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Why bother with the boys at 17 now? Seems its been decided that they should still get married at 22-23 only to girls 21+. The bigger question is, what to do with all the 19-21 year olds we don’t want dating , or will we encourage them all to run after the small minority of 19-21 year old boys who are dating?
Of course I didn’t think that you meant little girls, but the fact is that even little girls are thinking of marriage ALL throughout their childhood. I don’t think girls in school are as introspective as you think they are. Their teachers are too busy telling them what they should be thinking. They are busy telling them about the wonderful world of supporting their husbands in Yeshivah (but not giving them the info on how they will do that whent hey are busy having children, or who will raise those children if they are out working while thier husbands are not). That is not introspection in any way, shape, or form. We know what that is. And if they choose that lifestyle, so be it.
Boys are being encouraged to only sit and learn. They are actively discouraged in many cases, from becoming better-educated secularly, in order to earn a professional parnassah. And you can talk to a boy until you are blue in the face from the time he is three, if you want. He will still mature at the same rate that most normal boys mature, and that is not usually at 17-18. You know who matured early? – the boys who grew up on farms, in the shtetls of Europe, in places where boys AND girls had real responsibilities from the time they were toddlers. They learned how to be mature, because they had to grow up quickly. Our kids today are not mature, I am very sorry to say. They are spoiled and pampered, they are fed unrealistic ideologies about their future, and told that this is the best way for them to live their lives, when in fact it is teaching them to be non-self-reliant and feel a sense of entitlement. This is a whole other discussion, of course, so I am stopping here. Maturity, it is NOT.
Maturity is definitely is not. A signifigant contributor to a “shidduich crisis”, very likely.
hello99:
“This does not seem to be true:”
Contact NASI they will show you the data thas has recently been culled from more than 29 girls HS across the country
Maturity:
their is no data that 23 year old boys marrying 22 year old girls instead of 19 year olds is causing shalom bayis issues. As for when boys start to date-that should be a decision the boys makes together with his parents (and mentor/rebbi) what it shouldn’t depend on is a system for when he comes back from EY. Some will start earlier, some later. All should start when it is right for the individual.
Jphone:
You are on the money!
Encouraging close in age shidduchim in general is the beginning of the answer -NOT the end. Clearly structural change is needed that will have boys dating SLIGHTLY younger and girls SLIGHTLY older. This is being worked on as we speak.
However every little bit helps. and has been helping in the last two years. Say what you want, the facts on the ground indicate that 23 year old boys are far more ready to consider dating girls their own age then they would have done in the past.
THAT is a VEYY positive move, if not a total solution.
As an aside, I’m not sure who your R”Y is, but the letter he signed clearly states “Ha’siba Ha’i’kari” (translated primary cause). Perhaps you didn’t understand what he told you.
I can read english. “Primary cause” is written in larger font and in bold. It is clear what the intention of the ad is.
No, I did not misunderstand what my r”y told me. I wrote what he told me and I did not misunderstand what he wrote. Perhaps you won’t acknowledge that I understand as does my R”Y, that what his signature is signed on to is not what he was led to believe he would be signing.
The primary casue is the system currently in place. The system that encourages boys not to think about the rest of their life until they are 23 and encourages girls to get on with the rest of their life before the ink is dried on their high school diploma.
what the intention of the ad is.???
what are you referring to…
The letter printed was exactly what he signed w/o a change. What advertisement are you reffering to. There is nothing else in the name of the 70 RY other then that letter.
Please clarify.
As to your comment re: the system in place:
you are 100% correct-and it is being worked.
However, unless people understand -as you do- that the system is creating a tragedy of epic proportions, we will not be successful in changing it. First the community needs to be educated as to what the problem is (age gap created by our present system) Then we can focus on solutions.
“The primary casue is the system currently in place. The system that encourages boys not to think about the rest of their life until they are 23 and encourages girls to get on with the rest of their life before the ink is dried on their high school diploma. “
True dat!
The system thus results in hundred more girls than boys entering the shidduch pool each year..
I will agree with AZ’s last statement.
Therefore, unless we figure out a way to change this equation we will not be able to significantly alleviate the crisis?
oomis1105: do you agree with that as well?
You know who matured early? – the boys who grew up on farms, in the shtetls of Europe, in places where boys AND girls had real responsibilities from the time they were toddlers. They learned how to be mature, because they had to grow up quickly.
