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What did you think of the article in this week’s Binah magazine about older singles. The implication was clearly that the source of the problem is not age-gap related etc, rather personal to the individual single.
I think that if all singles in the shidduch parsha would do that kind of thoughtful cheshbon from the beginning, there would be far fewer divorces.
Kudos to Binah for highlighting a very real fact- many older singles are older singles because they failed to resolve their own issues. Instead of letters from older singles saying “don’t insult me by telling me my issues, just have sympathy”, Binah publishes an article where the girls actually work on those issues.
Sound interesting, I’ll B”H check it out!
Jothar, what about the BOYS working on THEIR issues?????
It’s not the age gap?! Shhh. Don’t tell AZ.
Just because Binah gave their (and whoever did the research for them) point of view, doesn’t mean it’s Toras Moshe.
Whenever I read an article of this type (i.e. singles who fail to work through their issues, which are holding them back from shidduchim), I always wonder, how many older singles WROTE these articles? Some probably-married author sits in his or her seat and decides what the “real problem” is. Nice.
I believe the problem is that we have made our own shidduch crisis, and by the time some of our children (who have not yet found the right one) realize that the presently accepted process is NOT working for them, their window of opportunity (age-wise) has narrowed considerably. NOW they have to completely re-think their ideology of what constitutes a good shidduch, and recognize that at age 30 + in the FRUM world, an appropriate shidduch might possibly be someone who was married and divorced or widowed, with or without children, maybe not “the look” they were always thinking they wanted, and possibly very different from what they always envisioned Prince Charming or Super-Model to be. We tend to get more realistic in what attracts us, as we get a little older.
When I was a young dater, I didn’t even want to HEAR of a guy who could not sing. I come from a family of chazzonim, and our shabbos table was always filled with harmonious zmiros. We sang together all the time at home and jokingly referred to ourselves as the Von Shlepp Family singers (for anyone who does not watch tv or movies, that is a pun on the Von Trapp Family who were made famous in the movie “The Sound of Music”). After many years of searching for my own personal “Shloime Dachs” (well in those years it was more like “The Rabbis’ Sons”), I ended up marrying a phenomenal guy who is tone deaf! Had I not adjusted my thinking when I realized he loved music but couldn’t carry a tune in a basket, I would have lost out on the greatest gifts of my life – my husband, children, and grandchildren, kinehora. I was only 26 when that realization hit me. It takes some people longer.
Not every single has that epiphany when they are in their late 20s, and even in their 30s. But it is a far cry to trying to help someone expand his/her way of thinking, to making them feel guilty for something that has MANY components and causes, and not just some “issues” that some, but not all, of them might have.
Oomis Von Shlepp – OMgosh – didn’t we go to Bais Yaakov together??? AAAAIIIIEEEEEEE!!!! I can’t believe I found you!!!!!!!!!!!
😉
Oomis, I sometimes wonder the same thing. Who writes these articles? Not just shidduch articles but any book featured about children going off the derech, older singles, divorced couples…etc. But then again, the articles come out “good” when written by someone that has “been there, done that”…
Of the 150 plus dates I’ve made this year, many involving singles 25+, I see guys having more and bigger “issues” than girls. And I must add, there is NO one with NO issues.
i dont know about specific articles and books, but i assume that, for the most part, writers and authors go to the source if they are going to try to quote something. the binah articles (about older siblings and about older singles) seemed to me to have been a composite of the feelings of a few different people involved in the given situation. i dont think it would do ANY situation justice to just write out of your own head. even for a book, one must do research on the topic, which would involve speaking to a few different people involved in a particular situation.
I didnt read the article… Can someone tell me what sort of “issues” they were talking about?
Thanks.
“Oomis Von Shlepp – OMgosh – didn’t we go to Bais Yaakov together??? AAAAIIIIEEEEEEE!!!! I can’t believe I found you!!!!!!!!!!!”
