed in agreement to the contrary?
Hello99: please clarify what article demolished that theory. I actually read the magazine well and failed to notice what you claim it says.
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