You know who also matures early? The boys (and girls) who serve in the IDF.
“Therefore, unless we figure out a way to change this equation we will not be able to significantly alleviate the crisis?”
The answer is not for “younger” boys to date “older” girls. The answer is for the “younger” boys really be younger.
“You know who also matures early? The boys (and girls) who serve in the IDF. “
I certainly cannot argue with THAT!!!!! Unfortunately thay are forced to mature much too soon.
I wouldn’t argue it, AZ, but IMO there really is no practical way to change the equation. It has ALWAYS been this way. The SYSTEM needs to change. There have always been more girls than boys, but they eventually managed to get married, for the most part. Nowadays, the problem has reached epic proportions.
jphone:
“The answer is for the “younger” boys really be younger.”
I don’t understand
It is refreshing to see that we have begun to discuss real ideas about how to close the age gap. To be sure- some ideas will be able to be implemented. Some will be rejected by the community and the leaders.
In any event the YWCR has been a tremendous vehicle for putting this issue on the map and hopefully some creative acceptable ideas will come forth.
How’s this for a long term idea, take out a year of either high school (12th grade) or elementary (8th grade) for the boys.
Or girls starting kindergarten a year later.
just some thoughts to munch on….,.
I don’t think there is a short term way to make boys mature at a younger age. You can’t really say that making boys think seriously about marriage will make them mature, at least not if they’re going to be supported by their wife and/or in-laws. I don’t think pushing them to get married younger is a very good idea. One point that has been made in a few of the previous posts is that people mature when they have to. With that in mind parents and schools should find ways to put the boys in situations where they have to mature. I don’t know exactly how to do that but I’m pretty sure that sending them to E”Y for a year with unlimited funds is not the answer.
AZ, Hello, Oomis:
How about the guys starting to go to college and get jobs (and date) right out of High school instead of learning for a few years or being told that work and college are not for proper yeshiva guys.
Guys can still learn part of the day (college does not take up the entire day, especially those geared towards the frum community). This will alleviate AZ’s problem, that the males are dating at age when they are much older than the girls.
It will also alleviate the problems that everyone else is thinking, that the boys are immature or do not have a plan in place once they get married (start dating). Usually working forces a person to mature and deal with people on a constant basis.
Here are some idea:
. Take away the stigma that is placed on those who go to college and more girls might pursue a degree instead of running to get married before they hit 20. Only so many teaching and therapist positions exist. The degree will only help them earn a parnassah so that their husbands can sit and learn even longer.
. Another year of schooling for girls? Yes, it is another year of tuition, but does it cost any more than the monthly support they would fork over to a son in law if their daughter got married at 19?
Ideas: Keep ’em coming. Klal Yisroel has a lot of talent out there. Some of these ideas just might happen and save hundreds and hundreds of girls
jewishandworking22: Good idea in theory, I think the problem is that they’re not mature enough when they finish high school to want to go to college or work especially considering the alternative of getting everything handed to them. Also college is not for everyone, I’ve never gone and hopefully never will have to go, but that’s a whole different conversation.
jphone: It seems to me that every single girl is taking some type of college courses, I don’t think the stigma of girls going to college exists anymore. Even if I’m wrong about that won’t sending the girls to more school only increase the maturity gap between boys and girls?
youdontknowme:
True. College is not for everyone. But working should be (even small odd jobs, especially for teenagers). It will provide a sense of responsibility.
However, if parents learn to say “NO” to the frivolous items that all teenagers and young adults want (i do not man a roof over the childs head and food on the table), then the children will need to work. When I finished High School my weekly breakfast money was taken away ($5 a week) and I went and found a job for a few hours a week that gave me extra spending money to do with as I pleased. It gave me a sense of responsibility and an understanding of how to budget my funds (plus the value of a dollar).
I’ve been working for 3 years now, with no debt, a blossoming 401k fund (I maxed it out every year, great tax planning), my own car, and my own apartment. This, without any help from my parents, besides paying some of my college tuition (which I’m grateful for and thank them all the time). I believe I was able to do all this by maturing, and gaining a responsibility, during my late teen-age years.