LOL!!!! (sorry, but nope)
I have read too MANY articles of this type, and they all say the same thing. So unless the writer of the Binah article was unusually insightful, and unless there is a way to verify that (s)he actually spoke to the singles whose ostensible observations are noted, and unless the number of singles who were interviewed is large enough so that the “evidence” is not skewed in a particular direction, I am leery of accepting it at face value. Remember that information can be manipulated to “support” almost any particular bias.
Feh, must have been a different Oomis Von Shlepp! Besides, I forgot, I didn’t go to Bais Yaakov, LOL… 😉
So, back to the subject, I wonder about the expectation that the wife is “in charge” of the shalom bayis of the house. I wonder if that gives some husbands, in their minds, a “free pass” not to work on themselves, because “it’s his job to learn and her job to run the house.” Anyone?
This is a “zeh vezeh goreim”. Lemashal, a mediocre person has a much easier time getting a job at 4% unemployement than at 10% unemployment. With the inbalance in the shidduch dating numbers, the girls who haven’t found their bashert need to invest effort to figure out what is going wrong, and what they can do to solve it.I’m married because a veteran shadchan pointed out to my wife that her complaints about me were the kind coming from girls 10 years older, meaning the nonsensical issues that help make older singles older singles. Of course there is a shidduch crisis. But many times, there is a reason why the remaining ones are there. Shaya Ostrov writes in his book on shidduchim that many people say they haven’t met the right one. Many times, the right one they haven’t met is themselves. working on oneself can turn mediocre people into good people and good people into great people. Shidduch crisis or no shidduch crisis, I’m not sure why people are opposed to recommending self-improvement to older singles. We have no problem recommending refresher courses and skills improvement to the unemployed. Why not do the same to the unmarried?
Admittedly, it’s much easier to blame the system than to admit that you are human with areas of weakness. That is why what these girls are doing is so courageous and laudable.
“Many times, the right one they haven’t met is themselves. “
Great line, even if I only partly agree with the rest of your post. Guys have as much nonsense to work on as do girls. The reason people are opposed to recommending self-improvement to older singles is very simple. It is very insulting and presupposes there IS something wrong with them. If it was your daughter having someone make that observation/recommendation to her, you would feel very bad (don’t say you wouldn’t, it’s easy to say anything, unless you are really nogaya l’inyan by watching your child chalilah grow up to be single in her 30s).
All of this might be true of SOME singles, but I think it is both simplistic and unfair to put that type of emotional burden on singles as a group. Many wonderful young women, and men too, are simply not meeting the right people for them, and it has nothing to do with the need for self-improvement, but more to do with bad timing, mazel, their yichus and money or lack thereof, their connections,their physical appearance and personalities (which may or may not be able to be altered in a positive way) and (may I repeat it?) their MAZEL. I really do not get why it is so hard for some people to understand this. It seems very clear to my friends and me when we talk about young people whom we know who are not married.
Agreed, a lot of it is mazel. Parnassah is also mazel, but we still must do our hishtadlus. If I recall correctly, you are pro-college, even though parnassah is dependent on mazel, since mazel is also dependent on hishtadlus.
Totally correct, I am very much pro higher education and getting prepared for a real profession. And our hishtadlus is very important in all areas, but sometimes one has to simply knwo the right people in order to get a foot in the door for a job, and all the polishing up of his resume, dressing neatly, working on his people skills, etc, will not get him that foot int he door, though it might help him a great deal to MAINTAIN a good job, once he gets it. Money will not fall out of the sky, and neither do shidduchim. If girls are davening for themselves and others, going to all singles events, but the same boys are there over and over (and they may have already dated some of them), they accept most, if not all, suggestions that are made to them,and are signed onto the frum dating websites and accepting those shidduchim, then they ARE doing their hishtadlus. Yes, some need to work on their personalities and people skills, as well as be more realistic about themselves and about the guys, but that is not true of all, and for anyone to imply that it is (author, lecturer – anyone), does a great disservice to the other girls who are doing their best. It is onaas devarim to say such things to them.
Like everything else, these singles represent a sampling of older singles. I guess we can never really get an accurate picture without speaking to every older unmarried person. Bottom line, may Hashem bring all single people of whatever age, together with their basherter, ASAP, so they can get on with the mitzvah of building a bayis ne’eman b’Yisroel.