I believe that most young adults, and married kollel couples, do not understand what a budget is and the true value of a dollar. They, instead, are handed everything. This, IMO, breeds a lack of maturity.
jewishandworking22: I agree 100%, I started working right out of high school 7 years ago and it helped me more than any school possibly could have. I do sometimes wish I would have gone to E”Y for a year long all expense paid vacation (I know some people actually go to learn) I could say that I was too mature to take advantage of my parents like that but the truth is I just wasn’t smart enough (or they were too smart) to con them into it.
“It seems to me that every single girl is taking some type of college courses, I don’t think the stigma of girls going to college exists anymore. Even if I’m wrong about that won’t sending the girls to more school only increase the maturity gap between boys and girls? “
Wow! This is the first time I have ever heard there was a stigma attached to girls going to college! Usually (in my circles anyhow), the reverse is true! And if the second part of your paragraph is true (and personally I think it is), the only solution is for the BOYS to go to school and get educated, as well, because clearly you believe (and I agree) that education does tend to help with the maturation process. If the girls are better educated, which is a good thing, and the boys are not educated, yes, I do believe it would highlight the maturity gap between them.
oomis1105, the stigma is since most colleges have co-ed classes. SO in my typical real BY type class, not a single girl goes to college for that reason. Many pple that want to further their education either opt to take the Sara Schenirer course or Raizel Rite college courses, since these are done in frum, only female classes and I believe the professors are all female as well.
Some friends have taken accounting or other college courses online, for the same reason, to avoid sitting through endless co-ed classes and mingling with boys. These friends have gotten very recognized degrees landing them up with lucrative jobs.
I understand that you cannot become a dentist, surgeon or sonographist this way, but many pple are willing to give up those titles to avoid spending many years in college type enviroments.
I see. I would never have thought people would actually stigmatize the girls, though. But it certainly is not a bad idea for those who wish to refrain from mingling, to go through the venues that you mention. They do, realize, don’t they, that in the real world where they will presumably earn a living at those lucrative jobs, that mingling is often a necessity? How do they prepare for that eventuality?
Why must mingling be an eventuality?
To avoid the “real world” workplace necessity of mingling, many BY girls take up professions that permit them to remain in a frum environment, e.g. special ed, therapy, nursing, ob/gyn sonographer, or work independently in their chosen fields, as a social worker, etc.
These options also offer part-time work, so the women can raise their families.
oomis1105, I work in a mixed, high pressured office. My boss is frum, so the room I sit in has only female workers in it. Most of the communication is through Instant messaging with the rest of the workers and with my boss its mostly e-mail. My boss clearly explained to the non religious men in the office that the girls are not allowed to chit chat with them for religious purposes. Though sometimes there are guys that try and we just answer yes, no..etc
I have a workmate that got a diff job, because she felt the level of tznius was not up to par.
There are some women that are very sensitive to tznius in the workplace. I respect it.
For the record, Tomim, all of the professions you mentioned, include mingling to some extent with the outside world, which include the HUSBANDS of the pregnant women, male teachers and parents of their special needs students, etc. People who work for OTHER people, do not get to choose their clients. They get assigned to projects, to patients, to students, etc. and if they do not like the assignment, they are free to seek other employment. In this day’s economic tenor, that is not a particularly smart option, when one already has a job, B”H. It is really time for all of us to cash a reality check.
Poster, you are lucky, and you presuppose that ALL frum girls are fotunate enough to have a frum boss who is equally sensitive to that issue. The reality is that most workplace environments are very different from that, and frum women have to learn how to accommodate their frumkeit to the environment and not vice versa. I am not chalilah suggesting they compromise their religious practices in any way. I AM saying, however, that they need how to PROPERLY carry on a pertinent and necessary conversation with men in their workplace, because it will usually be a part of the job deacription at some point and in some manner.
Many years ago I worked for a jewelry firm (whoa! it was SO long ago), and the majority of employees were Satmar chassidim. They were all very pleasant to me, though I clearly was not chassidic, and that included the men who were employed there. I am not saying they encourage personal conversations, but they had to show me how to do certain tasks, and check with me about the orders, sales, etc. so conversations were always part of my day with them. Though it was business for the most, part, it still caused “mingling.” Some of it was even chit chat. You cannot work with people day in and day out, and appear unfriendly. You just have to use seichel.
Hello99
I believe these issues have been dealt with in previous posts. The two avi chai studies have different numbers for the same grade (ie 2nd grade in ’00 and 7th in ’05) the numbers that were used came from grade to grade growth in each individual study. Do you really think that the growth rate in the community is only 2%.
oomis1105, I know my office is unique and I know many pple face challenges in the work place but it is different than collage where the atmosphere is that of a comfortable classroom setting, where boys and girls just shmooze while waiting for the teacher to come in and after class.
“It seems to me that every single girl is taking some type of college courses”
Sure. They are all in some sort of excellerated program that will give them a piece of paper that allows them to teach, do some sort of special ed (most try in a yeshiva) or therapy. How many morahs, therapists and special ed jobs can the frum community support? I am referring to a professional degree that may take 3-4 years to complete in a college or university (not raizel wright and the like), which girls should have plenty of time to complete prior to marriage given that our leadership suddenly doesnt want them dating until 22 anyway.
“I don’t think the stigma of girls going to college exists anymore.”
Tell that to most girls who go to NYU, Parsons, Baruch and many other schools not named Touro, or some fly by night accelerated program.
“Even if I’m wrong about that won’t sending the girls to more school only increase the maturity gap between boys and girls?”
Not sure about maturity, but will certainly widen the educational gap 🙂
I went to college, and the lessons I learned in interpersonal relations, how to speak to an eclectic group of people, proved invaluable to me in later years. We need to stop ghettoizing and insulating our kids, because this next generation is ILL-equipped for dealing with the secular world, and they WILL have to, whether you agree or not (even if it is to apply for Section 8). They will have job interviews, doctor visits, hospitalizations, service people, business dealings, even if it the business they inherited from Momma and Poppa, and they had BETTER know how to speak properly to all these people and not sound like uneducated socially awkward fools.
As to the on-line and accelerated “courses” – please, we ALL know what those are. Would you really want your tonsils taken out by someone who completed an on-line degree in MEdicine? (Yeah, Yeah, I know there probably is not one – YET!)
Oomis “They will have job interviews, doctor visits, hospitalizations, service people, business dealings, even if it the business they inherited from Momma and Poppa, and they had BETTER know how to speak properly to all these people and not sound like uneducated socially awkward fools.”
Pple can actually go to job interviews, doctor visits, and apply for section 8 without going to collage, and without sounding like “uneducated socially awkward fools”!!
I am not anti collage, I just don’t believe that everyone has to go in order to succeed in life and in order to interact with the secular society.
Jphone: You may be right, most of the girls are in schools like Touro which is a whole different situation than typical non-jewish colleges. I really don’t think it’s necessary for the girls to get more educated, the boys need to have some responsibilities. Honestly to me education is not very important when looking for a girl, in some ways I even see too much education as a negative. I may be biased b/c I never went to college and I hate when I hear that a girl is looking for a college educated guy. I know a lot of college educated guys and IMHO I’m better off than most of them in both general knowledge and financially.
I’m not directing this at any particular person, b/c I’ve seen many posters do this BUT when arguing about college it doesn’t help to spell it wrong, there is no A in College.
Helllo99
I do believe that the growth rate is that high and likely even (4%-4.5%) higher based on work done by other people(using a stricter definition of yeshivish)I used the Avi Chai study bec it is readily available.
Re the 5% more boys born the relevant question is how many more marriageable boys than girls are there at the age 20. As boys have a higher mortality rate particularly in the teenage years, the ratio of boys to girls at age 20 is closer to 103:100 (according to the cdc if my memory serves me correctly – It has been a while since I looked it up). Presumably in the frum community that ratio is higher due to a lower rate if high risk activities. There is also the morbidity rate which is also higher among boys. The point is that 5% at birth is not 5% at marriage. Taking everything into account I would the number at about 8%.
I believe the 13% AZ mentioned was based on an actual tally of girls still single at the point where there are relatively few corresponding boys – you can ask him to be sure.
Regardless of the precise number and reason for it lowering the age gap will help.
mox – what hat did you pull those numbers for the growth rate out of? hello99’s point about the figures for the growth rate are far more reasonable.
And what hat did you pull that young Frum males have a statistically significantly higher mortality rate? (And a higher morbidity rate.) The child mortality rate in the frum community is low for both males and females, and the difference between them would appear to be statistically insignificant.