Who said they were perfect? No one but Hashem is perfect. And it is not coddling a grown woman or man to refrain from hurting them by telling them how much they need to work on themselves to improve themselves. What right does anyone have to do that? That may be true for SOME adults single or not, but to imply that is why so many if not most are still single is wrong. I know a lovely young woman about to turn 29. She is pretty, has a warm and lovely personality, is a great conversationalist, witty, great cook and baker, not a size 2-4, but not fat, either,and she is set up with one inappropriate shidduch after another. One was borderline developmentally disabled. She does not have to “work” on herself and change her outlook on what she wants. She wants an ehrliche, non-Yeshivish, modern but machmir frum, down-to-earth guy, who is warm and loving, has a spirit of fun and humor as well as responsibility, and wants to raise a family in a Torah environment that also includes the secular world. I would venture a guess that many of our singles want the same thing. Instead, she meets guys who are DECIDEDLY Yeshivish (and after she spoke to one shadchan about what she is looking for, he set her up with a guy who at 32 is still in Yeshivah, with no parnassah). Please don’t tell me she needs to adjust her thinking or work on herself. She is a terrific young woman, and everyone who knows her adores her, but they just don’t know guys for her.
There may be some young people who could benefit from what you are saying, but I doubt that this is true for most of them. And it is unfair to say that it is. If they refused to go out with a dark-haired girl because they only want a blonde, or a guy who is 5’7″ because they want 6’2″, then you would be right.
It is Kind of mind boggling how people are commenting without having read the article. The article is from ONE older single, not a interview with a bunch of different girls
That being said- She makes a very smart point that good coaching could help certain older singles find their zivug.
How on earth this relates to the overall problem is hard to fathom. Clearly there are some older boys and thus some of the older girls can and IMY”H will get married. Good coaching will definately help. To solve the larger problem, especially going forward, we need to even out the numbers by closing the age gap.
hello99, she is not sending mixed messages, she has told me exactly what she says to them, and in fact showed me her profile on-line, to see if I thought she HAD been clear enough. I found what she posted to be very straightforward and honest. She specifies she does not want a boy who is sitting and learning, but rather, one who sets time to learn on a regular basis, and has a full-time parnassah in his chosen field for which he was secularly educated. They somehow do not believe that she is serious, apparently.
My own daughter has had a problem with both private shadchanim and frum websites that consistently redt shidduchim to her with guys who have dogs or are real outdoorsy types, when she has specified she is deathly afraid of dogs and is not Miss Nature Girl. It only shows that the shadchanim either really are not paying attention or simply do not care, because they KNOW better, and if she likes the guy it won’t matter. But it DOES matter, because guys who have dogs (and their families) do not get how someone can be so scared of them, and insist on “exposing” her to dogs “for her own good.” Now I agree it would be wonderful if my daughter could get over that fear for lots of reasons having nothing to do with shidduchim. But it is not up to a stranger to decide what is good for her. They have to respect her enough to hear what she is saying.
This reminds me of this article I posted awhile ago
The article was good CC, but one size does not fit all. The person at the top of the maze is only good to give the rest of the folks direction, if his eyesight is good and he is seeing clearly. Not every rebbie is equipped to give good advice to every bochur (maybe the rebbie has his own tzoros in marriage), and just because one is a rebbetzin, that does not qualify her to give advice to a girl in the parsha any better than her own mother could (and her own mother at least knows her well).
On the other hand, my son’s Rebbie gave him the best advice I have heard in a while. He told him, “When it comes to dating, don’t force a relationship and don’t fight it.” That makes a great deal of seichel to me and more important, to my son.
I find when speaking with singles-boys and girls-
they dont relly know whats important in a marriage (how should they?)
so basically they have their priorities mixed up-and they look for the nice singer..a lot of money..one girl i set up,the date came late so thats a sign that hes a latecomer or farshlept or whatever….there was no way for me to explain to her things happen-
THIS IS LIFE
well she still is not married(I will not disclose how old she is) now she says if I waited so long I am not settling for second best.