YDKM, you are right, you are probably somewhat biased because you didn’t go to college. Truthfully, most college-educated girls prefer the same in boys, unless they really want only a learning boy. Girls AND boys need to be educated. I don’t agree that it isn’t so important. If all Jews felt that way, we would have no frum doctors,lawyers,. accountants, businessmen, teachers, etc. And we SORELY need frum people in those professions, if only to keep the rest of the world on their toes. I do agree that higher education is NOT for everybody. Some people cannot hack it and others may be getting into a profession where the education is irrelevant, i.e. working in their family business, where it is more important to learn the business from inside itself. But the truth is, nothing is certain in life, and it can only benefit the person who is better-educated than the one who is not.
Oomis1105: I didn’t say education wasn’t important, of course we need jewish doctors, lawyers, etc. What I am saying is that for a girl to only go out with a guy who is college educated is foolish, going to college doesn’t make you educated any more than going to the Mir makes you a masmid. I work with a lot of people who are college educated and the majority of them are barely holding on to their jobs, of course they probably wouldn’t even have a job if they didn’t go to college so college is good for most people. I fail to see how not going to college has hurt me, except in the narrow minded opinions of some college educated people. I’ve known from a young age what I want to do and I’ve educated myself in the areas that I need to be educated in. IMO going to college, unless I made my parents pay for it, would have hurt me. I also don’t believe it’s a coincidence that so many billionaires dropped out of school and that the average net worth of forbes 400 members without a college degree is higher than those with college degrees. If people want to look down on me for not going to college, that’s ok, I expect to be too busy counting my money to care.
YDKN, I agree with your second sentence totally. If not going to college has not hurt you financially, socially, emotionally, etc. then clearly you are successful in your endeavors. Many young men are not, unfortuinately. And I really hope you are among the Fortune 500 success stories as well (I am NOT being sarcastic – I really wish this for you). I feel education is important for many reasons, but primarily education is supposed to prepare us for making a living in the future, and anyone who can make a good living without that education, is ahead of the game.
Oomis, I agree with you, the problem I have is the close-mindedness on both sides. It doesn’t matter if someone went to college or not, what matters is that they are educated in some way and have a plan to support their family.
Those who have a family business to go into, are lucky and may not need college to earn a parnassah others do not, and need an education to adequately suppport a family. Not all family businesses can support an entire family either. What’s important is that the person has the ability to support a family and more importantly, there is not a negative attitude towards those whose hishtadlus means going to college. Boys and girls. Especially girls who now that “we” don’t want them dating for several years will have to find something to occupy their time.
jphone, it’s not only those with family businesses that can get by without a college education, there are lots of ways to make a living. I happen to think that college is good for most people but not all and there should not be a negative attitude towards those that don’t go to college, they aren’t necessarily uneducated. I don’t think it’s fair to the girls to make them wait a few years and go through even more education, they are already far more educated than most of the boys. Why not have the boys start some type of college/work program straight after high school so they will be ready at a younger age?
Youdontknowme:
No I don’t. I don’t believe you understand me, either. I don’t disagree with anything you write in your latest post. All I’m saying (or trying to anyway) is that there are legitimate reasons why people may go to college. All I was adding, is that if there is a serious effort to encourage the dating of “older girls” say 21+ then girls younger than 21 will have to find other ways to occupy their time since getting married and starting a family is not what we apparantly want them doing. I suspect that girls who otherwise may not have, may now go to college simply to fill their time, and if there will be a stigma against such girls, then nobody will date than at 21 anyway, so we are no better off than we are now. Probably worse off.
jphone, I wasn’t arguing with anything you said, I was just making the point that just as there should be no stigma involved with going to college, there should also be no stigma associated with not going to college. The only thing I don’t agree with you on is about not wanting girls to start a family until they are 21+, I don’t think it helps anyone to keep girls 18-21 from trying to get married. Everyone should start dating when they are ready, IMO we focus way too much on age.
Hello99
I believe we are confusing two different types of growth rate. There is population growth rate (PGR) that is the growth in the overall population. This is what is referred to in the CIA statistics. This is calculated by taking the total population at the beginning of the period subtracting the population at the end of the period and dividing by the pop at the beginning.
The number relevant to us is not the population growth rate but the growth in the birth rate. this number is calculated by taking births from one year subtracting the previous years births and dividing by the previous years births. As I am sure you can imagine the second number will tend to be significantly higher than the first.
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