From my view, the “issue” is not age gaps, shadchanim or available pool of people to date. We (all involved in shidduchim are meant) ask to many questions and too many dates are shot down because the answers did not match the script we wanted to hear, or the voice inflections seemingly implied something else, or we couldnt find answers etc… Stop asking so many questions, go out on the date and find out for yourself.
With very few exceptions, I have asked people not to use my name as a shidduch reference. Too many people have misconstrued too many things I did or did not say that shidduchim have been broken off or dates not gone on. For example.
Caller: I understand you know shprintze yentas family. What are they like?
Me: (having answered the phone after an hour of studying with my child for a chemistry test, and am all frazzled). Yes, I know the family, they are neighbors for several years. Very nice family.
Caller: Very nice? I notice you didnt say wonderful, why?
Me: Because very nice and wonderful mean the same thing to me, and very nice is what popped into my head at this moment. If it makes you feel better, they are a wonderful family, absolutely wonderful. (It was all downhill from there…shprintze yenta had no chance at a date with this guy, he probably figured I was hiding the fact that mr yenta was an axe murderer or something.)
Another time:
Caller. How would you describe her looks?
Me: (deliberating whether I should bother telling him that looks are in the eyes of the beholder, and then considering a tasteful way to describe a rather good looking girl, figuring it isnt appropriate for me to discuss the looks of my wifes friends, finally settling on….) “people find her to be an attractive girl”.
Caller: People? what about you, does that mean YOU dont find her attractive?
Me: With all due respect, I have a wife and this discussion is beginning to make me uncomfortable. Tell you what, why dont you make a date with her and determine for yourself since everything else apparantly meets your criteria.
OR.
Caller: Do you know Ploni?
Me. Yes, pretty well. In fact Ive known him for close to 25 years.
Caller: Great. What was he like in sleepaway camp?
Me: Hmm…lets see, camp, we were in camp xxxx…
Caller: WHAT??!??! THAT CAMP??!?!?
Me: Well, he was all of 11 years old and today he’s over 30, people change – as I’m sure you have – in 20 years.
Caller: But THAT camp?!?!?! Its hashkafos are so “krumm”.
Me. Since attending that camp, Ploni has grown as a person and as a ben torah. In fact he has learned in some of the finest yeshivos in E”Y and the USA including Brisk and Lakewood.
Caller: (Still hung up on that camp) this really throws this suggesiton for a loop.
Me: Make believe you didnt hear me thinking aloud and pass the info to the girl in question, let her date Ploni and let her decide if THAT camp is a problem for her. Who are you to decide what is or is not good for her, after all she is close to 30 herself, by the way, what relationship are you to this girl?
Caller: Her father.
Me: Well, with the way you carriers on about a camp ploni attended 20 years ago, I’m not surprised your daughter is still single, you dont let her date anyone.
Caller: (inaudible mumbling, likely something unprintable on YWN), good night. SLAM.
So, stop asking ridiculous questions. Stop infering from answers what people may or may not have meant, let boys and girls date each other and see where the “crisis” goes.
Jphone: the crisis will go as it presently does.
Boys get married,
Girls remain single.
maybe one day…..
” Actions speak louder than words, so if she dresses like a BY girl and her friends all live in Lkwd and she turns down all the YU boys because they are not “frum enough”
Where from ANY of my posts, did you EVER get the idea that she and her friends are BY girls and from Lakewood??? YU boys are unfortunately now too young for her, but from RIETS they would be frum enough (at least the RIETS that I remember from 30 years ago). Modern Orthodox Machmir means just that. Modern Orthodox, but davens in a minyan
every day, wants a boy who doesn’t miss a minyan, makes time to learn (even if an hour a day in the evening), wants to grow in his hashkafa, but also is well-educated and makes a living in a chosen field. She has specified this over and over, but keeps getting shidduchim with boys who are either black hat yeshivish and still in Beis Medrash at age 28-32, or like to go clubbing and to bars. Both types are at extremes (for want of a better word) that she is not interested in. My children have never
portrayed themselves as anything other than what they are, which is to say, eidel, balabatish, frum, but also very active in the secular world. And that is what they are looking for in spouses.
Most important, if someone specifies to a shadchan that they have a deadly fear of
something tangible, the shadchan should NOT set them up with someone who wants to bring that tangible whatever into his future home. A shadchan who does that is a fool or shows very little regard for the client he is suppsoed to be helping.
” Actions speak louder than words, so if she dresses like a BY girl and her friends all live in Lkwd and she turns down all the YU boys because they are not “frum enough”
Where from ANY of my posts, did you EVER get the idea that she and her friends are BY girls and from Lakewood??? YU boys are unfortunately now too young for her, but from RIETS they would be frum enough (at least the RIETS that I remember from 30 years ago). Modern Orthodox Machmir means just that. Modern Orthodox, but davens in a minyan
every day, wants a boy who doesn’t miss a minyan, makes time to learn (even if an hour a day in the evening), wants to grow in his hashkafa, but also is well-educated and makes a living in a chosen field. She has specified this over and over, but keeps getting shidduchim with boys who are either black hat yeshivish and still in Beis Medrash at age 28-32, or like to go clubbing and to bars. Both types are at extremes (for want of a better word) that she is not interested in. My children have never
portrayed themselves as anything other than what they are, which is to say, eidel, balabatish, frum, but also very active in the secular world. And that is what they are looking for in spouses.
Most important, if someone specifies to a shadchan that they have a deadly fear of
something tangible, the shadchan should NOT set them up with someone who wants to bring that tangible whatever into his future home. A shadchan who does that is a fool or shows very little regard for the client he is suppsoed to be helping.
How come my post appeared twice? Was it twice as good as my other ones????
You post so much, they are multiplying by themselves.
jphone, I had to laugh…
Would someone please post a list of “acceptable” camps so I don’t ruin my kids’ chances at shidduchim this summer??
*sigh*
My wife and I know a few older girls who opted to marry divorced or widowed men, rather than older single men, because they perceived the older single men to have real issues, while the divorced men just had issues getting along with a particular person. Yes, older single men have issues too.
“Boys get married,Girls remain single.”
Last few chasunas I’ve been to, the boy married a girl.
You’ve got to get over this age gap nonesense already.
jphone:
“AGE GAP nonesense……
Please explain what is nonesense or are you smarter than the 70 R”Y that signed the letter acknowledging that AGE GAP a primary cause of the present shidduch crisis.
Your are correct, every chassuna has a boy and a girl. Yet after five years almost all boys are married and many many girls remain single.
Dearest jphone: Please explain that phenomena…
Here’s a little hint population is growing B”H. Can you figure out the rest….
The age gap means there are more boys than girls. The issues issue means that the girls who are left may have more issues than the ones taken. Neither contradicts the other, and neither holds the answer to all the problems. As the goyim like to say, when you’re holding a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
Jothar:
You write- The age gap means there are more boys than girls
Incorrect
You got me. More girls than boys.
So if there are more girls than boys. Please explain how anything can be solved untill we change that equation.
“issues” The boys seem to be getting by and large with or without “issues”. Obviously if there are 10% of girls who have not shot at getting married and we have no idea who the 10% are. Girls with “issues” will likely be from the 10%. As will whatever other subjective strikes against her are.
If we solve all of the girls “issues” etc. we still have 10% who can’t get married.
Jothar: Am I missing something
AZ, there is a tremendous DIVORCE problem as well. The system works for 2 people, and then their marriage fails them. Eliminating problems holding people back from committing or staying successfully married is also a good thing. you solution will not solve that.
Jothar: is there any data that close in age shidduchim are at are in any which way related to the divorce issue??
Closing the age gap will solve the numbers problem and alleviate a host of other issues (unreasonable money demands etc.) it obviously will not solve other issues related to marriage. Nor will it solve issues related to raising children or preventing illnesses in the community etc etc
Therefore WHAT??????
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